Comment by ShabbyDoo | Hacker News Reader

Comment by ShabbyDoo | Hacker News Reader

When considering only commodity vehicles (a Honda Accord or whatever), the motivation of most urban renters is likely a low friction way to go to Costco on a Saturday, etc. without the cost/bother of owning a vehicle. However, the motivation for someone to pay more to rent, say, a BMW for the afternoon is quite different and probably not one which would give the BMW's owner warm fuzzies.

It seems that Getaround might actually be preferable to traditional car rental methods because of the low friction associated with the transaction. Enterprise Rent-A-Car will pick you up, but you have to go back to the retail location to fill-out paperwork and drop off the kid who brought the car to you. It would be so much easier to just use a car already located in your building's parking garage.

I looked at the Getaround site and couldn't find any details about how the in-car gizmo works. This support thread has some clues:

http://support.getaround.com/discussions/questions/8-power-f...

I'm a bit bothered by the statement "without giving too much away..." Security through obscurity? I presume that the CarKit does not integrate with the vehicle ignition? If not, must a person who rents his vehicle leave an ignition key in the vehicle? If so, the iPhone app implicitly becomes a location tool for easy-to-steal vehicles. Just smash a window and start up the car. If the carkit does indeed replace the need for a physical key, I suppose the security concerns would be no worse than those associated with aftermarket remote starters. It is bothersome that Getaround is not more forthcoming about the technology.

Zipcar seems to be fairly successful despite leaving the key in the car.

Interesting as I did not know the key was left in the vehicle. Does the strong branding of the car help them out because it reduces the potential resale value? I perceive most stolen cars are "parted out", so this shouldn't matter much though.

I think a lot of the commenters here are overestimating the probability of car theft.

"The National Insurance Crime Bureau (NICB) reports that 2009 marked the nation's sixth consecutive year of declining vehicle thefts in the United States. U.S. motor vehicle thefts declined 17.1 percent from 2008 to 2009—the largest annual decline in decades."

http://www.rmiia.org/auto/auto_theft/statistics.asp

Also "premium" cars from zipcar have pretty discreet branding - just some on the rear bumper, nothing on the doors.

Most of this decline will be related to better in-vehicle security systems rather than a more obedient public.

The interesting stats are the thefts of older vehicles - which are way higher than new vehicles because of the crude anti-theft measures in 80's and 90's cars.

More likely is that there is no other way.

Modern car security usually involves a coded key. The key is coded to an immobiliser computer, which is then coded to the main engine computer. Sometimes the key works by RFID. Without the correct combination of key/immobiliser/engine computer the car will never start. You can't just replace the key - it has to be ordered via the dealer and programmed to match the car - same goes for all the other computers. You can't just take out an engine computer from car A and put it into car B and expect it to work. Each is encrypted to only talk to it's matching set of key/receiver/immobiliser computer/engine computer - subsitute one out and nothing will work. The actual ignition lock is immaterial - and a lot of newer cars have done away with it altogether and just have a slot for the key and a start button instead.

So for someone like Zipcar etc, it wouldn't be economically feasible to try and develop new hardware for the car that adapted/circumvented the proprietary immobiliser security systems in modern cars. Much cheaper and easier to leave the original key in a locked box.

As for parting out- you're probably correct. Without an original set of keys, you're not going to get the car going again, because the only way to get a key is to apply to the factory for one. And they keep a list of stolen vehicles in the same way cellphone companies know which handsets have been stolen.

The flipside of all this - if you're purchasing a used car and only one key is available start asking questions why. If you go to the dealer to purchase a replacement key you might find out that the car has been blacklisted and no more keys are available. Cars that have been carjacked or stolen by stealing the owners bag with keys in it generally don't have the spare keys available.

It sounds like Zipcar has spent the money to have its own ignition tech.

http://www.zipcar.com/how/technology

My understanding is that ZipCar locks/unlocks the doors, probably by interfacing with the car body computer which handles lock/unlock functions.

The engine ignition security system is usually totally separate from the lock/unlock feature despite both functions being accessed from the same piece of hardware (ie the key/keyfob). So my guess is they've interfaced with the lock/unlock system but not the ignition system, which is why the key is still kept in the car for starting.

It's a bit more sophisticated than that--the keys won't start the car without the RFID Zipcard in the vehicle. So they've definitely tapped into the ignition system.

http://www.zipcar.com/how/faqs/faq?subject=how_to_get_keys

yes, thinking about it even if the ignition system is impossible to adapt to, you can still easily disable it by interrupting the power supply to the immobiliser. It's easy to further disable the ignition but not easy to circumvent the ignition. My guess is that their RFID system probably closes a relay in the power supply for the existing OEM ignition system. That way you couldn't start the car without the correct RFID card, but you still need the key.

"Malloy adds that Zipcar's proprietary security systems are installed throughout its fleet to prevent car theft."

http://directmag.com/mag/marketing_zipcar_goes_extra/

Googling around suggests that this involves the zipcard - if you don't use it to enter you can't start the car. There's no real reason that other companies can't do something similar.

Also (and perhaps I shouldn't say this) I often see additional zipcards in the trunks of zipcars - by the spare tire - presumably for use by service personnel.

I think you're right that outright theft of the car is unlikely. But the advantage that Zipcar has over this p2p system is Zipcar personnel can keep a log of everything related to a vehicle - the condition of all of its parts and a full inventory of its accessories. This also allows Zipcar to make final decisions about who has caused damage or theft. In a p2p system, there is no central authority to adjudicate these issues - which requires relying on the word of either the owner or the renter to decide who is responsible.

A solution might be to have the CarKit wired in to disarm the engine immobilizer, much like car key security fobs do already. This would let you then leave a "normal" non-security ignition key in the car without too much worry.

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