Student rating app penalizes fifth-graders who need bathroom breaks
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So while it’s all good to discuss gamification and the dark side of these things, it’s not the apps designer that decided to negatively reinforce bathroom breaks, but their app did allow the teacher to set that up.
What other user defined settings and unintended dark patterns are out there?
The problem is how this app is designed to enforce absolute discipline and completely disregards the students need for privacy.
Can you imagine how terrible it would be if you had a bad day, were a bit distracted in school, got yelled at by the teacher, only to have your mom text you to tell you off for not behaving in school?
The app would be just as bad without the bathroom break part.
As developers / product designers we can't always hide behind our users, by claiming that we can't influence how they use our products. Some products simply encourage bad behaviour, and we should take at least some responsibility for what people do with them.
There's multiple levels of abstraction on the bathroom tracking issue. The fact that children pretty universally abuse bathroom breaks to skip class, and parents/teachers/administrators sometimes try to deal with such problems in a stupid way is only one level. The other level of abstraction, as Michael Malice puts it... "Public schools are literal prisons for children and for most people is the only time in their life they'll experience violence first hand." That might be beyond the scope of this discussion, but it's part of the culture of school that leads to kids skipping school and escalating punitive consequences.
It's encouraging and normalising a behaviour where it shouldn't, that's the problem.
I think you're extrapolating too much from a data point of one. One teacher reportedly is a busybody and reports dumb shit to parents like whether or not kids go to the bathroom.
I'm not even criticising the toilet break thing per se, just the entire concept of breaking down a kids day into little +1s and -1s. As a parent I want to know if he learnt anything, whether he enjoyed himself, that he was well behaved. A score of X doesn't help with any of those.
However, I remember teachers gamifying classroom behavior when I was a kid with points systems and rewards. Context and content matters a lot. A first grader is going to love it if their parents mention how great they did at school because they were a team player or helped a friend. A middle/high schooler will be mortified to get the same report. I would ask the teacher to stuff it if she was recording my daughter's bathroom breaks, but what if my kid was having some kind of problem where they were cutting class by taking excessive bathroom breaks? Then I'd start wanting some records.
This app presumably just leaves the ball in the parents court? If there were a problem I'd expect the teacher to be proactively dealing with it, and/or discussing it with me.
"Context and content matters a lot"
Agreed, half the problem is that this loses context.
toilet break -1
Where's the context there? Is that a problem? Normal?
I don't have a problem with gold stars and stuff, this is just depersonalising and not helpful.
The only advantage is that it provide subpoena-able data empirically proving that most teachers have it in for certain classes of students, whether they are aware of it or not. The data is ripe for both academic study and class discrimination lawsuits and the sooner the better.
Supposedly public schools in the states were created during the industrial revolution to train up obedient factory workers. Private schools before that were founded to train up a nobility steeped in hierarchy.
this
As a parent I struggle horribly not to make up arbitrary rules and then come down on them for it - it should not be part of the school bestoractise
Sounds like good practice.
Shovel: Neutral-Good (farming), Uncontrolled (it’s very unlikely you can do much harm to society with a shovel)
Backhoe: Neutral/Good (efficiency), Controlled (heavy machinery can easily kill people and damage infrastructure)
Agent Orange: Bad (imprecise, damaging, disease-inducing), Controlled (considered a chemical weapon with no legitimate societal use)
So I think that more oversight should be used in order to prevent teachers with bad and abusive efficiency strategies from, for example, downvoting children for needing to pee.
What effects does logging every micro-level event with near-instant feedback loop between teacher, pupil and parent have towards accomplishing the goals of primary school?
If you think tracking bathroom use is a "dark pattern" of this technology, what non-dark uses does it enable or enhance that previous - less capable - tools don't?
I won't do it, but I was tempted to make a TeacherDojo spoof where students in a class could award their teacher points for teaching well, and take away points when their teacher fell into bad teaching habits.
I was in school around the time RateMyProfessor came out as well. I'm surprised to hear it's still being used as well.
Why don't you start asking the school which teacher has the highest and lowest scores, and why X has the lowest score, and what plans there are to help that teacher improve. I'm sure you'll see less student getting marked down for going to the toilet then.
Because you know that if I give out a number from 1 to 10, that number is getting attached to he customer service rep I happened to be interacting with, and go into a bullshit statistical system that tells management which reps are "good" and which reps are "bad".
It's de-humanizing, lazy, and nothing good will come of it.
1. Put the highest number in every field. 2. Write up an official complaint.
IMO there's no morally justifiable middle ground; non-perfect ratings are a de-facto punishment. If someone's behavior was so reprehensible to warrant that, you should be airing some kind of grievance and going through an official process.
Why? Unnecessarily aggressive driving. Not road rage and not unsafe per-se but 10 lane changes in 3 miles, none of them smooth or signalled. Dramatically excessive perfume in the car. Neither is a safety issue; neither is worth a formal complaint to the platform; both are annoying.
For CS reps and the like, many (most?) companies using 1-10 scales treat 9 and 10 the same (promoter), 7 and 8 the same (passive), and 1-6 the same (detractor). See also “net promoter score”
But we stopped giving prizes because they generally made the children jealous, competitive or lack confidence. Our current civilization has changed, now we emphasize more on collaboration than individual performance, at least in public statements. For example we prefer to give a collective performance at the end of the year than rewarding for behavior.
"Permanent Record", is its name.
I seem to have less problem than others here about schools getting dictatorial etc, but to me the school is at least partially responsible for bringing up a functioning human being, so they do need to say what is acceptable or not. Obviously they need to do that in an acceptable way, gold stars seem like a good way. An app for recording every single detail good and bad, not so much.
"Not following instructions", "off task", "teamwork" and "great day" could mean many different things, in different contexts.
"Teamwork" could mean playing nicely along with a colleague who is bullying others out of teacher's view.
"Not following instructions" is whatever an authority wants to be.
"Off task" could mean that you're not succesfully juggling forcing yourself not to get a bathroom break while concentrating on a task.
(I may not sound like it, but I appreciate teachers and I wish they didn't need an app to justify their actions to hovering parents.)
What the hell does this have to do with education?
I have no problem with gamefication or apps like ClassDojo, but I have to say: the teacher opting to track bathroom breaks (and even apply a penalty by dint of them) comes as no surprise to me given the bizarre norms of educational institutions. It is in the shadow of these bizarre norms that we need to consider the appropriateness of scoring systems and interfaces.
I have never understood what things like hall passes, the pledge of allegiance, and double-file-by-sex lines at doors and cafeterias have to do with learning and nurturing.
They seem unambiguously oppositional.
A 5th grader (typically a 10 or 11-year old) is absolutely old enough to understand when they need to use the bathroom, walk there by themselves, and return to their classroom, picking up context clues from a capable teacher to plug back into the material without feeling (or being) left out.
Heck, many 4 year olds are capable of this.
What is the point of education if the culture of its institutions is insistent on treating students as though they are incapable of coherent thought in the first place?
I've never taught a formal class in a school, but I've worked with this age group in similar contexts. I could potentially see myself making a policy wherein, whenever a student asks to use the bathroom during class, I say: "Go ahead, but next time, please go before class starts." I would never institute any actual consequences (although, I'd follow up if I noticed something truly excessive), but I'd keep repeating the line so they remember.
Some 11-year-olds absolutely need to be reminded to use the bathroom ahead of time. Just because they're capable of not soiling themselves doesn't mean they'll actually plan ahead to avoid going at inopportune times.
The fact that this is all being quantified in an app is a separate issue. I find that problematic on a number of levels...
I see these types of arguments a lot. You're focusing on the good students and the fact that this type of thing isn't needed for them. Rather, consider that this rule is made to curb the behavior of the bad students; the ones that are taking bathroom breaks during class every day because they don't feel like being in class.
If that is the reason for the rule, then the your argument (which only applies to the children that are trying to do the right thing in the first place) doesn't have any weight.
This is an abhorrent and inappropriate judgment.
I have dealt with a lot of the people you are describing and, in many cases, found the smart, motivated, wonderful, curious, kickass students inside them.
Many, many people do not want, at 10 or 11 years of age, sit through a class full of stupid, boring, authoritarian bullshit when they can be doing something (that they perceive to be) useful, like playing minecraft or soccer or learning how to play the drums.
There is nothing "bad" about this. The "bad" is the way these people are treated.
And to be clear: by your judgment, I was a bad student. Many of us here on HN were or are, I'm sure, bad students.
My success is due in no small part to people in my life who stood up to the people casting the exact judgment you are casting here.
> I see these types of arguments a lot.
If that's true, I don't understand why you haven't learned to respond to them in an appropriate, adult manner. I realize that my tone sounds combative, but I am taking this tone because I want anyone reading this thread who might feel judged by your words to know that this is not a reasonable way to approach this subject and is not welcome in actual serious discussions of education reform.
That's because your tone is combative.
Certain things are expected of students, and some children are not willing or able to do those things. That makes them a bad student; the same way that someone that won't run would make a bad soccer player. It doesn't make them a bad person. It doesn't mean they can't become a good student by changing their behavior. But they _are_ a bad student.
You can argue that what is expected of a student should change, and you appear to be doing that in a roundabout way (by calling the current curriculum "stupid, boring, authoritarian bullshit "). But that doesn't change the fact that individuals who will/can not participate as expected with the current expectations are, by definition, bad students.
But the underlying point, obviously, is: why are students not interested in paying attention? What is wrong with these classes? We're talking about an age group whose attention is easily kept by things that are fun, exciting, interesting, engaging.
If classes aren't that, then hall passes don't help.
Honestly, this is way too much information. Why does a parent need to know the details of every minor issue in class?
I'd agree if it was about student's private life but as long as it's about classes - why should anything be hidden?
Parents protecting their child is a good thing, but only to a point. A child needs to learn how to live without protection from parents. How to interact with a boss (a teacher plays similar role in a school), how to do what a boss have asked, how to ask a boss for a favor, how to learn rules of a new boss and to adapt to them?
How a person supposedly could learn all of it, if every time when happened something that is not convenient for a child, parents would interfere, come to talk with a teacher, and insist on changing her rules on behalf of their child?
Yes, the level of monitoring is a tricky issue.
If I had reports of "toilet in class time", and it suddenly increased one month, then I could investigate why - bullying, UTI, boredom? Which helps me to care for my child.
Now, the likelihood is that I'll notice these things earlier than that, but as children grow they usually become experts at hiding things, like being bullied. As parents aren't in school, and teachers can't see everything, and it's not always possible to have a chat with the teacher, then some monitoring can be useful to aid parenting.
For example, we get an absence record each month, that's useful monitoring that infringes on a child's independence. But it's also vital data for safety, and to ensure a child is getting educated. If my older kid missed an afternoon without my permission, that's no biggy (we all have bad days), but if they miss time often then there are problems; if a younger kid is out of school by themselves that might be a serious safety issue.
This efforts is a good thing against parental anxiety. When parents did something they might feel that they fulfilled their role of parents and stop there. When they got information for free, they didn't do anything yet as a parents, they may feel obliged to do something. There is a good chance that they would be unable to find a constructive thing they could do, so they might do a random thing.
This means these parent should be educated about the proper way to educate children. They should be taught to choose wisely when to impose consequences and what kind of consequences that should be.
The cycle repeats as long as it has to for us to see it, accept responsibility and build a better society where it doesn't need to happen.
I was a sensitive kid getting bullied at one point and had a horrid 2nd grade teacher. Reflecting on her behavior as an adult, it was apparent that I was just a problem for her in her last year before retirement (there was a "Miss So-and-so is retiring" party we had to have as a class for her at the end of the year).
The bullying was bad enough that she would just remove me from the class and have me work alone in the library because I'm certain that it was easier than the alternative. This happened probably 30+ times until one day I broke down and started to cry because it was just a rough day, and I just felt very alone.
Librarians noticed, teacher notified, yelled at by the teacher privately for "being a disturbance", I then told my parents, Dad got insanely angry at the situation (rightfully so), and we met with the principal. I remember sitting outside of the office listening to my father destroy the guy verbally. I cried then too.
After the fact I didn't have to go to the library alone anymore, but she literally wouldn't respond verbally to me at times. I remember not being called on when I had the answer, being the only kid with a hand up. She just ignored me unless she absolutely HAD to respond (IMO abusive behavior towards a child). My grades went down and I was pulled from the gifted programs never to get back in. All of this happened within one school year.
I am horrified of what a teacher like that would have done to me with this tool.
One day my teacher was trying to punish a troublesome student, who I only recall because of this incident. She meant to move his pin to red, but accidentally grabbed mine and moved it instead. I, instantly, burst into tears because I had nothing wrong, and still recollect my feelings of outrage decades later.
I can only imagine trying to work through social credit bureaucracy as a child to correct mistakes, or understand outcomes.
We had laminated apples on the wall, and if we were bad we got a worm sticker stuck on it for a week, we called it getting a "wormy apple".
One day I was listening to an audio book with headphones and didn't hear the teacher call us back, so all at once she snatched the headphones off me, asked me why I don't listen, and gave me a wormy apple. I remember it to this day, I felt so wronged because I was doing an "approved activity" and felt I was punished for it. Seeing the worm on my apple made me cry and I never listened to audio books in that classroom again.
So I don't know if making that sort of stuff electronic will be better or worse but I know I didn't like systems like that at all.
Mine had us color a bunny rabbit. I grabbed a crayon (purple) and colored it. I think I had seen a rabbit on Sesame Street of that color, and the 8 crayon pack doesn't allow for subtlety. She grabbed it from me, threw it in the garbage, and told me to color another one because that isn't a "proper color" for a rabbit. I slid the paper back and said something to the effect it's already colored because bunnies are white. Spent the rest of the hour sitting in a chair in the corner staring at the wall. Dad was "concerned" when he picked me up, and laughing in the truck. I was just very angry.
I can only imagine what a points system would have done to me in school. I'd of probably been done in 1st grade because of that stupid volcano.
Really, that's the issue with school in a nut-shell. Just like I want to walk into work Monday morning and have a routine day, so do teachers and administrators.
This technological issue just appears to be another symptom of a sick system, one that favors ease of life for administrators and teachers, that and hitting test metrics than for a good, quality education for children.
We've seen it before, zero-tolerance. Church it up, "it's about holding everyone to the same standard," avoiding bias, etc. Well, it's bullshit. The reality is everyone teacher and administrator exercises some degree of prosecutorial discretion, completely invalidating any claim of their lack of tolerance, but on that occasion they throw the book at you they just say "Zero-Tolerance" and that's that.
We build and buy systems that favor ease of use, but not good outcomes and there is simply no accountability for good outcome.
ClassDojo's main use case is to reward behavior that's usually difficult to reward, like "Sally played well with others today!" It encourages the small things.
This is an interesting use case of the platform by the teacher, and I suspect the outcome will simply be the teacher won't use this penalty anymore.
I've never even seen this points system used. Its a communication tool between teachers and parents. My kids are 2nd and 1st graders, so maybe it changes as kids get older?
My biggest complaint - there is a lack of standardization by schools on what app the teachers use. In the past year, I've had to install/set-up Class Dojo, Bloomz, ClassTag - which all pretty much do the same thing, and now all have info and pics of my kids. I never even heard of the apps until the teachers said they were using it.
So e-mail?
It funnels government education money into VC pockets?
Surely nobody really thinks this is about improving education?
You are subjecting your children to constant surveillance and constant scrutiny, for what? Improvement on what? Let them be children, for crying out loud. Don't intervene all the time.
I guess with no more erasers to clap, this is how we keep kids in line?
Sharing this information with parents, however, seems inappropriate, as does placing a negative value on normal events like using the restroom.
Gamefication in the classroom is potentially a good thing in some cases. Certainly a bad thing in others, like this one.
Adding that to a computerized point system is what makes it seem creepy...
I also remember so much downtime during class that I would regularly sleep in school. So the idea that bathroom breaks need to be some scarce resource is ridiculous. Not to mention any time you need that privacy whether it's GI issues or adjusting your colostomy bag or whatever.
Bathroom usage is of zero concern to an instructor unless it becomes an abnormal pattern. And if it is, the interest should be out of a concern for health, unless demonstrated otherwise, not a concern for discipline.
Class 1 → Class 2 → Class 3 → Recess → Class 4 → Lunch → Class 5 → Class 6
Fourth grade and under, insert Milk Break between 2 and 3. But that's it.
If there's six classes + lunch + recess, none of those classes should be longer than an hour. Remember, school is usually seven hours or less, and you need some time between each class for the kids to get from point A to point B.
That class based split appears in middle school, which is Grade 7 onwards.
You can certainly construct a scenario where this bathroom policy makes zero sense, but you can also construct one where it's a bit more logical. I feel like we're missing a lot of context here, and absent information to the contrary, I'd rather assume the best than jump to outrage.
Wealthy individuals counteract this with extensive (and expensive!) private tutoring.
Where I grew up, elementary school was done in one classroom and taught by one teacher. There were no breaks between classes because we didn't have separate classes. I'm not convinced this is the best system, but I am convinced ~2 hours is too long to go without a bathroom break.
Basically, schools are hell.
If your school district mandates Dojo, move districts or homeschool. If it's optional, meet with them and make sure they understand they are not under any circumstances to use it on your child and you deny consent. It is abusive software and its use should be banned by law if we want to have good schools and an educated populace in decent mental health. Constant nagging over minor issues destroys psychological well being. Imagine living with a partner who used such an app, or working for a boss. Anyone would agree that would be an abusive situation. Now why would you subject your children to such a thing.
Better title:
"Teacher penalizes sutudent for bathroom break using "ClassDojo" App."