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Comment by lukaa | Hacker News Reader

For practical purpose does it matter? It detects non-water particles(pollution) in twice higher ratio than in tap water and plastic bottled water is sold as way purer than tap water with 1000 time higher price. Basically it's scam.

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There's a lot of glass bottled water too, at least in Germany.

And plenty of aluminum cans of water as well, not to mention aluminum recycling is perhaps the most implemented recycling effort of any materials.

Aluminum cans are typically lined with plastic.

But it doesn't get released as easily. I've read a few weeks ago a thread on an ultralight backpacking forum where they were discussing cooking in beer can. They were pulling spec docs and Lab tests of how much plastic gets released if they cook in those cans. The results was that they release about 0.01% of FDA limit. So, according to ultralight backpackers on that forum, it should be safe.

I'm not really sure how much glass or aluminum containers would matter to the fundamental point?

The plant that purifies the water and puts it into the glass and aluminum containers almost certainly uses plastic or rubber tubing in its machinery. So you'd likely get some plastic particles transferred there as well. In the end, I'd be willing to bet that tap water has fewer micro plastics than water bottled in glass or aluminum.

Problem, of course, is that your municipality likely uses some form of metal piping to get water to your tap. Which, depending on what all that is, could mean elevated lead levels etc.

It's a tough problem.

> Problem, of course, is that your municipality likely uses some form of metal piping to get water to your tap. Which, depending on what all that is, could mean elevated lead levels etc.

Not a metallurgist, but I am pretty sure there are metal alloys that do not contain lead.

In a similar vein, does anyone know of any conclusive studies on the safety of PEX plumbing wrt releasing microplastics into our drinking water. My home is primarily PEX. It would be nice to know if I'm slowly poisoning my family.

(that's carbonated water in glass bottles)

Since the parent comment says "Germany" I can say with confidence: We have both, so that qualifier is not true unless you specifically buy exactly carbonated water. It is true though that for whatever reason that I just cannot comprehend the majority of water sold in bottles in this country (Germany) is carbonated. nor can I understand why so much of it is sold - tap water is very good in most places. I know a water engineer at the local municipal water company and she too only drinks tap water. On the other hand so many Germans are extremely fixated on price, it's even more incomprehensible how irrational it is that my fellow Germans buy so much bottled water. I googled for "why do Germans buy bottled water instead of tap water" and unsurprisingly found that I'm not the first one to ask that question (first link of several, as an example, which sums it up pretty well: https://www.telegraph.co.uk/expat/expatlife/10661118/Why-do-...).

Oh and if somebody asks about "but what about chlorinated tap water" - that is less common in Germany. I cannot detect anything but "water" in the places I visit in various German states. Anyone concerned about such things can get a water filter, they are plentiful in supermarkets, mostly these types: https://i.pinimg.com/736x/31/ed/ff/31edff1af777601ac16d33292...

The website of my own municipal water company (of a large Bavarian city) says water is chlorinated only when it is absolutely necessary, and that if they do it they will also stop as soon as possible. So that is a temporary measure when something happened but not usually done.

We (in Germany) do have a nitrate problem in a lot of places. We even got reprimanded by the EU about that only recently. The reason is agriculture, of course. (https://www.euractiv.com/section/agriculture-food/news/eu-cl...)

> It is true though that for whatever reason that I just cannot comprehend the majority of water sold in bottles in this country (Germany) is carbonated.

When I was a kid, my parents would only buy carbonated water. Still water was available from the tap. Today, I stopped buying even that, I can carbonate my water myself.

As to why we buy so much bottled water: Marketing. Some waters have a distinct taste, but at least for me, it’s just a matter of getting used to a different tap water taste when moving.

How do you carbonate water yourself?

I use one of those https://www.amazon.de/ISI-Edelstahl-Schwarz-8-5-31-5/dp/B011..., but others exist, for example sodastream. I prefer mine because it doesn’t require some apparatus that take space on the kitchen counter.

There are all kinds of pressurized gas devices to use:

https://www.amazon.com/SodaStream-Sparkling-Water-Starter-Si...

In response to your first link: If you do want tap water in a restaurant, as long as you order another drink as well they'll be fine with it.

There may exist non-carbonated water in glass bottles, but non-carbonated water isn't that popular: In 2014, only 13% of water sold was 'still', but only 23% all water sold was sold in glass bottles [1]. Given that most still water comes in plastic bottles, I'd say the amount of still water sold in glass bottles is rather small.

[1] https://www.spiegel.de/wirtschaft/unternehmen/mineralwasser-...

Nope, there's both plain (table, mineral) and carbornated water available in glass.

we should start calling bottled water "plastic water"

Is microplastics what give cheap water bottles that particular off-flavor?

Maybe it depends on the brand. To me Aquafina tastes like I filled a bottle with toilet water & drank it.

I’d wild-ass guess that it’s using a cheaper water treatment? If you don’t want your water going green on the shelves, you need _some_ solution, and I’m guessing a dab of chlorine or similar both achieves that and makes the water taste weird.

Not necessarily. I doubt you could taste particles, unless they are truly molecule-sized nano to be able to bind to taste receptors? I think you need molecules. Which plastic bottles, depending on the exact kind of plastic and how it was manufactured, may have plenty of - it's not just the ideal "plastic" material, the carbon chains, but plenty of other kinds of molecules dissolved in between. In text books the different kinds of plastic are always represented with the main molecule - but not just is there no such thing as a 100% pure substance in a real-world manufacturing process, in addition all kinds of other molecules are added deliberately - temporarily during a manufacturing step or to become part of the final product - to modify the physical properties of the substance. So even the same kind of plastic can contain very different kinds of other substances depending on who made it when and where.

https://www.npr.org/2011/03/02/134196209/study-most-plastics...

https://www.thoughtco.com/reusing-plastic-bottles-serious-he...

> we should start calling bottled water "plastic water"

Might that be surprisingly effective as way to reduce bottled water use?

As a drop-in replacement for the phrase "bottled water", it meme-ishly supports interpersonal and self discouragement of use: "Here's your plastic water dear."; "Don't forget to buy my plastic water.".

The "plasticness" of bottles is highly salient when opening, handling, and trashing them, and is associated with the pollution. Imagine an ad with someone opening a bottle, with putting-down-the-cap noise, making that "crunching" bottle noise, drinking from and looking at a bottle, and recycling it, all while describing plastic "dust" and its health and ecosystem issues. So that bottle handling becomes a memory trigger for the issues and an associate visceral "yuck".

Nifty idea.

I already call it that way, but for different reasons.

My wife only drinks carbonated bottled water as she's a germaphobe and dislikes home-carbonators (I've tried everything...), but once she became pregnant I had to start dragging her bottles up to our apartment. I became very resentful of the fact that I had to either buy and drag glass or plastic bottles up to our flat only to bring them back to the store empty.

So I started calling it plastic water as a minor display of rebellion. She doesn't care though. :(

All that carbonic acid can't be great for her teeth.

Plastic bottled water is not bought because it is higher quality. People buy it because it comes in a disposable container.

In Bali, Indonesia (and many developing countries) you have no choice. Drinking tap water is also health hazard in some countries.

Depending on what the hazard is, disinfection tablets can be effective and much cheaper than buying water.

Or SODIS sunlight disinfection.

Haven’t tried those tabs for many years but I recall them tasting terrible. Good for emergencies perhaps.

Filtration systems are available but cost several thousand dollars and require core replacements every two years for around $300-400.

On the other hand, a gallon of potable water from one of the few springs in Bali costs around $3.

The NaDCC tablets leave no taste.

Water purification tabs, straws, and bottles are not practical unless you are in an extreme environment to find clean water (hikes, for example).

- They tested awful. Iodine tablets have an awful taste after. We often use orange flavored powder to hide it.

- They are expensive in third world countries. You have to use one tablet per liter, and it costs about 10 cents USD per tablet. In comparison, you can buy a 1L plastic bottle of water for 30 cents.

- it takes about half an hour to work, so you can't use them immediately.

- Even if you buy those straws, they have a maximum lifetime before you have to replace the filter (about 1000l). You will need to replace about twice a year if you were to use as the daily drive.

I couldn’t tell any taste with the NaDCC based chlorinating tablets. They’re not household bleach.

Iodine is old tech, and has other issues.

10cents < 30cents. And don’t underestimate the logistics of transporting bottled water.

In Bali, Thailand and many other places in SE Asia, you can get water that comes from local treatment plants (it usually looks like this[1]) instead of "brand" bottled water (like these ones[2]), the former is almost always bottled locally (at the nearest water treatment plant, they are ubiquitous in SE Asia even in regional areas, sometimes they are subsidised by governments), as a result the water tends to stay in the bottle for a much shorter time whereas "brand" water is not sourced locally and it travels long distances after being bottled. In addition the employees of the local water treatment plant will often come and take back empty bottles to use them again, so in those cases you have nearly 100% recycling and very little plastic waste.

I don't have any evidence that [1] contains less microplastics than [2] unfortunately, but I think it could be the case.

(I have lived in Indonesia for about one year and part of my family is from Thailand).

[1] http://www.nomad4ever.com/wp-content/uploads/2006/12/bottle_...

[2] https://www.bali.com/media/image/865/plastic-bottles-waste.j...

There’s also a system where Nestle gallon containers are filled by small merchants with local filtered bore water and recapped and sold (often as original).

In many places in SE Asia, Nestle "gallon containers" are sold at a premium compared to locally purified water (often 3X - 4X the price), but I would be curious to see side-by-side water analysis results...

The 18.9L/5 gallon water jugs are common even in Canada and US also, it's not unique to Asia. They do get washed and re-used also.

It's an interesting question if they'd be at risk for microplastics as well.

Surprised you didn’t mention the ubiquitous bring-your-own-container 1 baht water vending machines in Thailand too, which as I understand it are doing ad-hoc filtering:

https://m.alibaba.com/product/137674491/Water-Vending-Machin...

Yes you are right, those are another very good example of locally treated water, my Thai relatives live in a rural area where the “gallon bottles” are more commonplace so I forgot to mention those machines.

If you have money, you can buy a small water filtering unit for the house that gives you drinkable “tap water”. We had one in our fridge in the early 90s in Bangkok.

That's how I buy it, but I've encountered plenty of people who think it's of higher quality and prefer it.

I know lots of people who buy it because they believe it's higher quality. They don't care about the container.

That would be me and my family over the last decade.

We buy bottled water hoping it would benefit our health over tap water.

The tap water in the vast majority of the US is superior to bottled water.

There are exceptions, though, so if health is your concern, you might want to test both your tap and bottled water.

> The tap water in the vast majority of the US is superior to bottled water.

I'm surprised this myth gets repeated so often on HN. It's not true- the standards for purified bottled water are quite high[0].

[0]https://www.fda.gov/consumers/consumer-updates/bottled-water...

1. The link you provided suggests that some bottled water comes from Municipal sources, ie. it is tap water. This would logically imply that the standards for bottled water are <= the standards for tap water, at least in those locations.

2. The original article you are commenting on suggests that bottled water contains more microplastics than tap water.

Do you have your sign reversed on that inequality? If the water comes from municipal sources, and the standards are higher for bottled water than tap (clearly stated in the link), then the quality of bottled water can be, at worst, equal to tap water.

Unless impurities are introduced at the bottling plant, or with the plastic bottles.

Municipal water has to get to your house though. How clean it is at the plant doesn't really mean much if you're in an area with bad pipes (and in many places they are).

Counties still have to do testing on the water provided by the distribution network.

Hell, in my county this information is easily available online and in libraries and is broken down by measurements in the processing plant vs measurements in the distribution network. http://www.fultoncountyga.gov/images/stories/WR2/2017/CCR_20...

This won't directly tell you if your pipes are bad (and Atlanta does have some areas that used lead pipes from the county supply to the home) but it's a pretty good indicator of the water quality in my area.

If you're really concerned, it's almost always a better investment to get your tap water tested and fix the pipes than it is to buy bottled.

> This would logically imply that the standards for bottled water are <= the standards for tap water, at least in those locations.

That’s not how logic works. That there are instances of municipal water supplies whose quality is sufficient to meet bottled water standards doesn’t tell you anything about minimum standards for either municipal supplies or bottled water.

Further: I would expect quality of municipal supplies to vary widely. A city built on the side of a mountain with access to springs can just provide that water, and it’s still from “municipal” supply.

I hope in that case you buy it in refillable 5g water cooler jugs, rather than small disposable bottles.

Yep, 5 gallon water jugs.

Have you checked if there's anything wrong with your tap water? One-time water test is probably cheap compared to years of buying bottled.

I buy 2.5 gallon plastic jugs of water from the store. It tastes much better than the many "fill" services/stations around the city that exist because this cities water tastes absolutely terrible, and that's what they're filtering.

Same, Arrowhead Brand water tastes better than any other local or other water, & my wife wants that water only. I myself couldn't care less about brand.

I live in central NJ. I buy bottled water because we notification about the local "city water" having some issue or another. I'd use tap water if it was safe.

When in italy, I buy bottled water because i like natuRally sparkling water, rather than still. I would welcome going back to glass bottles.

This isn't true in my experience. I've witnessed plenty of people in wealthy US suburbs that stock bottled water at home and even stock up on vacation.

They claim it's for the taste and purity.

I don't know about purity but the taste can indeed be better than tap.

It can also be worse. I'd guess for almost everybody the difference in taste is dominated by the placebo effect.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xIJEw5aDzOo

I mean, maybe to you it's a placebo effect, but I know I can at least smell the chlorine in my tap water... which I suppose isn't strictly "taste" but basically the same for the point of the discussion.

A lot of bottled water comes from municipal water plants (aka tap water).

That Penn & Teller YouTube link even has a section showing this, though you only need to go to the supermarket and look closely at the fine print of all the different brands of bottle water. You'll quickly find a lot are tap water.

"Tap" doesn't always have a uniform flavor, even in the same city. It's perfectly possible that bottled tap might taste better than the tap water at your house.

I was just in the US and I couldn't drink the bottled water, basically, due to it tasting terrible. The San Francisco tap water was surprisingly good when filtered, and I did find a brand called "Iceland Spring" or something similar that was good. Evian also has a consistently good taste.

That’s weird, I find Evian awful in every country I go to :)

yes a lot use tap water but they almost all invariable will go through a RO system and ozination and/or uv with some minerals added back in at the end for taste. the RO water with minerals tastes better to me than a natural spring water without that treatment. (used to work in water purification for a spell)

Guess away.

It would be silly to draw global conclusions based on one “test” that was setup for maximum effect on television.

I’ve lived in places with tap water that is definitely noticeable vs filtered/treated water. San Jose water for example is extremely hard and I suspect few people would mistake it for bottled.

That video is just a lot more fun than a traditional study, but here you go:

https://www.wine-economics.org/aawe/wp-content/uploads/2018/...

I guess you haven't lived in Los Angeles?

“Better” taste is subjective.

Many people have become familiar with the flavor of plastic, and learned to associate it with “purity” or “freshness” or “quality” or whatever.

I think this is untrue; there’s plenty of difference in water taste from region to region in countries, without having to suggest it’s the taste of plastic that people react to.

In NYC I always drink bottled water, where I’ll happily drink potable tap water in most places.

Wait, what? NYC has some of the best tap water in the country (barring some old buildings with bad pipes).

My family is from Israel, we recently visited Athens. We have excellent tap water in Israel, and we only drink water at home. No soft drinks and very little juices.

The tap was in Athens was, for us, extremely good tasting. We found ourselves constantly drinking the water, it was actually a treat to drink. We found it far better than either our own tap water, or the bottled water (Ein Gedi) that we bring with us when camping.

Same experience, many people see tap water as being inferior and maybe even dirty, so they go with the bottled water.

> They claim it's for the taste and purity.

Then they aren't very bright.

For the majority of the population of South America, it is bought because the tap water is not potable. I imagine that is the case in other continents as well.

Africa, Asia too

Really? On a recent trip to Chile and Argentina I only drank tap water everywhere and had no issues.

Does the plastic come from the bottle, or from the water source?

If it came from the bottle, wouldn't it be in 100% of the samples?

Possibly. I guess it would also depend on the plastic used for the bottles themselves since the article says it was taken from different companies.

Does it matter if the non-water particles aren't plastic? It might, if we evolved while drinking water with the same non-water particles then they should be fine. If the non-water particles only turned up recently, like microplastics, then whether it will affect our health is unknown until some studies are done.

Common particles (those with which we evolved) are easily identifiable so no it's not them. But like I said it clearly shows it's not purer or higher quality than tap water and is sold like that with enormous price compared to tap water. It's called scam.

Actually, detecting hot-water particles does not automatically mean greater polution. Admittedly, I agree with the research authors and you that bottled water is less healthy and a scam, but it is still possible that the particles are non-harmful or could even be beneficial additives.

I very much doubt that's the case, I'm just saying we can't make such direct assumptions when analyzing scientific research.

> bottled water is sold as way purer than tap water

Do you have a source for that? Is it not just the prevalent belief among consumers?

In fairness, that could be what he’s talking about - the illusion among consumers that bottled watered is purer than tap. But with most brands marketing as coming from some mountain spring, who’s really at fault?

There's relatively short list of countries that can even drink tap water.

Flint

The problem I see is labeling something with an assumption whether it’s becausenitnmakes good news or due to bias. If it’s unknown I am not ok with calling it plastic. I would think that the more appropriate term would be “non-water based substance”. Ultimately what we are talking about is contaminants? Or could this be heavy mineral deposits in the water? Do they know? Is this natural or being classified as a real contaminant?

Short answer: yes, it's definitely mostly plastic.

https://orbmedia.org/sites/default/files/FinalBottledWaterRe...

> In total nearly 2000 microplastic particles > 100 um were extracted from all of the filters, with nearly 1000 (~50%) being further analyzed by FTIR. Obtained FTIR spectra were compared to libraries of known spectra in order to confirm and identify the polymeric content of the particles. All particles analyzed were either best matched to a polymer, plastic additive or known plastic binder providing additional supporting evidence that Nile Red selectively adsorbed to microplastic particles within the bottled water. With this spectroscopic confirmation, it can be concluded that on average each bottle of water contains at least 10.4 MPP/L (Table 2).

[...]

> Given the limitations of the lab, particles < 100 um (the so-called ‘NR tagged particles’) were not able to be confirmed as polymeric through spectroscopic analyses (FTIR &/or Raman spectroscopy). However, in testing of various stains and dyes that could be employed for microplastic detection and analysis within environmental samples with a greater potential for misidentification and false positives (i.e., sediments and open-water environmental samples) both Maes et al. (2107) and Erni-Cassola et al. (2017) concluded that Nile Red (NR) was very selective, especially within the time scales of incubation employed, and could be used for the rapid detection of microplastics without the need for additional spectroscopic analysis. To be sure that is why this stain was employed for this study. Additionally FTIR analysis was done on fluorescing particles >100 um and every particle analyzed was confirmed to be polymeric. Even further, NR is well-established to selectively adsorb to hydrophobic (‘water-fearing’) materials and, as such, will not adsorb to the only contents reasonably expected to be within bottled water, water &/or its mineral components.

It’s only “unknown” from a scientific skepticism perspective. The scientist is saying, “all the evidence that we can gather points with ubiquity towards this being plastic, but there is some possibility that there is an as yet undiscovered particle that is otherwise elusive to detection.” That just being a good scientist. The mark of a scientist that you should not trust is the one who says, “we know this to be true with absolute certainty” instead of “all of the evidence I’ve gathered leads me to personally believe with absolutely certainty, but there could be something else going on I haven’t considered.”

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