It leaves a bad taste in my mouth how quickly people will let one bad cluster of comments negate a man's entire life work. I have already outlined my opinions on this matter elsewhere but I still hope this incident doesn't ruin RMS.
It is never appropriate for these sorts of controversies to play out over 1 week. If there are years of evidence of problems, there should be a few weeks of tying them all together before people resign. The knee-jerk reaction here over a mailing list comment is genuinely concerning.
And people keep quoting him while rearranging the words. We literally have a transcript here, people should be copying from it directly. No quoting of single words in a new sentence, that is just slack. :/
In other words, what makes you think this process played out over 1 week, rather than this being the most recent of a long succession of events?
I am personally saddened by RMS’ departure, and also saddened that this “final straw” seems likely to be caused by Richard attempting to defend the memory of a long-time, now deceased friend. That said, I also know people who interact with him far more often than I, and they almost unanimously say it was past time. It makes me sad, but it doesn’t make me think it was hasty.
There hasn't been enough time to work out what the actual community thinks about the current drama because it takes a month or two for word to percolate around a community; stable opinions over large groups don't form in a week. Even if it is a straw that broke the camels back there needs to be a few weeks of settling to work out if there is straw and where it landed.
People like to think they can make snap decisions about what is good and what is bad. It just happens that that instinct is wrong and what fuels mob violence and other destructive actions; there are strong links between good decisions, long timeframes and moderate attitudes. This isn't so urgent that it couldn't wait a month to let everyone breath and take stock. Then Stallman can resign if enough people still think it is appropriate.
We know very well how they form: years of false propaganda.
People still believes he's scared of plants.
Thomas Lord, Arch creator and former FSF employee
> p.s.: In the closet-sized "office" Bushnell, McGrath, and I shared for a time we did have some spider plants as part of a running silly joke. They did not actually scare RMS away OF COURSE and he usually had helpful criticism and advice of our efforts, from my point of view.
This recent event seems to have been what finally pushed this to the mainstream, but I can assure you people have been complaining to get rid of him for over a decade.
Unless I’ve misinterpreted the situation, it seems like he was forced to resign due to the former rather than the latter. And if the official reason is unrelated to the actual reason, that’s a rather poor case of governance.
If someone has been disliked due to poor interpersonal skills for years, it’s very weak when a politically-sensitive pretext is required to actually get rid of them. Better to take the fight head-on, and accept the outcome.
I was not bothered about this controversial public statements, but several women who I trust had very bad experiences with him in person. I'm not going to name any of these people because they (very reasonably) don't want to be in the public eye.
These two issues together caused significant issues, and I felt I could no longer support a project he ran.
I'm not sure what you mean by you should "take the fight head-on". It's easy to find many people, for years and years, who have said Stallman was actively harmful to the FSF and GNU, but they were generally ignored.
I didn't want to support software which was headed by Stallman.
Why it always resolve to a comply or die situation?
How many times people told you what to do, you didn't and in the end you were right?
> by Richard attempting to defend the memory of a long-time, now deceased friend
He wasn't even defending him, he was just saying "don't use a word that does not represent what really happened according to the sources".
People should be outraged that a nobody working on automated vehicles for the US military (AKA drones) believes she on a higher moral ground than Stallman, that never hurt anybody.
People should be outraged that said nobody wrote "Remove Stallman and all the other toxic people in tech" like if "removing" people is ok, like she knows who they are, 'cause she's the ultimate judge, and as if building weapons is not toxic...
BTW
RMS has been much more brave and clear than that.
He wrote
"if someone in csail says in this discussion group that Minsky was accused of sexual assault, a very serious accusation, and someone else in csail thinks that he was not, should the latter person refrain from saying so in this same discussion group out of concern that the conversation will leak and be misconstrued by the press?"
The in stands for "science". The job of scientists is to evaluate evidence and seek truth. We have a social responsibility to do that as well. I hope that we scientists will never evade our social responsibility to seek and defend the truth out of fear that the press will misconstrue our search. That would not be a reputation I would like attached to my affiliation.
I think the existence of a dispute about that supports my point that the term "sexual assault" is slippery, so we ought to use more concrete terms when accusing anyone.
He was doing it to protect the movement and the protest from
a - leaks to the press
b - bad PR, if they used sexual assault people could spin it as "but he didn't assault her, it was consensual sex" like they usually do: they shoot the messenger or the form of the message to not address the real issue and divert the attention (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moving_the_goalposts)
c - he was UNDOUBTEDLY right! nobody is talking about the protest against Epstein-MIT involvement.
good job Selam, good job everybody
Somehow I missed this, so a person literally working on helping the government kill people was the one asking to remove RMS? Interestingly enough, such hypocrisy came up in all the deplatforming cases too, where they removed some relatively innocent stuff claiming it had bad impact on people, but ignored and keep ignoring all the weapons promoting content, war propaganda, etc. that literally causes death and destruction.
Yep
Regardless of whether these allegations are true or false, there is a lesson to be learned here. The lesson here is that [some] men have a severe weakness related to their sexuality. I'd assume US HUMINT knows about this lesson, very well.
There's a huge difference though.
Assange after he was accused of rape escaped from the process and started rambling about a “radical feminist conspiracy”
Stallman is not accused of anything, never escaped and if you write to him (he still answer to everybody) will ask you to support the FSF because it's important
And this is the man women and students should be afraid of...
Rape implies... rape. He is just accused of removing a condom.
> escaped from the process
Wasn't that due to the (rightful imo) fear of being sent to the US?
1) That's rape and 2) he's accused of more than that.
Here's the case: https://www.bailii.org/ew/cases/EWHC/Admin/2011/2849.html
This sounds pretty rapey to me.
> As regards offence 1, AA said in her statement that she had offered the use of her apartment to Mr Assange from 11-14 August 2010 when she was away. She had returned on 13 August 2010 earlier than planned and then met him for the first time. They went out to dinner and returned to her apartment. As they drank tea, he started to fondle her leg which she welcomed. Everything happened fast. Mr Assange ripped off her clothes and at the same time broke her necklace. She tried to put her clothes on again, but Mr Assange had immediately removed them again. She had thought that she did not really want to continue, but it was too late to tell Mr Assange to stop as she had consented so far. Accordingly she let Mr Assange take off all her clothes. Thereafter they laid down on the bed naked with AA on her back and Mr Assange on top. Mr Assange wanted to insert his penis into her vagina, but she did not want him to do that as he was not using a condom. She therefore squeezed her legs together in order to avoid him penetrating her. She tried to reach several times for a condom which Mr Assange had stopped her from doing by holding her arms and bending her legs open and trying to penetrate her with his penis without a condom. Mr Assange must have known it was a condom AA was reaching for and he had held her arms to stop her. After a while Mr Assange had asked AA what she was doing and why she was squeezing her legs together; AA told him she wanted him to put on a condom before he entered her. Mr Assange let go of AA's arms and put on a condom which AA found for him. AA felt a strong sense of unexpressed resistance on Mr Assange' s part against using a condom.
Legally in Sweden? Sure, but in everyday speech rape implies a lot of things which did not happen in the Assange case. I would say that Stallman's argument about sexual assault would apply perfectly here.
Was Stallman right (again!) when he wrote
"I think it is morally absurd to define 'rape' in a way that depends on minor details such as which country it was in or whether the victim was 18 years old or 17,"
Of course he was!
According to Swedish law, that's rape.
Welcome to the rest of the world, where the US laws do not apply.
> Wasn't that due to the (rightful imo) fear of being sent to the US?
Still escaped and blamed "feminists"
Would Epstein be right to escape because US wanted to prosecute him on the account of trafficking young girls?
I think I’d argue that yes, from his perspective, in hindsight, that would probably have been a good idea.
DJB too, see https://blog.cr.yp.to/20160607-dueprocess.html and https://eindhoven.cr.yp.to/false-statements-by-henry-de-vale...
You're arguing that defending a statutory rapist isn't supporting pedophilia BUT working on the guidance systems for an autonomous ground vehicle is "help the government kill people"?
Wrong.
I'm saying that Stallman never defended a statutory rapist.
He tried to defend the protest from the backlash of using the wrong terms and a dead person from an accusation that is hard to prove anyway now that he's dead.
Statutory rape is just a safer option given the circumstances.
BTW defending a statutory rapist is not supporting pedophilia or any attorney who defended an alleged (there is no official accusation yet) statutory rapist was also supporting pedophilia?
> for an autonomous ground vehicle is "help the government kill people"?
That's what drones are for...
And I've never said that either.
I've only said that she works there.
The fact Stallman doesn't understand what assault means, and then used his lack of understanding of the word assault to defend Minsky, is exactly why people are annoyed with him.
Assault does not require force or violence.
he knows very well.
He meant, and it's obvious from the emails, that the term is slippery if used to accuse someone.
It would have been better something like "statutory rape"
because it's not disputable.
B. One could quite reasonably object to the use of a term whose legal definition is very different from the everyday meaning or connotations.
> The injustice is in the word “assaulting”. The term “sexual assault” is so vague and slippery that it facilitates accusation inflation: taking claims that someone did X and leading people to think of it as Y, which is much worse than X.
> The accusation quoted is a clear example of inflation. The reference reports the claim that Minsky had sex with one of Epstein’s harem. (See https://www.theverge.com/2019/8/9/20798900/marvin-minsky-jef... records-unsealed.) Let’s presume that was true (I see no reason to disbelieve it).
> The word “assaulting” presumes that he applied force or violence, in some unspecified way, but the article itself says no such thing. Only that they had sex.
Read this last paragraph.
Now read an English definition of assault. English words have several meanings. Stallman is ignoring the every day English meaning of the word assault because he doesn't understand how English works.
> Assault:
> 1) violent physical or verbal attack
> 2) any act that causes someone to feel physically threatened, which is considered reckless or intentional, and which need not necessarily involve any physical violence
> 3) rape or attempted rape
I don't understand why you'd say this...
> One could quite reasonably object to the use of a term whose legal definition is very different from the everyday meaning or connotations.
The legal definition isn't different to the everyday meaning, but even if it is Stallman needs to understand which definition is being used before he launches into his rape-apology, and he made no effort to do that, did he?
To the minds of the majority of people sure it does.
The only thing that's past time is that more people start to realize the real bullies and harassers are the ones who post medium posts saying "Remove $person"... in which they misrepresent or outright lie, which others in the press then launder, and then act like this is the height of speaking truth to power. The same way that Coraline Ada has hundreds of tweets of yelling, berating and denigrating people, even though "she's the woman bringing civility to open source" (wired) and wants to enforce a code of conduct.
It's all a joke, except it has actually weakened the community, and given power and influence to people who mainly seem to care about themselves, no matter which bodies they have to step over.
Diversity is a farce and geeks are useful idiots who believed it was ever about anything but narcissism. What is happening now is justification after the fact. If the accusers were expected to live up to the same standards of conduct they demand from others, these people wouldn't be taken seriously.
• What Stallman did is wrong, it was the wrong place, the wrong time and regardless of him feeling that way he speaks from a place of authority (more details at https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20992124)
• This one incident should not be sufficient for firing a "visiting scientist" and the head of an organization he himself founded.
• In the case of a repeat problematic behaviour it should be addressed as such. Both MIT and the FSF should have expressed their concerns years ago, followed by discussions and explanations of what constitute an acceptable behaviour and clear steps, ending in a dismissal, that would have been taken if his behaviour were not corrected.
Not addressing a problematic behaviour for years or decades is wrong. A quick firing for one incident, because of past issues that have never been addresses, is wrong. Putting pressure on someone to resign rather than dismiss them is a cop out for either lack of courage or lack of arguments, or both and is wrong. Caving under mob/fashion pressure is another cop out and is wrong.
I haven’t read of any evidence, just what sounds like rumor starting and spreading
https://www.thedailybeast.com/famed-mit-computer-scientist-r...
Including gems such as
"I think that everyone age 14 or above ought to take part in sex, though not indiscriminately. (Some people are ready earlier.)”
And
“I am skeptical of the claim that voluntarily pedophilia harms children. The arguments that it causes harm seem to be based on cases which aren't voluntary, which are then stretched by parents who are horrified by the idea that their little baby is maturing.”
Plus
“There is little evidence to justify the widespread assumption that willing participation in pedophilia hurts children.”
He has all of the sudden backtracked on his decades long-held opinion that sex between adults and children is ok less than two weeks ago:
https://stallman.org/archives/2019-jul-oct.html#14_September...
Personally I find the age when the brain is fully developed to carry a bit more significance, ie around age 25. Before that the brain is still being assembled and yet we expect people to make life or death decisions while driving, serving the military, have correct impulse control and follow the law just as everyone else.
What would a "spectrum of consent" even look like? 'First base' at one age, second at another, etc.?
RMS: "I think that everyone age 14 or above ought to take part in sex, though not indiscriminately. (Some people are ready earlier.)”
Just because it's the letter of the law doesn't mean we are forbidden from discussing changing it.
> “There is little evidence to justify the widespread assumption that willing participation in pedophilia hurts children.”
This is quoted out of content, here is the full quote: "There is little evidence to justify the widespread assumption that willing participation in pedophilia hurts children. [with a link to https://www.theguardian.com/society/2013/jan/03/paedophilia-...]
Granted, children may not dare say no to an older relative, or may not realize they could say no; in that case, even if they do not overtly object, the relationship may still feel imposed to them. That's not willing participation, it's imposed participation, a different issue."
He did not take the "There is little evidence to justify the widespread assumption that willing participation in pedophilia hurts children" statement out of his butt, it was the conclusion that he formed after reading this article.
But even then, I do not see how his opinions regarding paedophilia are relevant to the topic at hand.
Also, I can't speak for everyone, but I don't particulalry disagree with or think any of the things you list in your comment are fireable.
Not fireable, for the public role of leader of an organization? They're held to higher standards of conduct, whether we like it or not;
holding forth in public on opinions that 1) run counter to mainstream society in a way that's going to piss off a lot of people and 2) have nothing to do with the organization are a distraction, and a sign that leader's losing the thread on what their organization goals are and how to accomplish that.
In short, you can lead a software advocacy organization, or you can publish your opinions on aborting fetuses with down syndrome and your skepticism about pedophilia harming children, but you can't do both for long. (Unless you're stallman, then you can do it for decades before someone says, "hey, this guy's making the free software movement look bad".)
Just because they build up doesn't mean they're not legitimate grievances, and I don't see rms changing one bit.
Responses always seem out of proportion because media coverage creates attention and makes people reconsider longstanding issues. That might seem like a manufactured mob, but it isn't, it's just focusing all of the discontent that piled up over the years.
We need better feedback loops, sure. But we also need people that listen, and RMS would fail there already.
The one incident that got attention now stems from rms having absolutely no filter and no sense of what's appropriate to say at what time and additionally seemingly prioritising his dead friends honor over believing victims even if you want to argue him being just about technically correct by using specific wording (there is no fucking way you are oblivious to people being coerced into sex this visiting Epsteins Island, just none).
This is not a one off thing. When RMS does his church of emacs skit and keeps pointing at a young woman in the audience whenever he says the word virgin, when RMS asks someone their name, if they work at MIT and then if they'd like to date right away, when people literally cover their offices in plants because Stallman doesn't like them... this guy should have been told to be better or get the fuck out years ago, but instead because he's adored by nerds all over people put up with his childish insistence on doing things exactly his way, using his personal redefinition of words (fuck rms for shitting on singular they) and leaving his behavior unchallenged because you know he'll throw a huge tantrum if you don't.
Total speculation, but it makes me wonder if stallman is the geek's version of Steinbeck's "temporarily embarrassed millionaire"; that people want to see themselves not as members of a society, but just undiscovered genius misanthropes whose greatness hasn't yet been recognized.
¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Because getting with the times and adapting to a changing world require proprietary software and the dilution of privacy?
> genius misanthropes
Yes, rms the misanthrope...
Maybe stick to "kewl stealth mode startups", or at least try to make it less obvious you're just looking for excuses to dislike the man. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
That seems a particular American hangup.
If people would visit the mansion of a skin-magazine tycoon on invitation, and one of the many women around there would approach them, very few would assume this was a genuine romantic interest, but there would be little reason to doubt if they were being set up for blackmail instead of straight-up prostitution.
Whether you are revolted by prostitution, or whether you would find it inappropriate for an older man to sleep with a significantly younger woman doesn't matter.
> (fuck rms for shitting on singular they) [..] you know he'll throw a huge tantrum if you don't.
Terrible thing that, people throwing tantrums when others don't see things their way.
2. I see no equivalence here. RMS will go out of his way to misgender people. He might not think that's a big deal, but that's no excuse. Watch any interview with the guy, even if he's talking to someone who does not subscribe to calling it "GNU/Linux" he will insist, every time, for it to be corrected. That's not just being insistent, that's actually - dare i say it - orwellian.
He also likes to draw the JBP "oh god no i have been misinterpreted" line. Like, when I say "Hacker news users are techbros." and someone asks me "why do you think all hacker news users are techbros", I can turn around and say I never said ALL I meant a very specific subset why are you misinterpreting my words you horrible horrible person aren't you supposed to be better this horrible tribalism. He does it in his per article twice (using the phrase "without inquiring if that's what I believe")
A pedant won't cleave to his own private definitions when they suit him ("You said drm, which I call digital restrictions management"), common language definitions when they suit him ("when someone says sexual assault, we hear assault and think violence"), and technical jargon when they suit him ("it's GNU/linux"). There's no seeking of understanding there, just someone being pushy with definitions however it suits them.
Most people are irrational.
> Watch any interview with the guy
Interviews he's been invited to, where calling the operating system GNU has been stipulated beforehand.
rms is involved in GNU and has no involvement in "Linux". Not in the development of the kernel, nor in the philosophy behind the various "Linux" operating systems. What would you expect him to say about "Linux"?
Responses are out of proportion because the media hugely distorts and misleads on every single topic in service of the goal of getting more shares. They'll always try and give a view that is as interesting/outrageous/satisfying as possible, using phrasing and selective ommissions.
Then people hear those stories and relay the insinuations rather than the actual reported facts (news media is generally very good at conveying X while only literally stating Y, Vice was unusually crude and shoddy this time).
The post I am replying to is an excellent example of the end result of this game of telephone.
> believing victims
He didn't disbelieved them in the quote.
> there is no fucking way you are oblivious to people being coerced into sex this visiting Epsteins Island, just none
On what basis are you saying this?
> When RMS does his church of emacs skit and keeps pointing at a young woman in the audience whenever he says the word virgin
This is the kind of thing where it's very easy for stories and memories to get distorted.
> when people literally cover their offices in plants because Stallman doesn't like them
Yet another one of the hugely exaggerated rumours...
I contend that someone who thinks that an adult should not be allowed to enter into contracts regarding software / be punished for doing so "If programmers deserve to be rewarded for creating innovative programs, by the same token they deserve to be punished if they restrict the use of these programs." yet thinks that a 10/11 year old should be allowed to pick their sex partners is something that should be openly discussed.
Isn't that what he said in the first place?
That doesn't sound like what happened at all.
More like he dared to challenge a witchhunt against someone with a tenuous connection to Epstein, and the witchhunt turned on him.
If he wasn't fired/forced to resign because of his comments about Minsky, why did it happen just after those comments?
His comments about Minksy aren't enough to warrant the backlash. But his LONG history of poor behaviour absolutely is. He brought the spotlight ON HIMSELF by commenting on such a high profile case. That spotlight then listed all his flaws. Those flaws got him where he is today.
That said, I agree it's clear he made a lot of enemies with his past behavior and that certainly didn't help him at a time like this when he needs allies willing to stand against the mob and speak on his behalf.
Notice that, fortunately, he seems to be in good spirits and has not lost his sense of humor. Look at the top line on his website (stallman.org). He says "I may not be a good leader, but at least I'm a great speaker[1]. "
With the link pointing to a video of a comically bad speech of him (which is funny, because he is almost always a very good speaker indeed).
That part of the HTML doesn't seem to be written with auto-fill-mode either.
if that is the case, whomever managed to hack the "supreme hacker" deserves some sort of prize, doesn't it?
He also wrote the GPL which is a wicked legal hack.
Maybe he's no Knuth, Ritchie or Bellard, but a hacker he is. Certainly among the top 5 alive today.
Last talk I saw of Stallman, to a very technical audience, he was asked this same question. If I recall correctly he said that he was working to steer the programming resources towards the most important parts for user freedom (e.g., free operating system for phones), but he did not contributed code directly, leaving this task to more talented younger people. He enjoyed programming a lot, and his coding mojo was mostly spent on emacs macros to automate his daily tasks. (this is just a recollection from a talk heard a few years ago, it may not be exact, but that was the spirit).
Full disclosure, I'm the developer of an android player for peertube. https://github.com/sschueller/peertube-android
He's being treated the way he is because his actions and comments are insensitive at best and downright vulgar at worst, have been so for a long time, and people have finally had enough.
If you can't tell the difference, I don't know what to tell you.
Do you really think that insensitivity and vulgarity is worse than mob justice?
Edit to add: Some people have said that Stallman is nuroatypical. If that is the case then it could be very well that his actions and comments are from a trait beyond his control.
The fact is, the reporting around the event that actually did get him fired was beyond awful and disingenuous. By throwing up your hands and saying "yeah maybe those articles were a crock of lies, but that's fine because he actually did do some shitty stuff before too" you're contributing to an environment in which it's that much harder to distinguish honest reporting from fabricated character assassination.
I think this [0] comment from Reddit does a good job refuting the "straw that broke the camel's back" argument:
"""
Amazing how much damage dishonest media coverage can do, even though it's both trivial to prove their misquotes false and we now have an witness further supporting Stallman's original argument. Summary of events:
In a recently unsealed deposition a woman testified that, at the age of 17, Epstein told her to have sex with Marvin Minsky. Minsky was a co-founder of the MIT Media Lab and pioneer in A.I. who died in 2016. Stallman argued on a mailing list (in response to a statement from a protest organizer accusing Minsky of sexual assault) that, while he condemned Epstein, Minsky likely did not know she was being coerced:
> We can imagine many scenarios, but the most plausible scenario is that she presented herself to him as entirely willing. Assuming she was being coerced by Epstein, he would have had every reason to tell her to conceal that from most of his associates.
Someone wrote a Medium blogpost called "Remove Richard Stallman" quoting the argument. Media outlets like Vice and The Daily Beast then lied and misquoted Stallman as saying that the woman was "entirely willing" (rather than pretending to be) and as "defending Epstein". Note the deposition doesn't say she had sex with Minsky, only that Epstein told her to do so. Since then physicist Greg Benford, who was present at the time, has stated that she propositioned Minsky and he turned her down:
> I know; I was there. Minsky turned her down. Told me about it. She saw us talking and didn’t approach me.
This seems like a complete validation of the distinction Stallman was making. If what Minsky knew doesn't matter, if there's no difference between "Minsky sexually assaulted a woman" and "Epstein told a 17-year-old to have sex with Minsky without his knowledge or consent", then why did he turn her down? We're supposed to consider a dead man a rapist for sex he didn't have because of something Epstein did without his knowledge, possibly even in a failed attempt to create blackmail material against him?
Despite this, Stallman has now been pressured to resign not just from MIT but from the Free Software Foundation that he founded. Despite (and sometimes because of) his eccentricities, I think Stallman was a very valuable voice in free-software, particularly as someone whose dedication to it as an ideal helped counterbalance corporate influence and the like. But if some journalists decide he should be out and are willing to tell lies about it, then apparently that's enough for him to be pushed out.
"""
https://www.reddit.com/r/technology/comments/d59efr/computer...
Yes, it doesn't make a lot of sense that his previous unacceptable behavior has been tolerated. Pressure on him, should have been so much earlier.
This type of rumor mongering is hurtful and should be opposed.
Exactly, he's innocent until proven guilty, like everybody else.
You're implying that "I heard from someone that heard it from someone else, that heard it from their dad, that read it on a mailing list, 20 years ago, that he did, therefore ho did"
seems does not qualify as evidence
> circles that interacted with RMS
Like Thomas Lord?
I think there is only mud, not based on any real issue with what Stallman said or did.
> does not automatically follow that it was the wrong thing to do.
It does.
FSF main goal was freedom and protecting fundamental liberties of each individual
Stallman main contribution to FSF was the GPL, a legal framework, FSF main contribution was pro bono legal support defending free software in court.
So, yeah, if FSF cannot defend its founder, most popular and most honorable member, it becomes basically useless, it follows it was the wrong thing to do.
Their reputation was based on trust, trust has been broken.
You don't have to trust the media. RMS himself confirms that he was wrong in the past, at least regarding child abuse.
People are literally celebrating a "long overdue" injustice because they don't like the man, so "he had it coming". I don't know how can anyone not find this unsetting.
I never said otherwise. If you look at my comment history you will see that I am against the injustice against RMS.
I certainly agree with you.
"I hosted rms many years ago in the 90’s, what was supposed to be hosting your hero for a ~3 day thing became a ~2 month nightmare."
Did Miguel ask him to leave? Or did he just sit around passive-aggressively for 3 whole months? Also, rms called Miguel "a traitor to the Free Software community" at some point, and now with the whole MIT business, he gets in with the twitter defamation league spouting off his grievances. That's pretty much beyond cowardly and into despicable territory.
Jillian's story is pretty much the entire problem in a nutshell:
"an older female colleague recommended at a whisper that I lock myself in my office."
"She later told me it was because he gets touchy"
"Over the years, I heard all sorts of things of this nature, and warned women who might not be in the know"
Maybe this older female colleague was told the same things at some point? Why is every single allegation hearsay from twitter?
"instructing them on how to properly make tea"
Yes, rms can be very particular about minor things. If you did not know even this, why are you writing about "things about rms others should know"?
Also, again EFF connections. Do they even want to pretend to be useful anymore, outside of cluelessly abusing people on twitter for kicks?
Two, https://medium.com/@thomas.bushnell/a-reflection-on-the-depa...
> Minsky is also dead, and there’s plenty of time to discuss at leisure whatever questions there may be about his culpability.
"Bushnell [..] is employed by Google LLC. He is a member of Saint Mark's Episcopal Church."
With all due respect to his employment and religious beliefs, that is not the sort of person to provide a better understanding of Stallman, in general or psychologically.
No? FTA:
> But I’ll give you a personal take. By my reckoning, I worked for RMS longer than any other programmer.
You can see it if you assume that some (even most) of the people judging weren't part of the community at the time and might just have learned of it.
For fucks sake, this is not even an accusation to Minsky.
Take a minute to appreciate the fact that Minsky is being called a Rapist because somebody said that some person told another person to have sex with him. And he turned her down.
So I believe the problem comes down to these two very different situations sharing the same name. Maybe they don't carry the same punishment, I'm not sure, but I definitely don't agree with calling both of these situations the same name, especially when that name includes the word rape. There's a gravity there that I believe the situation with the 20 and 17 year old doesn't carry, but the situation with the 20 and 13 year old does.
Or, there is this quote:
“All I know she said about Minsky is that Epstein directed her to have sex with Minsky. That does not say whether Minsky knew that she was being coerced. it does not report what each said and did during their sexual encounter. We can imagine various scenarios.”
Or this one:
“it is morally absurd to define ‘rape’ in a way that depends on minor details such as which country it was in or whether the victim was 18 years old or 17”
With all due respect to your argument, this is not a case of a 20 year old and a 17 year old. This is a case of a 73 year old esteemed researcher at an institution with undergraduate students having sex with a 17 year old in a country that defines such an age difference as statutory rape.
Stallman’s idea about how it’s absurd to define rape according to age or country is offensive in every way imaginable. Sovereign nations are allowed to set and enforce their own laws. Other sovereign nations are allowed to choose whether to extradite their citizens back to those nations to face their justice system. But the act of entering a country is an agreement that you will respect its sovereignty and its laws. If you argue against that, you’re effectively arguing against the entire basis of international law and international relations. That would be an interesting argument, but let’s talk about mineral rights instead of child sexual abuse.
As for age, countries around the world recognize that children cannot be expected to provide informed consent to engage in sexual activity. They argue that by statute, some children are not capable of consenting to sexual activity. These countries have tried to come up with policy to deal with how absolute differences in age don’t necessarily account for differences in maturity. Some countries will not enforce statutory rape laws if the age difference is slight. Other countries enforce their own laws differently to account for different situations. This is a case of a 56 year age difference involving a pedophile, an eminent researcher and a victim of child trafficking.
All of that aside, the fact is that a victim chose to come forward and make herself available to be deposed. During this deposition, the victim said that she was coerced into having sex with Minsky.
Minsky is dead. Why not believe the victim? What do we gain from pedantic arguments about the nature of international law and sexual abuse?
* Edited because my first version was poorly written and almost incomprehensible.
Here's a list of the age of consent by nation worldwide: http://worldpopulationreview.com/countries/age-of-consent-by...
So tell us, which value is the "real" age of consent and what the moral reasoning is that makes it and no other value the correct one?
Or here is another one. A 73 year old had sex with someone 56 years younger than him. This 73 year old is an educator at one of the top Universities in the world yet he still chose to engage without absolutely ensuring that she consented. The moral path is to look around, realize there is something seriously wrong with Epstein and his harem (Stallman’s word) and stay the hell away.
Instead, he said Minsky "probably" slept with the woman and then argued that this should not be considered sexual assault, even though at the very least it would have been statutory rape.
It's a bad look no matter how you spin it, and seems to indicate a kind of misogyny and treatment of women as sex objects. It seems to place him firmly in the toxic patriarchy which is no longer considered acceptable.
I saw a comment along the lines that Stallman is still living in the 1970s in that respect. That's a problem for a public figurehead today, unless of course they're a right-wing conservative.
> The reference reports the claim that Minsky had sex with one of Epstein’s harem. ... Let’s presume that was true (I see no reason to disbelieve it).
never, in the hundreds of pages of depositions.
Instead of talking about MIT that took money from Epstein, we're talking about Stallman that never did.
The straw that broke the camel's back could be the wrong metaphor. Maybe it's more like the dam burst.
[1] https://stallman.org/archives/2012-nov-feb.html#04_January_2...
Also note that it is a difference between an empirical claim and a moral claim. While empirical claim that some action almost always leads to negative outcome to others could be used as an argument for that action being immoral, it is still perfectly valid to attack the supporting empirical claim, while not attacking the moral claim.
There are Stallman's statements defending non-coercive sex with children, but they are older:
https://stallman.org/archives/2003-may-aug.html#28%20June%20...
At least there is this one from 14th September, also on his site:
https://stallman.org/archives/2019-jul-oct.html#14_September...
" Many years ago I posted that I could not see anything wrong about sex between an adult and a child, if the child accepted it.
Through personal conversations in recent years, I've learned to understand how sex with a child can harm per psychologically. This changed my mind about the matter: I think adults should not do that. I am grateful for the conversations that enabled me to understand why."
Citation needed. He expressed the same opinion in 2013 that he did in 2006 and 2003:
https://stallman.org/archives/2012-nov-feb.html#04_January_2...
https://stallman.org/archives/2006-may-aug.html#05%20June%20...
https://stallman.org/archives/2003-may-aug.html#28%20June%20...
The stuff I did find was only tangentially related and not indicative of any changes in position, eg
https://stallman.org/archives/2016-jul-oct.html#16_September...
https://stallman.org/archives/2016-jul-oct.html#12_September...
https://stallman.org/archives/2016-jul-oct.html#15_July_2016...
But even if he hadn't changed his opinion there would be nothing wrong with that imo.
> It is more important that innocence be protected than it is that guilt be punished, for guilt and crimes are so frequent in this world that they cannot all be punished. But if innocence itself is brought to the bar and condemned, perhaps to die, then the citizen will say, 'whether I do good or whether I do evil is immaterial, for innocence itself is no protection,' and if such an idea as that were to take hold in the mind of the citizen that would be the end of security whatsoever.
(1) Which is yet to be proven, btw. We shouldn't take destroying a man's reputation so lightly. But well, what do I know. The mob must enjoy its victories, even when they're really defeats.
The motte is relatively easy to defend... Richard isn't the most charming guy and comes off as a creep, so he shouldn't be a leader. But it's not the most persuasive argument.
The bailey is hard to defend... the various misinterpretations of Richard's email. Despite these interpretations being wrong, they're emotionally persuasive. If someone uses logic against them, the antagonist can always retreat to the motte.
Is it fair? (And consider that I'm looking solely at the motte part; disregarding entirely this most recent event): Well, for most definitions of fair, it is not. Nevertheless, I don't think MIT, GNU, FSF, or any other entity should suffer significant damage just to chase the ideal of someone with RMS's peculiar ways gets to do the job of being an advocate of their organization.
It boils down to this: Is it acceptable to fire someone from a job based on something they are not really responsible for?
I think if the job description itself, prior to you taking it, makes clear that: Yes, you will be fired then – that it is fine.
The vast majority of clearly public facing jobs work like this. If you're the CEO and you do something rather upsetting, but not illegal, in a private setting that leaks out and which has absolutely no bearing whatsoever on the company or on your ability to perform your job there... you still get fired: The board weighs the value of your presence in your C-level role vs. the next best candidate vs. the damage done to 'the brand' by leaving you there, and a swift decision is made.
It's hard to draw lines in the sand on this. Both the public-ness of your role as well as the severity of how upset the public is about the unrelated thing need to be taken into account.
Imagine some sales rep at a company has a sextape leaked from years ago. Is it fair to fire them? Probably not.
Imagine that same sales rep has a penis tattoo'd on their forehead. Is it fair to fire them? Probably yeah, and the reason is not really: "They will do a bad job at sales itself". The reason is: "Most of your job is selling the product, put a small part of it is simply reflecting on the company. And with that tattoo you're doing such an incredibly bad job at that last part, we dont even want to know how well you will be doing at the first: You're out".
My point is, for RMS? I estimate that he is on the 'his firing his justified' side of the line for virtually anybody's sense of fairness.
The job the description would pertain to didn't exist before he created it by filling it.
I don't think any of the more palatable audience-friendly "FOSS" luminaries are going to decline being flown business-class, and then ask for the price difference to be donated.
Open source opinion maker is a solid career path now, and will attract the sort of people interested in making careers.
rms has shown through example to be incorruptable. That's the only requirement, but it's hard to find. All the rest is nice-to-have.
In human nature it's extremely common to tolerate things too long and then bail out when something minuscule happens later.
Not ideal but easy to understand.
I don't see "human nature" as an acceptable excuse for anything at all.
It may be a straw, but it's a very heavy straw, placed at just the right location
He was! He was fired for all that, and for this most recent incident as well. He wasn't fired for a single incident alone, but for a series of incidents, of which this was the most recent.
> If Stallman's past behavior was unacceptable, then he should have been fired for that.
Indeed!
The fact that he wasn't fired for his past behaviour doesn't necessarily mean that his past behaviour was acceptable.
Not firing him for his past behaviour may just have been an error of judgement.
If I get away with (say) stealing once, that shouldn't mean I now have carte blanche to steal anything without consequence.
There was even a case in Melbourne where a slightly mentally impaired man was accused of sexual harassment because he’d try and be friendly to everyone and it came off wrong.
I’d like to think we’d have some amount of compassion for these people and help them function in society.
I too am autistic, and it does not excuse this behaviour. Yes people should have compassion and patience with neurodivergent people, and everyone has been with Stallman. This is not one incident, but a string of incidents that show an underlying pattern.
Exactly, it just looks like a joke, banter to lighten the situation. It all depends on context, that we don't have.
People really should find and pass around a link to a full writeup of that event rather than relaying rumours.
Given the number of movies where this happens, i'd be very surprised that did not happen in reality from time to time, and that it is considered unacceptable.
I think whether something is or isn't acceptable very much depends on the people involved. Though, I also find it unacceptable, just like you.
I heard this a lot - people on the spectrum damning Stallman. But isn't it called a spectrum for a reason?
In fact I have strong compassion for those calling it an aggression.
their life must be miserable if they can't take a simple thing like that.
It happened to me more than one time, one of them stalked me, I never called them "aggresive bitches", they just had a few problems expressing emotions, that's it and I calmly explained to them why we couldn't be together.
If you really are autistic, you should know what it means trying to be like everybody else when you're different.
So am I and I often come off as awkward with a list of misinterpretations to the point of having a "do not interact with this person as they won't understand" list to avoid it.
His behaviour is typical of someone with an foot on the spectrum and I don't see too much oddity in his behaviour. He's obsessed with meaning of words, comes off the wrong way, seemingly no social manners by most standards yet it's incredibly consistent which hints to different interpretations of social interaction.
His behaviour isn't "problematic" in this case, rather, it's correct in a desire for exactness.
I also saw those accusations, but I didn't see any proof of the harassment except one girl that said Stallman asked her on a date. And bothering? you really think you can go for 60 years on this earth without bothering any person?
For me, the implication of a mattress in his office are that he might sleep there. Any other implications are in the dirty mind of the accusers.
So every male at MIT is creepy then.
> defending adults having sex with children.
He was just arguing about the science available at the moment and even links the study on his website (everything is still there, he is not hiding anything)
Because nobody knows them.
But if it is creepy for RMS, it is for anyone else who did it.
Where is the outrage?
Half their age is perfectly legit if one is 25 and the other is 50.
You should be more precise.
I believe most of the men in positions of some power and acclaim at MIT aren't asking undergrads out, and yes, those that are shouldn't be in that position of power and/or acclaim.
Seriously?
Epstein was really well-esteemed.
Weinstein was very well-esteemed
Polansky was very well-esteemed
Ethan Zuckerman (MIT) was very well-esteemed
Stallman did nothing of the sort.
They are just legends built around a weird guy who comes out creepy when tries to be friendly.
And they started because he was not popular in college but usually right
People hate the outcasts that expose their faults in public
It ruins their projected image
It hurts their giant ego
BTW: I've been young and creepy sometimes to women, they've been creepy to me (one even stalked me and my girlfriend), most of the time we've been cool around each other.
"She said, he said" is a very bad way to evaluate a person in an objective way.
"They told me that one time" it's the beginning of everyone's life, when you are 66 and lived the life Stallman has lived, that one time, repeated over and over, becomes almost a truth.
It's like John Lennon saying "The best drummer in the world? Ringo is not even the best drummer in The Beatles"
Or Ozzy Osbourne eating bats
Or Van Halen's "no brown M&M's" rule
> yes, those that are shouldn't be in that position of power and/or acclaim.
Why not? What's bad in asking a female student out? Is it some sort of crime for males to date females? Is it something only low-level males not occupying any positions allowed to do? It is bad if someone tries to use their power to coerce a female to a date, but if he just asks, and the female is not dependent on him in any way and is free to refuse if she doesn't find him attractive - what exactly is the problem here?
If true, that is deeply disturbing behavior.
Not even RMS.
It seems more likely to me he made the threat legitimately, but chose not to follow through.
Do you have evidence for your assertion that it was a joke?
The woman who experienced it certainly didn't perceive it as one.
If you genuinely think RMS was considering suicide over a date refusal, your likelyhood calibrations way off. He's weird, but he's not raving maniac. It is ok to exaggerate a little sometimes for the sake of argument, maybe, but really, there's bound of how far the credulity can be stretched.
> Do you have evidence for your assertion that it was a joke?
I just said it in my previous comment. Also, I've seen people. Virtually nobody, excepting gravely mentally ill people that are most likely already on heavy meds and being treated by psychiatrists, commits suicide over a date refusal from a random female.
> The woman who experienced it certainly didn't perceive it as one.
Not getting the joke is a common occurrence. I sometimes not get the jokes, even by professional comedians. And RMS never been a professional in this, so some rate of failure is expected. Making a huge deal out of it almost 40 years after it happened (to zero harm for anyone involved) is the insane part here. Especially as this seems to be the only documented episode of supposed myriads of harassment incidents RMS is supposedly famous for.
My perspective is that he made the threat in bad faith - trying to coerce the girl into going out with him, but without a truly deep depression and intention to kill himself. I expect there was and is at least some depression there - perhaps he really did consider killing himself but decided not to.
I am unfortunately very used to seeing people try to hide obnoxious behavior behind "it was just a joke, calm down," when people take offense instead of giving them what they want, so I very rarely find that explanation satisfactory.
There are other things feeding into my assessment that I haven't gone into - a story of him picking out one of the few women in a lecture hall as an "Emacs Virgin" and saying that in the Church of Emacs it is blessed to lose your virginity. Yeah, that clearly was a joke, but it was a tasteless one that gives a little too much insight into his perspective.
There's also the photo of his MIT office nameplate that said something like "Knight For Justice (also: hot ladies)" which, yes, is probably a joke, but reads like one of those "ha ha, only serious" jokes oldschool hackers are rather known for, and is once again a joke he absolutely shouldn't have been making (especially not from a position of power).
There are also the various hints on his website over the years that he was (and perhaps still is) single and frustrated by that. An anecdote about his official non-girlfriend stands out in my memory, as I recall.
It's not a "threat", since no reasonable people would take it seriously (just as no reasonable female would sue a suitor when he says "I am willing to give the whole world to you" but then refuses to give her mere $10000). If you ever been in a romantic relationship, you may know that courtship language involves some amount of flourish and exaggeration. Including worlds like "I can't live without you" and "you are the only thing my heart beats for" and so on. I could bring you a dozen examples from poetry, songs, etc. but I think you get my drift anyway.
Now, could the student in question genuinely misunderstand him and decide maybe he's genuinely suicidal? Maybe yes. People are weird. Maybe no, and she's misremembering or outright lying. Maybe the author of the article misunderstood or misquoted her (she's certainly motivated to do so as it's her only example of Stallman-female interaction over 30 year span which has anything objectionable at all, without it she's left with zero). There could be many options here. One option that is one of the least likely is that he genuinely "threatened" her - and it is obvious she didn't consider the threat seriously (otherwise she'd probably agree to a date and then call mental health services to report a suicidal person who's about to hurt himself). If somebody asked me to do something and I genuinely believed he'd kill himself if I didn't, I'd certainly not just say "no" and nonchalantly walk away.
> I am unfortunately very used to seeing people try to hide obnoxious behavior behind "it was just a joke, calm down,"
That happens. Many bad things happen. However, this has nothing to do with present case - Stallman is not Jesus sent to us to answer for the sins of the world. The only sins he has to answer for are his own, and so far the list is pretty thin.
> a story of him picking out one of the few women in a lecture hall as an "Emacs Virgin"
And? It may be not very tactful to single out a person (I am an introvert and can sympathize with hating being singled out) as a prop, but there's nothing sinister in it. Some social interactions aren't to everybody's liking, that happens. And the pearl-clutching over the word "virgin" is better left to a victorian era where the feet of the furniture were covered lest they suggest any dirty thoughts to anybody.
> is probably a joke
Probably? Seriously? Probably?
> a joke he absolutely shouldn't have been making (especially not from a position of power).
Why not? So, he declared himself a knight (people known - though often wrongly - for their chivalrous and courteous behavior towards females) for "hot ladies". And? What harm exactly did that do (and btw what terrible Power did Stallman have in MIT, except having his own office?)
> There are also the various hints on his website over the years that he was (and perhaps still is) single and frustrated by that
Oh horror. Now you really shocked me. He is single, but he doesn't want to remain single? What a pervert. And he dares to tell the word about the depth of this perversion - wanting to find a mate! I remember I've read in some depraved book (I am sorry, but I must confess to reading this clearly pornographic pamphlet for the sake of discussion - I was young and reckless back then): "It is a truth universally acknowledged that a single man in possession of a good fortune must be in want of a wife" - but I never thought I would encounter a real-life example of such a monstrous creature myself. Why didn't you say it from the start? That alone would be the proof of all allegations and more.
I will say that in my romantic relationships I have always striven to tell the truth - phrases like "I can't live without you" are not things I ever said. My wife would either laugh hysterically or be offended at my lack of connection to reality if I resorted to that sort of baseless hyperbole.
I freely acknowledge that we're unusual in that regard. It's a big part of what attracted us to each other.
Apart from that, I have little else of value to add to the conversation. It's become obvious our perspectives are strongly divergent, and while I understand yours, you're pushing me away from accepting your conclusions rather than encouraging me towards them.
For clarity's sake, I'll add that it's clear the media did in fact misrepresent Stallma terribly, and I wish they had not. Several publications summarized his statements about Epstein exactly wrong. Whether that was malicious or incompetence I can't know.
That does not materially change my perception of events (I never believed the misreports of what he said, as I went straight to the leaked email thread), nor of Stallman's character (he has always struck me as a pedantic literalist who espouses high ideals but is mean and rude to actual people who don't align with his ideals).
I don't know the man personally at all, so that perception should be taken with the proverbial grain of salt. I might be entirely wrong.
You are a unique human specimen that sets the example for all of us, the shining light, the city on the hill. However, even from the heights of your perfection you should be aware that average humans do engage in courtship which involves saying stuff like that, exaggerating, saying silly and pompous things, etc. If you read any literature, seen any movies, have any non-paragon-of-virtue friends, etc. That's how us, regular humans, flirt. Sometimes (obviously, there's no single script for it). Presenting it as some sinister "threat" is unfair and, frankly, insane.
> he has always struck me as a pedantic literalist who espouses high ideals but is mean and rude to actual people
Yes, Stallman can be mean and rude. I had an occasion to personally interact with him, and he was mean and rude to me, though it didn't matter much and I am not going to claim I was scarred for life - I only remember it because it involved Stallman, otherwise I shrugged it off. However, it's not and should not be a basis of unpersoning campaign and a pileup he was a target of, and I think he was treated very unjustly, and him being mean and rude sometimes does not justify such treatment. What was done to him was very wrong. That's the point.
I've also done this, please don't get me fired. Well, I was 15 at the time, but perhaps still better socially adjusted than Stallman at 60.
Oh horror! How can a man be so depraved, so devoid of any common decency, so enthralled to his animalistic desires as to ask out a MIT undergraduate! Who'd even think such thing is possible in our enlightened time. We all thought we are way past MIT undergrads being asked out, but here we go again.
This is the kind of fearless leader we need in the software world.
Plus the healthy snacks his feet provide
I heard about advice given to some women to keep plants, so that he does not come. But that is not the same as story about Stallman harassing someone, it is story about people thinking he is creep, but no specific on anything he was supposed to do to women without plants (hope the difference is clear).
You are repeating defamatory rumours without a shred of evidence.
April Glaser on Twitter specifically talks about accusations against him: https://twitter.com/aprilaser/status/1174093253433380864
Here's the reality though, every woman who steps up and admits publicly is probably going to get harassed. Some fuckheads on the internet are going to bother her and harass them. I imagine the # of public complaints is going to be pretty low.
Somehow the definition of harassment used by a wide variety of people seems to be "I don't like his opinion" if I judge from the linked twitter post... If it goes forward this way I could picture people rallying in front of libraries and burning a lot of books. Would someone please enlighten me how "Lolita" is any less worse than RMS-ramblings?
That then also explains paragraph 3, since when you "step up" claiming you got harassed and it turns out you just disagree with the offendees opinion/behavior at large, you are harassed again by people disagreeing with you... This is kind of brain-dead but apparently a certain kind of reality happening on this planet called "earth"...
For the moment, I recommend we stick to just legal standards. (Such as if he drugged/raped someone, the way Cosby and Weinstein did.)
What did he do, exactly?
Has he been convicted of something now?
No, he didn't.
Thomas Lord who worked with him says
> One remarkable thing about the FSF at that time, when we worked out of dinky spare offices on the campus of MIT, was the degree of participation by women. In the tiny society that was then the FSF, women were more prominent than I had seen in Silicon Valley, or acadamia prior. The general culture of inclusiveness and tolerance that RMS fostered meant that, at least when I was there alongside Bushnell, that social circle in and around the organization was feminized and all the stronger for it.
Let's see them then.
I'm sure there are real testimonies of real people.
Of course he did (and does). It's well known. Here's HN from 11 days ago: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20979343
I have personally read, in the last few weeks, over a dozen statements by women who were driven out of FSF by Stallman.
I don't even move in those circles. There must be many more who don't feel like speaking up and getting harassed by all the neckbeards.
Richard Stallman, Knight for Justice - Also Hot Ladies
https://miro.medium.com/max/4080/1*lDSkAjF1958TpEafxuJsLg.jp...
And I've personally spoken with 4 of them that say the exact opposite.
Drop some name please, accusations need proof.
> I don't even move in those circles
I do.
> Richard Stallman, Knight for Justice - Also Hot Ladies
Old joke, stupid sign, nothing severe, it's been there forever together with the sticker of Amnesty International (if you haven't noticed), nobody complained for ages, suddenly high paid engineers that without GCC wouldn't have the same high paid job complain that RMS makes them feel uncomfortable, even though they "don't even move in those circles"
Let's be serious, please don't make me quote Roger Murtaugh.
The four that you know may not have attracted RMS' attention.
> Drop some name please, accusations need proof.
It's up to the alleged victims to go public, if they so wish, IMHO. (Though announcing un-sourced / anonymously-sourced claims isn't exactly a great thing either.)
so he can control himself.
He doesn't just throw himself at every woman that comes around.
Just like the rest of us...
> It's up to the alleged victims to go public
Fact is, I don't think they even exist.
Not because victims do no exist in general, but because at worse RMS has been weird or inappropriate, but dangerous, threatening, scary or violent?
It never happened.
I'm sure.
In the ideal world any claim like this would be backed up with evidence.
But why would you punish yourself for someone else's acts?
Of course, that moment's hesitation when picking a filesystem in an installer menu is quite different from choosing an OS :)
[1] https://web.archive.org/web/20150921073059/article.gmane.org...
Obviously all a conspiracy by the diabolical Bill Gates, who definitely has time for such important conspiracies, and his evil corporation M$, to "infiltrate" Gnooo Slash Linux and take over the world. Roy Schestowitz has yet to do anything positive for free software. But, rest assured, he probably doesn't have a real PhD.
Edit: To be fair, Mono was kind of shit at the time, for purely technical reasons, and it was threatening to be used in ridiculous places despite that. That didn't happen in the end, again for technical reasons. It has steadily improved since then, and Microsoft's position around the Mono project obviously changed for the better. That, and Microsoft really didn't have trouble suing people for using Linux anyway (https://www.reuters.com/article/us-microsoft-samsung-elec-se...). So he's not exactly wrong, in broad strokes. Just terrible. In an alternate universe, perhaps Roy Schestowitz's army of neckbeards would be remembered for saving the day instead.
The personal, character failings of public figures are tolerated until they run out of goodwill. Then a "scandal" occurs. Nothing new is actually discovered. We always knew about President Clinton's extra marital stuff. It just didn't matter, until it did.
I don't have anything useful to add about Outrage Culture. Along with everyone else, I'm still trying to figure it out. Closest analogy I can think of is candidate Gary Hart put his head in the lion's mouth one too many times.
--
My take on RMS is a little bit, um, unconventional. Having never met him, I imagine he's somewhere between neurotypical and an ultimatist and a square peg in a world of round holes. His pedantry regarding Minsky wasn't wrong, exactly. It was just unwittingly in bad taste. A common recurrence for RMS.
Unfortunately for RMS, this time it mattered. Per the bit about scandals above; public opinion towards RMS crossed some unmarked tipping point, and he doesn't have enough allies to help save his public image.
RMS will be fine.
And I'm actually okay with this kind of court of public opinion. I want our public figures to keep pace with the times, to adapt, to remain effective & relevant. If RMS can't or won't, then it's his time to sit down, and let someone more palatable serve as arrow catcher for a while (the job of the ultimatist).
> I want our public figures to keep pace with the times, to adapt, to remain effective & relevant
No you really don't want your public figures to try and optimize for things that result in good public opinion, though outlining my reasoning for this would probably be around 2000 words, so not doable on a phone. (I started writing, then realized how big a topic that is)
RMS could have demanded an investigation. Wait for the firestorm to subside.
"you really don't want your public figures to try and optimize for things that result in good public opinion"
Ya. I really do. Progress marches on, social norms adapt.
Despite the recurring inevitable oversteer, currently manifesting as outrage culture, no way I want to go back in time.
My only excuse is that I really didn't want RMS to be a bad guy, like ESR.
Be wary of heroes. They'll disappoint you.
He's perfectly capable of doing that himself.
There was a time where his style of firebrand-like vitriol against proprietary software was crucial. But that time is over. GNU/Linux won, it won years ago.
GNU does not have the influence it once did. It is an organisation geared up to solve the problems of the early 90s.
The real crux is this, "computing" and free software is not the preserve of academia anymore. It should be for everyone. Which means getting rid of deliberately antagonistic behaviour.
It serves noone.
I want my children to follow in my footsteps, as I followed my dad. But they can't do that if we cling to these idols who bully, cajole and generally act like obnoxious arseholes. There is just no need anymore. It doesn't work, it doesn't make for better code.
Crucially it serves as an excuse to let abusers, psychopaths and other nasties continue to abuse people "because RMS, Jobs & Ballmer all did it"
No, that kind of behaviour has to stop.
I'm sorry, but being a rude and obnoxious person doesn't mean the local lynch mob gets to decide when you have to step down from the foundation you created in the name of ensuring human freedom for generations to come.
Linux has hardly "won". Most of my friends and coworkers use Mac or Windows. Your post is filled with short-sighted, opinionated nonsense.
RMS continues to fight the good fight despite the public turning on him so readily.
No, but considering that his is a position of mostly PR and management nowadays, the majority of the community can agree that having a rude and obnoxious person as their visible head is neither doing any favors to their external image nor helping them move forward internally.
Linux has won in the server (and others) by being the better technical product. Linux has lost the desktop war (and laptop, and mobile unless you count android) by being the inferior product in terms of UX, ease of use and in general ignoring everything that isn't pure technical areas. As the parent comment said, this was fine when tech was mostly isolated from mainstream users, but it doesn't cut it anymore. We need new kinds of people, and new visions, for new kinds of challenges.
This is not a judgement of him as a person or his former work, mind you. It's a judgement of the qualities that we'd hope for in a leader/public face and whether RMS fits the role nowadays.
I am unaware we voted on this topic.
Also Linux won on the server because it is free as in beer.
[citation needed]
Anyway, even if it was true, has him become disposable?
> want my children to follow in my footsteps, as I followed my dad
Maybe your dad wasn't such a great person for other people except you though.
Maybe I would prefer my kids being more like RMS than me or your dad or you.
What you want it's irrelevant.
> who bully, cajole and generally act like obnoxious arseholes
he's been bullied all of his life, because he never conformed to any norm.
And there are people like you keep doing that.
There's that too.
I don't want my children to be in a workplace run my angry bullies. I don't want anyone's kids to be run by angry bullies. But then you knew that already, you're a clever sausage really.
> And there are people like you keep doing that.
are you seriously trying to gatekeep non-conformism.
Not in any real sense. There is a lot of open source[1] software in use but the current state of computing doesn't have much to do with freedom.
Open Source may have won, Free Software hasn't.
What the fuck? What percentage of consumer computing devices in the world are running free software? Windows+OSX+iOS+Android account for >96% of market share. In what world, in what possible conception, did GNU/Linux "win"?
>GNU does not have the influence it once did. It is an organisation geared up to solve the problems of the early 90s.
Like: free phone OS, decentralization, federation and self-hosting, real-time voice and video chat, accessibility, an AI assistant. [1]
>cling to these idols who bully, cajole and generally act like obnoxious arseholes.
>Crucially it serves as an excuse to let abusers, psychopaths and other nasties continue to abuse people "because RMS, Jobs & Ballmer all did it"
Again, what the fuck, am I seriously missing something here, or when did Stallman ever "abuse" someone? How is he a "psychopath"? A "bully"? A "nastie" (what is this, 2nd grade)?
Maybe if you get formal education or go to a boot camp to learn software development. The "future of computing" is in walled gardens like Chromebooks, iPads or Windows S. Not allowing software development on them is part of the added value. Google plans on getting rid of Linux and replace it with Fuchsia once it has matured.
I get his point, but we have to draw lines somewhere, even if they're imperfect. It's like saying speed limits don't stop all speeding, or gun laws don't prevent all gun violence. Of course not, but in both cases we have to try. We have to try to protect minors whose brains aren't fully developed as well, even if pedophiles don't like it.
RMS did walk back his comments after speaking with close friends of his on the subject, essentially agreeing with what I'm saying here.
im sure it leaves a bad taste in a lot of mouths what the leader of GNU has done and how he thinks.
RMS loves freedom more than many of us, that's why "consent" is so important to him (I guess).
Part of what gave Epistine the ability to do what he did was the fear people had of speaking about what they understood to be reality when they knew it would upset their coworkers or employers.
RMS’s lack of that fear (regardless of wether his ideas truly corresponded with reality) is what got him fired. This demonstrates that those fears aren’t unfounded and empowers certain kinds of extremely abusive people far more than any semantic argument about rape or pedophilia could.
It leaves a bad taste in my mouth when people leap to the defense of people in positions of institutional and cultural power who behave in a way that disempowers and dehumanizes marginalized people.
See also https://mobile.twitter.com/_sagesharp_/status/11736371384133...
I struggle with names at times...
And now pronouns? Uhhhh, I bet I screw it up more than 50% of the time. The differences in people (don't say god bless you you to some indians or muslims when they sneeze, for example) are more than I can keep track of at times. Does that make me a creep?
There was one guy his chose "The Great and Powerful <something>" for his pronoun. Yeah, I'll remember that...
At what point do you become a creep for not remembering? At what point do you become a target for the SJW hit squad?
I haven't met someone yet who has preferences outside of that. But you know what? If I met one, it would cost me virtually nothing to respect their preferences and make them feel seen.
And to be clear -- it's absolutely fine (usually) to make mistakes, so long as you're making an effort to be respectful. It's not ideal to not remember someone's pronouns (and again, 99% of the time when it's different than what you'd expect, it's either "he", "she", or "they"), but it's also usually not the end of the world -- most people I know, myself included, are fine if you say "oops! my bad".
Intentions go a long way.
I thought I covered that in 2 ways...
1) Random thoughts from an old guy
2) I was giving an example of the differences between people.
I have been chastised in the past for saying bless you to some people. I've kind of trained myself now to say "Maay the diety of your choice bless you" in some cirumstances but I also get chastised for that. I've also been chastised for remaining silent. So, what choice do I make here to not be "creepy".
For whatever it's worth.
I always say "gesundheit", which is normal in German (it translates to "health"). As a non-religious person, I don't understand why religious people always want to push religion on everyone around them.
The other thing you can do is just not say anything at all when someone sneezes. Asian cultures don't have this practice at all.
I'm not religious at all and I still say "bless you" since it's from the culture I grew up with of wishing others well. If anyone finds that offensive then they certainly have more issues than I do.
You're not just wishing them better health; you're wishing that your preferred deity magically give them better health. So you're pushing your faith in that deity on that person.
>I'm not religious at all and I still say "bless you" since it's from the culture I grew up
The culture I grew up in (America, specifically the South) does the same thing. It also has other great things in its "culture", like murdering black people with nooses during the Jim Crow days, and generally being intolerant of people who are different. "The culture I grew up in" is not a good excuse for bad behavior, and that includes pushing religion on people.
As for culture, sure, every single one is at some point guilty of crimes against humanity such as in my country [1], [2], etc and we must be able to look past those things as otherwise it's impossible to change for the better.
We will be different, have different beliefs, different sexuality, different colours of skin, and different languages to convey our thoughts. If we continue to see even an act of kindness as hostile then I don't have much hope people will ever get over differences. It shouldn't be different if they're Christian, Sunni, or any else and extend their greeting in their way to you along with their own way of wishing you well. What matters most is the intention rather than if they're from the same faith as you.
[1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compulsory_sterilisation_in_Sw... [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Midsummer_crisis
This may come as a shock to you, but there's a lot of people in the world who don't have any "preferred deity", and really don't appreciate religious people trying to push their myths on them.
>It's rather sad that even an act of kindness is now seen as bad behaviour simply from refusal to accept that we have different ways of showing it.
This reminds me of Christians who want to give food to starving people, but only if they sit and listen to some stupid sermon trying to get them to convert.
If you want to be kind, then don't tie your "act of kindness" to your belief system in an attempt to convert others to it.
This is generally an American problem too. Other cultures, even when they do have a religion, don't really care about pushing it on others. Even in Europe, most modern-day Christians there seem to keep their religion very private (hence why Germans say "gesundheit" when someone sneezes, even though Germany is traditionally a Christian country).
Well I live in Europe as I'm Swedish; in the UK it's common to say "bless you" while in Sweden we usually say "prosit" (the two I've spent a significant portion of my life in). The former would even be from those not following Christian traditions but rather as stated before. This seems to reflect the trend in quite a few others in Europe such as Spain, Ireland, Wales (UK), etc.
Again, most of it isn't an attempt at "converting" or even some other hidden motive. It may be different in other parts of the world but from the places I've lived in Europe it's been as I've stated.
But I you really try to remember, but can't overcome your programming (I do that often with my non-binary acquaintances, it's hard as fuck, but I guess I'm getting old as well ¯\_(ツ)_/¯) then you are a human being that tries to be respectful. And that's a good thing! So take a look in the mirror and try to see which one you are and ignore those disrespectful human beings that would call you a creep for not remembering.
How is that not respecting others?
One could also make claim that choosing some ridiculous new pronoun is disrespectful of others. People were content with he/she for thousands of years and some could consider inventing new ones similar to 1984's Newspeak.
Of course, but that hypothetical person who put forward this claim doesn't subscribe to the generally accepted definition of respect so I don't see why we should discuss that person.
Ok. Now I understand. Read my comment again. We're talking about hypotetical person A who claims that another hypothetical B person who wants to be called by a ridiculous pronoun is disrespectful.
A says that B is disrespectful.
I said that it is A who doesn't know what respect is.
Sorry that you got confused.
> Respect, also is called esteem, is a positive feeling or action shown towards someone or something considered important, or held in high esteem or regard. It conveys a sense of admiration for good or valuable qualities. And it is also the process of honoring someone by exhibiting care, concern, or consideration for their needs or feelings.
My emphasis. I don't know if you define "respect" in your own way or you only care about people's feeling if they have a certain skill level or have achieved/contributed enough.
This seems acceptable to me. Stallman has always been weird with word choice but I see no bad intent here.
And to other's that seems like he doesn't respect the wishes of others and instead behaves in a way that is logically sound in his own mind. That's not a crime. Just a disrespectful way of behaving that generates antagonists instead of friends.
Side note: "per" is very funny to me as a swede since it's a super common traditionally(exclusively?) male name.
That goes both ways though.
Please define "others". It should be a definition that is not only "transgender people". Could it be "all the people in the world that is not you"?
If so, it is impossible to please them all. Some will contradict each other. It will generate antagonists or you will be seen as rude whenever you want it or not.
So you may decide you will be siding and pleasing those "others" who are "right" (based on your personal preference only). But at the same time, not everyone who is "not right" is necessarily "wrong".
I'm not siding with anyone, and I won't tell if I use or not special pronouns. But today the discussion is about pronouns. Tomorrow, who knows? Up to where are you willing to bend?
I'd be more wary of the people with low integrity who just say what others want to hear, they change their speech but doesn't actually change their behavior and will still discriminate and undermine groups even when forced to change their speech pattern.
Stallman seems to me like a person with an extremely high level of integrity, if a normal person believe that voluntary pedophilia is fine they would just shut up and join the mob but not Stallman. He faced his world view head on and no longer believe that pedophilia is fine, and we can be pretty sure that he actually changed since he doesn't buckle to pressure. The same can not be said about most politicians and other conventional leaders.
Yep, they're the worst in my book as well.
I don't really understand this. When I'm talking to an adopted child, I have no trouble calling their parents their parents, even though they're objectively guardians. When I'm dining with religious folks, I have no trouble saying "Amen" or some such phrase from their religion despite me being an atheist.
Saying something you don't objectively believe out of consideration for others' feelings is normal, and it's fairly basic manners.
BTW as I have long blond hair I'm called madam quite often and learned not to be bothered by it though I'm a cis hetero white male. Furthermore it comes often from children, who speak the truth as everyone knows. So grow a spine and fight, don't nag everyone else to be nice. People aren't nice. The world isn't any more just than we make it. And lynching (even symbolically) isn't the way to get a just world. Victims aren't noble. Fighters are. See Malcolm X. MLK. Rosa Luxemburg. Daniel Guérin.
Have you ever been forced to use a women's bathroom because of your, probably fabulous, hair?
On the other hand, how many different toilets should there be in your world? Should non transgender women be allowed in women's toilets? That has been an actual question and an actual problem to solve in the world of infinitely exploded communities of precious snowflakes (in the very same order of absurdity, should veiled white women allowed in "coloured women only" meetings? what about transgender black women?).
As food for thought, if you believe that, as a white cis male, I'm a born oppressor, I've also been actually harassed, publicly humiliated, attacked and beaten for being "a fag" (you know, long blond hair), because homophobes don't really care about who you actually are, and also beaten for defending women harassed on the street (because machos/sexists are also generally violent).
In the global competition for victimhood, nobody can win. Who knows what humiliations RMS was subjected to for being ugly, fat, an asocial geek, etc. Maybe he used the power he has in some sets and circumstances in despicable ways. But so do the students at Evergreen, because that's just what human beings do. Being an aggressor or a victim is mostly circumstantial for most people.
Do you think that the person who looked at you and proceeded to call you a fag showed you respect?
I've worked for a doctor doing sex change treatments, a long time ago. I've seen people that suffered incredibly. Some of them looked like caricatures, but that was certainly not funny. I took, naturally, great care in calling them "sir" or "madam" as they expected (and it sometimes required actual effort, and it was poignant and upsetting just thinking of the looks these persons must have received back outdoors).
However I don't feel like wanting to be called some very special pronoun that nobody ever heard of because you're oh so special falls into the same category. I don't feel that people wanting to be in their own very special niche class of genre, race or whatever category is sane, good and healthy, or some form of progress. Happiness isn't finding some form of very individualistic achievement.
1) That's not a feeling, that's an opinion. 2) And really? Do you think you have the answer to how people should find "happiness". Then you should write one more book on the subject and become another self help millionaire. You seem appropriately sure of yourself so, go nuts!
That sounds terribly exaggerated. If this is the way to describe Stallman, what adjectives could be reserved to the much worse people out there?
You may not care about a random dude in the internet giving you an advice, but consider both sides of the coin and don't fall so quickly into manichaeism.
No proof of that.
>and made them uncomfortable
Not a crime.
>he outright fired a transgender woman from the FSF for reporting her transphobic coworker
No proof of that, no proof of the coworker being transphobic, also all of that is not a crime.
>See also https://mobile.twitter.com/_sagesharp_/status/11736371384133....
That's the same person that accused Linus Torvalds of harassment and made him quit. Coincidence?
Not a crime.
I beg your pardon? Just because the police doesn't come after you (and depending how far he went, it might have been a literal crime), doesn't mean a behavior is acceptable.
Do you have an employed job? In most work places creating a "hostile work environment" is a very good reason (and rightfully so) to be fired.
Also, Jesus, they literally classified asking someone out on a date as sexual harassment.
And by my understanding, he certainly was way more direct than asking someone out for a date. Have you seen the "pleasure cards"?
I can testify of him harassing people privately over public discussions on mailing lists.
Yes, having been asked "business or pleasure" countless times during his travel, his "pleasure card" is a nice pun on "business card". Of course, some might not like puns, so this reduces to "guy uses corny joke to introduce himself." I'm sure that never happened before.
https://fossforce.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/07/RMSleisure....
> I can testify of him harassing people privately over public discussions on mailing lists.
Taking disagreements off-list is now harassment instead of good form?
Feel free to reproduce exactly these harassing private exchanges here. I'm fairly sure rms wouldn't mind, so there is nothing stopping you from providing actual evidence for this particular accusation.
It wasn't disagreement, but aggressive harassment including legal threads.
That's the nerdiest joke that I ever heard.
BTW this is the first time I heard the pleasure card explanation. Poor choice for a joke.
I'm sorry, but this isn't a prerequisite for working in the software industry. You are not allowed to vilify someone over having an opinion about gender, just like you shouldn't fire someone for having a different opinion on it than you.
"Leah was at the time struggling with gender dysphoria and substance abuse. Since then, she has been managing these issues. She agrees that her behaviour was rash and is determined to find a unifying solution."
The people involved have moved on. The internet, however, is still trying to sling mud where there is none in an embarrassing display of social lynching and lack of loyalty to people who have done so much for human freedom.
"""We were referred to a statement released by the school's attorney, which says: "Mr. Vlaming insisted on treating a transgender student differently than other students in the classroom, singling out the student on the basis of gender identity. In addition, Mr. Vlaming refused to comply with administrators' directives to follow division policies. During the public hearing before the school board, Mr. Vlaming again stated that he would not comply with these directives. Accordingly, the school board voted unanimously to terminate his employment. """
The fired individual does not have the monetary resources to fight this in the courts.
It's not un-lawful however. If you asked them during the training for a specific law and a pointer to why they thought that it was un-lawful, you'd see pretty quickly they didn't actually have the force of law behind them.
I've been through a lot of training both at UC and in industry and a bunch of what is said simply isn't true. WHen I challenged the instructors, it became pretty clear they were just reading a script without any understanding of the actual laws and rules behind what they were saying.
"The U.S. Equal Employment Opportunity Commission (EEOC) has also addressed pronoun use with respect to transgender individuals in the workplace. In 2013, the EEOC held in Jameson v. U.S. Postal Service, EEOC Appeal No. 0120130992, 2013 WL 2368729 (May 21, 2013) that repeated, intentional misuse of a transgender employee’s new name and gender pronoun may constitute sex-based discrimination or harassment. It noted that “supervisors and coworkers should use the name and pronoun of the gender that the employee identifies with in employee records and in communications with and about the employee.” In its decision, the EEOC cited guidance from the Office of Personnel Management, which encourages federal employers to use pronouns appropriate to an employee’s expressed gender identity." -- https://www.natlawreview.com/article/he-saidshe-said-pronoun...
The trainer probably wasn't a lawyer and certainly wasn't your lawyer and definitely wasn't being paid to give you legal advice. What they were telling you was what they expected you to internalize so that your behavior would keep your employer well on the safe side of the law, which includes avoiding behaviors which are not individually unlawful per se but which could easily, in combination with other factors, be part of a pattern that might support a claim of a hostile work environment.
https://legal.thomsonreuters.com/en/insights/articles/prepar...
https://ogletree.com/insights/2016-03-21/the-new-california-...
People aren't seeing the forest for the trees, while one by one prerequisite precedents are being established for a new wave of authoritarian control. In any specific context, it seems laughable-- how could the RMS snafu and authoritarian power creep possibly be connected? But it's just one data point among many.
Oh yes you are allowed to vilify someone for bullying LGBT folks. People who do this are literally attacking other people over who they are and what they cannot change. Just imagine it would be about the color of their skin. Gender identity or sexual/dating preferences are the same thing.
The IT industry must grow up and accept people who are not white, cis alpha males.
Of course you're not supposed to bully anyone. That has nothing to do with this conversation.
Would you mind providing a citation for this? I am legitimately curious, Leah for example retracted their comments on the issue.
> Not to mention his refusal to respect the pronouns of trans, queer, and nonbinary folks.
Please elaborate. This is the first time that I hear of such an accusation.
> See also https://mobile.twitter.com/_sagesharp_/status/11736371384133....
I don't see anything wrong there. What is wrong with believing that victimless crimes should be legal? Also, asking someone on a date is harassment now? What?
He says that he took it from "Marge Piercy's book Woman on the Edge of Time"
> He refuses to respect singular "they".
He says "As for \"they\", if you are plural by nature — for instance, if you are a colonial organism or a group mind, or if you wish to be known for having multiple personalities — I will use that plural pronoun to refer to you.", which seems fair to me.
Singular "they" is common English. Not respecting it seems unfair to me.
He's extreme in following his dogma. If he believes "they" is plural in nature, he will refuse to use that as a singular - and that is not because he disrespects you, but because he thinks "this is the right thing to do".
If you believe it's fair to have a particular personality that requires other persons to call you "they".... doesn't it follow that it's fair to have a particular personality that makes you feel very bad about "misusing English"? It's really two sides of the same coin, if you believe a person has the right to decide what pronouns he's comfortable being called, you must also believe a person has the right to decide how he uses a particular pronoun. The essential thing here is that RMS doesn't avoid "they" out of disrespect, but out of his own particular weirdness/ peculiarity... something that we should be able to respect.