Tesla Software Version 10.0 | Hacker News Reader

Tesla Software Version 10.0

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368 pointsxvolter625 comments

I want a well-put-together electric car that's completely analog from the user's perspective. There's not a single user-facing digital feature I've ever seen on a car that I wanted, and in fact most of them make things worse.

Obviously there's some non-user-facing stuff, i.e. all-wheel-drive, which computerization has revolutionized. But any user-facing stuff is just awful. I want an electric car, but I don't want to be forced into some awful proprietary OS touch screen just to adjust my A/C, and I'm afraid companies are using the switch from gas to electric as an excuse to go in that direction.

Get yourself a used Ford Focus Electric. The range is small, but it's the perfect commuter car and is the closest thing to an "analog" electric car you'll find. Ford took the high-end Titanium body and interior and grafted the electric drivetrain into it.

Any gas car converted to electric is universally terrible. They have to mount the batteries extremely high because the chassis wasn't built for the batteries and this results in utterly horrible handling because the center of mass is too high.

Handling doesn't matter in city commuting. People also seem happy to buy SUVs and crossovers which have much higher centres of mass than hatchbacks.

Handling of a SUV, usefulness of a hatchback. It's like the worst of both worlds.

>usefulness of a hatchback

i.e. very? They've sold millions of them, that's not for the track performance.

I don't really want a commuter car. I live in an area with lots of snow, and when there's not snow on the ground I'm often driving to areas with less-than-ideal roads (for rock climbing). The way I use my Tacoma would eat that car alive. :D

The Mazda EVs coming out over the next couple of years won't have touchscreens, if that's close enough for you.

https://www.motorauthority.com/news/1121372_why-mazda-is-pur...

Sounds like you want the Bollinger B1.

https://bollingermotors.com/bollinger-b1/

That actually looks like exactly what I want, but we'll see if the reality lives up to their marketing materials.

Tesla 3 owner here. Beyond tapping up / down temperature arrows I don't ever need to touch my A/C settings and it remembers my settings when I pick my profile (and soon it will recognize me automatically) so I think it's less annoying than analog setup personally.

Having to fiddle with a touch screen to manage windshield wipers is unnecessary.

The wipers wipe automatically when the camera detects rain on the windshield. If you want to do a window clean you just push the button on the end of the blinker handle on the left of the steering wheel. It's one of the few physical buttons of the 3.

How often do you find yourself wanting to tweak the rate?

Rate is set automatically based on the amount of rain. The wiper clears the windshield for the cameras for autopilot so it keeps the view clear. I haven't had the urge to adjust the rate yet.

My car has that, but I tend to manually adjust it regardless as I find it's often a bit to slow or a tad too fast. Maybe I'm just picky. Or maybe your car's algorithm is better :-).

How well does the auto wipe behave on Tesla’s? I’ve owned multiple cars with the feature over the last 10 years - the only one which has ever got it close was a Lexus (quite some time ago). The rest I’ve had and still need to constantly police.

I don't know about other cars, but on my 2014 Passat it works flawlessly. I don't remember ever having to manually touch it.

I have a fairly new car, one of VW's brands, and at best I twiddle with the sensitivity a bit from time to time, but that's mostly unnecessary.

I haven't had to manually turn on the wipers, but I have had to turn them off on one or two occasions when the computer _thought_ it was raining for some reason.

Works OK on my 2016 Seat Alhambra. There's a little control that lets you adjust frequency/sensitivity on the wiper stalk.

2012 Passat and two Priuses (2nd and 3rd gen), all worked 95% of the time.

So 3 minutes of every hour of rain were left unwiped? Sounds dangerous. Or was that "internet statistics"?

It's a solved problem on newer cars.

What I want next is an automatic sunscreen that slides down based on sensing the angle of the sunlight. I think there is also technology to dynamically darken glass that could be used. I hereby grant a free perpetual license to auto manufacturers to use this idea. :)

> I think there is also technology to dynamically darken glass that could be used.

Looked into it previously. Even if you got it to work, it likely would not be street legal, as there are pretty strict regulations on what part of the windshield can or cannot be tinted.

It's behaved very well for me. There was only one instance when I was in a drive thru that it wiped the window even though it was dry, not sure if it was because the angle of the sunlight hitting some dirt or something.

Now that's just unlucky for parent :)

The great thing about the touch screen is not the UI experience, but the flexibility when it comes to updates that also include new features. When you go the hardware controller route on a product that is still heavily being interrated on, you quickly run out of intuitive ways to clearly label and/or manipulate things or an exzessive number of buttons with integrated screens (to indicate their function in any given context), neither of which is great UX wise and also pretty expensive.

>The great thing about the touch screen is ... the flexibility when it comes to updates that also include new features

That's the main problem. Change is good only if it's optional, by choice. Forced redesign only makes designers happy, because they can now stop looking at that old version that they released some years ago and want to sunset it.

If you look at the 2012 Tesla dashboard, you'll see that it's influenced by really aged design patterns, it's good that they iterate on the UI as long as it's kept in check and doesn't become a Windows 7 to Windows 8 fiasco.

They also automatically turn on in the car wash.

v10 added car wash mode, maybe this is the reason

Tesla owners are known to be willing put up with things other car owners aren't. I don't want to fool around with a touchscreen in traffic.

You can use the steering wheel and scroll up or down and you changed the temperature. No fooling around with touchscreen in traffic. It’s way better than any analog system I’ve used across Jeep’s and Audi’s.

You can control temperature, fan speed, brightness, and more all from the steering wheel.

Yes: https://youtu.be/kLIBYlgsHis?t=560

That video tutorial is now outdated since there has been many UI improvements, but the steps should still be the same.

Are you not highlighting another problem.

Buttons are always in the same place, I know where they are, I don't have to go hunting for the thing that used to be there, but is now in a sub sub menu, meanwhile you aren't looking where you're going.

Give me physical buttons and knobs any day. I'm afraid with the direction that things are going, that may become more and more difficult, and go the way of crank windows and manual transmissions, however.

Oh well. The way that sticker prices keep going up on new pickup trucks, frankensteining old ones together and rebuilding the engines and transmissions is looking like more and more of a viable and cost-effective option.

Get yourself a horse and buggy. Time tested approach. Just watch out for the manure.

Fortunately, one by one, car manufacturers are starting to get over the entire touchscreen fad, for example Mazda: https://thenewswheel.com/mazda-eliminates-touch-screens/

Geez people. It's NOT a submenu.. You just move the scroll-wheel up and down or push it to turn it on/off. It's that simple. It's also the default behavior.

Here: https://youtu.be/_eyxkzaNZX0

Do you get it now? Taking your hands off the steering wheel involves more steps compared to this.

The video you linked contains menus and submenus.

Yes for other controls. But the DEFAULT scroll functions controls the A/C you can see that its the top item when pressing the menu NOT scrollwheel

I made that video because this keeps coming up, I know how it works...

Maybe for that one example. In general a changing UI is not a good thing whilst trying to concentrate on other things. It isn't about hands on wheel, its about mental load, a hardware button is muscle memory, I don't have to look at it, I don't have think about it.

Ahhh backpedaling now are we? The topic was about A/C control... Hence that's the specific video proof I provided.

> It isn't about hands on wheel, its about mental load, a hardware button is muscle memory, I don't have to look at it, I don't have think about it. reply

I don't have to look to use the scroll wheel controls too. Did you not see on the video that they are physical buttons? What's your point exactly?

Why am I backpedalling? The conversation is allowed to evolve, you're the one who raised the point about the changing UI.

"I don't have to look to use the scroll wheel controls too"

No you have to look at the screen, while you're trying to find the thing that was right there before the update.

> No you have to look at the screen, while you're trying to find the thing that was right there before the update.

Anecdotally speaking no... The item order have NOT changed from updates since 2012. I own the car and I am not speculating here. The UI change I mentioned was mainly aesthetic, similar to the iOS 6 to 7 color/look change.

I even said it should be the same even with the updates on my original post?

> The conversation is allowed to evolve

Sure, whine on

> Taking your hands off the steering wheel involves...

Taking your hands off the steering wheel has never been a problem. Taking your eyes off the road is.

That being said, if you want to set a certain temperature with analog controls, you still need to look at the number (showing the degrees). Still, in other cars you can see that number all the time, you don't have to go into some menu. There is a dedicated physical button for that one function.

I avoid looking at the number by turning the dial all the way down (so I know where it is) and then up to where I want it.

I'm more than slightly annoyed that it starts with "choose menu"!!!

The demo person is constantly looking at his screen instead of in front of him.

For example, here is Audi's A/C controls in all of their new vehicles:

https://ae01.alicdn.com/kf/HTB1iETfhnSPY1JjSZPcq6xIwpXaw/ZWE...

You not only have to take a hand off the steering wheel, but also look to see which lever you want/need to press. If I'm changing the temperature I know where the dial is, but I also have to look to see what I'm setting it to.

I'm surprised people here think analog controls are a bulletproof solution to the same problems you're criticizing Tesla for. I have a hunch that if there were YouTube videos watching people change climate control settings in their car they'd not only be required to take hand off the wheel but also look down and away for a small period of time. Tesla's isn't perfect but you get to keep both hands on the steering wheel and head looking straight, but down ever so slightly.

We're criticizing bad UI design and the attitude that digital touch interface is automatically without fault and order of magnitudes superior to whatever was established in the last hundred years.

You can make bad UI with or without buttons.

Remember VCR clock controls?

I don't know if anyone has said digital touch is superior, I don't think it is. It's just a different way of solving the same problem. Can it be updated in the future unlike analog? Yep. Can you feel it with your hands like you can with analog? Nope.

I feel like I see more people saying first that digital is terrible and it should be analog, that they'll never get a car that has digital. The reasons they list are still true for analog though.

It doesn't matter if they "say" it. They act like they do and it speaks just as much.

Everywhere I look (modulo self bias) I find people that are in awe of the digital touch interface. In contrast I don't find people in awe of analog buttons. They just use them and complain when they don't work for whatever reason. Digital interface touch "buttons" don't work on cars. We complain. It's simple.

I also want to complain how Lamborginis have no manual transmission. Don't wanna drive something that boring.

i have an analog vehicle, and the car doesn't need to have to remember my settings because they are physically in the same location.

And what if you share your car with someone who prefers different settings?

Then they change the settings, and if they're a considerate human being, they change them back. If they're not, then you get to grumble a bit, change them back yourself, and consider not sharing your car with that person again. I don't think the world has lost anything substantial here.

Just realized I might be a grumpy old man.

Maybe you always share your car with a partner that's 25 centimeters shorter than you, requiring different settings for seat & steering weel position, and also has a different body composition that makes them want different climate control settings.

It shouldn't be so controversial to claim that automatic adjustment of settings is a net UX win this this common scenario.

Since at least 1987, Cadillac is offering this with simple hardware push buttons. We have that in a VW "group" car and turning the dial in the center console allow to adjust as needed the temperature + airflow in less than 1 second.

This problem was solved over a decade ago with memorized seating positions tied to the key fob. It wouldn’t have been too much of a stretch (pun not intended!) to memorize and set the temperature alongside the other settings using the existing system.

That's literally what the tesla does. You tie a profile to a key, card, or phone.

Right - I meant that it can also be accomplished with an old-school analog system, too. It doesn't require a tablet-based system like Tesla's as a baseline.

There's no tablet involved after the initial setup you do when you buy the car. As soon as I unlock the car, everything moves into place.

And for the set up, it is analog. There's 2 trackball-like things you jigger around to move your seat, mirrors, and steering column.

Is the climate control analog, too? That's really what I'm referring to.

The climate control is tied to your key fob too so it changes based on who unlocks it. It even stores the direct of the vents for people who like air in their face vs over their head or below their feet.

Sure, but this doesn't matter much to me. You're objectively right that this fits someone's wants, but it doesn't fit my wants.

I have yet to come across a problem on an old Jeep Cherokee or Toyota Tacoma that I couldn't figure out how to fix with a little help from the internet, and I'm by no means a car expert. Sometimes the parts cost or size has shut me down, but not the complexity. An electric motor is far simpler than a gasoline engine, so it should be easier to work on, not harder. Can you fix your Tesla's A/C if it breaks? Can most mechanics fix your Tesla's A/C if it breaks?

We're arguing different things. I was responding to a criticism that implied the "remember your settings" feature has no value when compared to a vehicle where all settings are set with physical buttons.

The point you're arguing boils down to a difference of preferences and philosophy, which is of course perfectly fine. Not everyone has the same preferences.

Similar to the changing the seat or steering wheel position, except easier to dial it back.

Like in any modern analog car, the knobs are free spinning and therefore remember their settings. It’s a tactile version of tapping a screen that is a better UX IMHO. When my significant other uses my car, they hit #2 on the preset settings and everything slides and turns into place. This is a well solved problem and has been for many years. Note: I am a former P85D Model S owner.

Free spinning knobs are not analog, but digital encoders.

“relating to or using signals or information represented by a continuously variable physical quantity such as spatial position, voltage, etc.” - from our friends at Oxford.

https://www.lexico.com/en/definition/analog

Spending 5 seconds changing the 3 settings that matter occasionally isn't a problem I care about.

Not being able to fix my own car because you've used space age technology to solve turning a dial IS a problem I care about.

> And what if you share your car with someone who prefers different settings?

There have been cars that change various settings depending on the key fob used ("hers and his"):

* https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lSoJPgFSDOE

Before fobs, where you actually put the key in the ignition hols, there were cars with "memory buttons".

Okay, but you're only looking at the (very minor) difference in user experience, without looking at all you're giving up. How easy is it to repair your A/C? If you can't or don't want to repair it yourself, can you hire someone other than Tesla to do it? Is not having to turn a knob worth having your car collect a bunch of personal data on you?

In accordance with Parkinson's Law of Triviality[1], the only discussion my post has generated has been about the experience of touch screens versus knobs, without talking about the more complicated repairability and security issues. My impression of Tesla is that they understand Parkinson's Law very well, and are working hard to get the color of the metaphorical bike shed just right. That's not to say that they're getting the nuclear reactor completely wrong, it's just to say that everyone's talking about the bike shed when the nuclear reactor is way more important.

At the end of the day, what I said was ultimately my preference, and your preference is your preference, and there aren't an objective arguments we can make that will change each other's subjective preferences. I'm just frustrated that the direction the industry seems to be going will cater to what you want, and not to what I want.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_of_triviality

Another user mentioned the Bollinger brand, they are making their EV's completely analog -- even more analog than ICE cars, their philosophy may be right up your alley. Unfortunately it doesn't sound like they're going for mass market (yet).

You should also look into how the A/C system works on the model 3, it's fascinating how simple it really is. It literally uses air to push the air up and down. This reduces the complexity with less moving parts. It's a very genius system IMO. Tech Forum YouTube channel made a video of it disassembled so you can see how it works: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MvNkcPcrBxw

> Another user mentioned the Bollinger brand, they are making their EV's completely analog -- even more analog than ICE cars, their philosophy may be right up your alley. Unfortunately it doesn't sound like they're going for mass market (yet).

Yeah, I saw that other comment and if the reality is even close to the marketing materials, those are gonna be awesome vehicles. I probably wouldn't get one new unless the price is very low (the benefits of buying new aren't worth the loss in value that happens when you drive a new car off the lot, IMO). So by the time they start hitting the used market I expect the reality will be clearer.

> You should also look into how the A/C system works on the model 3, it's fascinating how simple it really is. It literally uses air to push the air up and down. This reduces the complexity with less moving parts. It's a very genius system IMO.

I dunno, it's simpler in that there are fewer moving parts, but from the video it seems like part of how that was achieved was by using existing plastic molding and whatnot to direct the air, which makes it harder to replace i.e. one duct in isolation--it's not very modular. And having simpler moving parts is a small decrease in complexity compared to the increased complexity of digital controls. Of course it's hard to tell from the video, so that impression has to be taken with a grain of salt.

It's funny cause I used to have the same opinion, but then I saw the new Porsche Taycan and now I think Tesla is still very modest in comparison.

And then you have companies like Mazda who actually advocate the return of analog control (mentioned in another comment here).

The Taycan looks really cool, but it starts at 150k. And Tesla has autopilot. Tesla Model S is a fast car, but's also marketed to buyers who probably would not want to pay 150k+ for a Porsche.

Auto tuning radios are quite nice, and automatic chokes.

But in general I agree, I don't want to be battling some interface whilst I'm trying to drive.

I'm surprised there havent been moves in Europe to ban the Tesla type, everything on a tablet setup. I'm not allowed to use a phone whilst driving, why is a big screen on the centre console any different?

I was under the impression that tesla lets you adjust most of the settings using voice command, is that incorrect?

Are you suggesting from a safety point of view?

Perhaps? I know the latest studies suggest hands free phone calls aren't much better than handed phone calls [1], I don't know if there would be a difference between a conversation and barking out instructions in this context.

Id still prefer buttons.

[1] https://www.insurancejournal.com/news/international/2016/07/...

I personally believe texting while driving to be the main issue.

The number of times I’ve seen people cars swivel around on the highway texting can’t be counted.

If I’m driving with someone and I see cars behave erratic I usually bet the driver is texting. Mostly they are and it’s just too obvious - it’s for some reason a specific pattern to it. I can’t be alone in noticing this?

They do course adjustment less ofent and more jerky. It looks lile they are practicing driving for the first times.

I dont know if from safety point of view using voice command is far less unsafe than using buttons. Prolonged conversation on phone (handheld or free) is quite different.

Isn’t the conversation the main distraction with phones, exacerbated by the fact the other person can’t see the hazard you are approaching.

Don't you find a reversing camera useful? You can see much more than with your rear view mirror.

As an additional feature, yes, not as a replacement. The great thing about actual mirrors is that they don't need power to function and they can be replaced with any other in worst case.

Not needing power is kind of a moot point for an electric car tbh.

I am talking about the points of failure:

Mirror: Glas and attachment to car.

Rear View Camera: display, camera, any of the wiring in between, a few fuses.

I've never had one and I've never backed into anything without it.

I'm not really opposed to reversing cameras by themselves, but a) it takes up dashboard real estate for a feature I don't really use, and b) as soon as you put a screen on the dashboard, the company is going to want to put all sorts of annoying "features" into it.

Backup cams are mandated now, so it's good thing they didn't rely on this sample size of 1. Small children and pets everywhere will be less likely to get run over as a result.

The company puts those features in there because the market is telling them to. Bad UX is orthogonal to that fact.

I find the latency of these things to be really bad, and the "wide-angle" view is never wide enough (and what is with all of the parking guide lines they draw that never seem correct?)

...but then most modern cars seem to have abysmal visibility through the back windows anyway. The rear view from a 20 year old Micra I often drive is excellent, much better than any of the more modern cars I have hired.

There seems to be a lot of BlackBerry owners in this thread!

Most electric cars like the Leaf and Niro EV have traditional analog controls for AC and most other features. The touchscreen is mostly used for Satnav and music/radio in those cars. And really can you imagine Satnav without a touchscreen keyboard?

This is mostly because of legacy issues.

They have a supplier that has been doing analog knobs for them for half a century, and they're kind of obliged to still use their knobs.

Also the designers are very much in the "everything has to have a button" -mindset, which is hard to get out of.

> Also the designers are very much in the "everything has to have a button" -mindset, which is hard to get out of.

Good!

> And really can you imagine Satnav without a touchscreen keyboard

If you've ever sat in a recent upscale European car, you can. Unlike touch-screen keyboard solutions, entering destinations via scroll-wheel keyboard (like BMW does) or via guided voice entry is easily and safely possible while driving.

> The touchscreen is mostly used for Satnav and music/radio in those cars.

I already have a smartphone, which does both of these things better, and which I've already configured to my liking. The only thing a car can do better than my phone for either of these use cases is audio, so just give me a jack please.

The drive system is seperate from the screen MCU. If it crashes, the car still drives fine.

As an M3 user I can confirm.

Boy is it a thrill driving a car you have no instrumentation for! You can't even see how fast you're going.

Whenever I drive, it's perfectly located in my peripheral vision and easy to check. I even feel that moving it a bit out from the center actually encourages to keep my attention on the road rather than the instruments.

> Whenever I drive, it's perfectly located in my peripheral vision and easy to check.

...which is obviously irrelevant, if you've read the grandparent comment of your comment. Please read context before responding.

I think the GP is just rallying against digital interfaces, which is fair. Physical buttons and dials have far superior UX for cars.

I'd amend this a bit. I'm happy with digital read-outs, however driver input should in most cases through an analogue knob or switch.

I love Carplay in my car, but I'm luck enough ti have physical volume and next/last track button on a steering wheel stalk.

> I'd amend this a bit. I'm happy with digital read-outs, however driver input should in most cases through an analogue knob or switch.

Yeah, I can agree that some digital readouts are okay. It's really difficult to communicate succinctly what I don't like about modern digital car interfaces.

Why not smart assistant integration?

Me (driving): Alexa/Siri set temperature to 70 degrees

Alexa/Siri: temperature set to 70 degrees

I would love this, already do it with my smart thermostat + Alexa skill integration.

I wouldn't mind having the option of a car's voice assistant (exclusive for the car, where I have a signed contract with the manufacturer stating that what happens in the car stays in the car and doesn't get sold for ads). But I'd still very much prefer to have a dedicated physical button option for any basic function that a driver might use while driving. Not a button that navigates through a menu but something where I can use muscle memory and have the guarantee that it does what I expected without taking my eyes off the road for a second.

So for example the volume up button should always be a volume up button. They shouldn't change function because in some other menu I picked "temperature" instead of "volume".

I bought an Amazon Alexa Auto so that I can control Spotify via voice: https://youtu.be/WBUKw4801HE

But I can do that now using the voice commands on the v10 update. I know there's a guy who tinkers with the firmware code and found that the voice commands for temp and other settings are dormant on a previous update.

https://twitter.com/greentheonly/status/1112574502678994944

'Alexa, set the temprature to seventy degrees' (system hears 'sevde-gree' due to road noise)

"Okay Sizzle, switching to Centigrade temperature scale"

'No! Alexa, switch to Fahrenheit' (system hears 'far ride')

"Okay Sizzle, going into long-range mode" turns off AC, music, etc

Voice controls in a car sounds good in theory but horrible in practice. I remember someone showing me one of the older pre smart assistant systems, him having to shout 'call X' 3 times and in the end it called the work instead of personal number

Frankly, if you're willing to put a bug in your own car to get voice integration that's only semi-functional when you're connected to the internet, your value system is very different from mine. We can argue objective pros and cons but the real truth is we want very different things, and we're not likely to find much common ground.

Tesla is going the right way, the car is a driving smartphone and entertainment system. I can't see the next generation using anything else.

When you grow old and don't understand the future technology... Guess the future is now

Completely agree. I want old school dials with needles on a regular dash and zero screens anywhere in my car. I just want the propulsion of the car to be decoupled from burning fossil fuels. All the other dumb tech can go.

The fact that part of this update puts Netflix and Hulu in a car is one of the dumbest things I’ve heard.

Car companies figured out instrumentation a while ago, it’s not something that needed to be ‘disrupted’.

Most of the dumb stuff seems to come from designing a car that isn’t meant to be driven. @ Folks who don't want to drive your cars, the solution exists, it’s called public transit, and the reason it sucks is because of cars.

I felt the same way before I got my Model 3, however I find that I don't really notice the lack of analog controls. I think the virtual keyboard on a smartphone is a good analogy. A tactile, analog button is better but a touchscreen is good enough.

Bit of a bad look that the video clip showing Smart Summon shows the Tesla driving the wrong direction down a one-way lane...

This might be a situation where Tesla Smart Summon works only when Tesla's are still rare. In areas where they are more common, I imagine a traffic jam of confused driverless Teslas trying to move past each other but get stuck in a small lane like the one in the video.

> In areas where they are more common, I imagine a traffic jam of confused driverless Teslas trying to move past each other but get stuck in a small lane like the one in the video.

I wonder what kind of road rage this might induce.

It’s a parking lot, no right way.

Traffic rules don't just magically go away just because you enter a parking lot.

edit: the parent comment edited his comment to include "no right way", which I'd like to address: it is very common (at least in every America city I've ever been to) for parking lots to have lanes that are very clearly marked for only one-way travel. These lanes, like the one shown in the video, are typically only wide enough for one car, and if someone is going the wrong way down one, there's a good chance they'll cause a traffic jam if they encounter someone who is going the right way.

Sure, since it's in a parking lot you might not get a ticket from a police officer. But these rules and established traffic flows still exist for a reason, and if Smart Summon disregards them, it has the potential to cause some incredibly inconvenient situations for both the Tesla owner and anyone else involved.

Legally, they kind of do.

Try parking in a handicapped spot and see what happens; some laws clearly do apply in a parking lot.

If we are going to be pedantic about this, and you pretty much have to be given the topic, a parking violation is not considered a traffic violation. Obviously a private parking lot isn't some completely lawless place, but many (most?) traffic laws don't apply there.

> If we are going to be pedantic about this, and you pretty much have to be given the topic, a parking violation is not considered a traffic violation. Obviously a private parking lot isn't some completely lawless place, but many (most?) traffic laws don't apply there.

So you can drive like 50 mph or do donuts, violate crosswalks with pedestrians in them, etc? Does your jurisdiction have no laws on reckless driving, exhibition of motor, etc?

Sure the stop sign might not be the legal height required by your roadway authority but see if that stops a cop from citing you if you blow through it without observing traffic (aka drive recklessly).

Hell, I know people who have received seat belt tickets while operating a motor vehicle in a parking lot.

I don't know what to tell you. You are free to Google it and see that it is pretty universal that many traffic laws don't apply in private parking lots (it obviously depends on jurisdiction). That doesn't mean you can't be ticketed for driving recklessly or endangering/injuring people, it just means it is fundamentally legally different than driving on a freeway.

While the letter of many specific traffic laws may not be applicable, it does seem that the intent gets through, based on my googling of traffic law application in parking lots and structures.

When dealing with the law, it is the letter that matters. To repeat my first comment, it isn't like parking lots are lawless, but the it is a fundamentally different legal environment in which many traffic laws don't apply.

>Hell, I know people who have received seat belt tickets while operating a motor vehicle in a parking lot.

The cops can cite you for anything anywhere anytime. It's on you to call them out for bullshit.

Can you legally operate a motor vehicle while drunk on private property? People have gotten DUIs for being drunk and asleep with the car in their driveways.

I don't think it has to do with calling out bullshit. Though likely some laws are about operating a motor vehicle in general and others are around operation in a roadway.

Not true. Depending on the state, many laws still apply, including:

- Accessible Parking

- Unlicensed driving (for example, shared private spaces such as parking lots)

- Drunk driving

Some stay around. Others don't.

So your statement does not invalidate the original point.

My comment is based on my interpretation of the original point.

But I feel like you're pointlessly nitpicking, which is against the hn rules, so please read those.

No, the main thrust of the original point is that Tesla's actions may not be illegal, because some laws don't apply.

And my comment addresses that.

Instead, it would be nit picking to say "well, actually, some laws do apply, and since you said all laws accidentally, that makes you wrong!".

In reality, whatever actions the Tesla car in question did, might not be illegal because some laws might not apply.

The original point, that maybe the Tesla car didn't do anything illegal, could be true.

Might want to look into this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reckless_driving

If a Tesla car was driving around a parking lot in the wrong direction it definitely looks like some of those listed e.g. careless, reckless or improper driving would cover it.

So yes there is a good case to be made that it's illegal.

Realistically, if you drive the wrong way down a one lane road in a parking lot there's a good chance you're going to get stuck because someone else will be driving the right way. It's not... good?

Exactly. It's not so much a legal thing (note the use of "rules" vs "laws" in my earlier comment) as much as it is a practical thing. If you're a Tesla owner, it's not going to be a good experience if using Smart Summon results in your car getting stuck in a one-way lane. If you're the driver of a car that ends up face-to-face with a driverless Tesla that is going the wrong way, it's also going to be a bad experience. And if the Tesla does somehow get in a collision, I think you would have a hard time coming up with an excuse to your insurance company as to why your car was going against established traffic flow.

It probably gets legal when a collision happens.

Also, when one gets a person who drives the wrong way, maybe one has a good chance to make them reverse. Good luck with a car without a driver.

Criminally / infractionally maybe depending on jurisdiction. But on the civil side, I don’t know of a jurisdiction that requires no duty of care. For example, if you rear-end someone in a lot, you’re probably going to be liable.

Depends on jurisdiction. In my province, our Motor Vehicle Act defines all its regular road rules as rules of the “highway” and it treats publicly accessible parking lots as highways.

“"highway" includes ... every private place or passageway to which the public, for the purpose of the parking or servicing of vehicles, has access or is invited”

Ref: http://www.bclaws.ca/civix/document/id/complete/statreg/9631...

Maybe not under "criminal" law (a cop won't stop you for it), but certainly under civil law.

And if you ran over someone while ignoring signs even on private property (for example), it wouldn't help your criminal defense either.

In most places in the world they have a generic law used to cover behaviour that everyone knows is wrong but isn't explicitly illegal.

For example in Australia we have a 'reckless driving' law which would definitely cover the case of you ignoring parking lot rules. Likewise if you had an incident I doubt your insurance company would honor the claim.

You'll find that 99% of parking lots are legally private property, and as such road rules DO NOT legally apply.

Those stop signs IN a parking lot? They legally mean nothing. Police can not give you a ticket for not stopping.

The enforceability and enforcement of stop signs in parking lots varies state by state in the US.

In most states, any publicly accessable roadway is enforcable by highway codes. Google parking lot dui.

>if someone is going the wrong way down one, there's a good chance they'll cause a traffic jam if they encounter someone who is going the right way

True, but what if smart summon is smart enough to determine that it safe to go wrong way ?

I don't see how that would be universally possible. Take the video, for example: at the time of the video, the Tesla seems fine to continue the wrong direction down the lane. Maybe it's somehow "determined that it is safe" (even though I doubt it does that). But if one of those parked cars in front of the Tesla had pulled out and tried to leave, they would then be face-to-face and both would be stuck.

Even if I am a human driving the car, I can pretty easily look down the lane and see it is clear right now, but if I do decide to go down it, I'm pretty much just hoping that another driver doesn't show up and block me.

Of course nothing is perfect. I'm happy if it smart enough most of the time.

But at very least its not hard to imagine situation where its safe to drive on a wrong way in a parking lot. For example an empty parking lot.

Even when another car show up and block it, meh not a big deal, its unlikely that the car will hit the other car.

Looks like a lane w/ parking, not a parking lot.

I would like to see how a street full of all Teslas manage to avoid each other, or plow into each other. A sort of AI driven automotive musical chairs.

I love that completely perfect or catastrophic failure are both acceptable out comes AND the only acceptable outcomes for that scenario. If a couple cars clipped each other or there were a couple fender benders everyone would be like "this is bullsh*t!"

Owner of a Tesla model 3.

Summon is the canary in the coal mine. As in, unless it shows signs of life then the fairy tale of self driving cars is just that, a fairy tale. If they cannot get a safe an accurate summon to work why should I ever believe my car will ever drive on its own. Do I believe it will come, not for years. My car cannot even identify a speed limit sign, maybe version 10 will help on that. I doubt it, v10 is all about what it can do while parked.

I am so damn tired of them adding features for when I AM NOT DRIVING MY CAR. As in, I don't need Hulu or Netflix or such, this is all part of the disconnect at Tesla. They have sold even themselves that autonomous driving is RIGHT AROUND THE CORNER that they completely ignore improving quality of life features while driving, namely their blue tooth support for smart phones is poor, ten year old poor. It is illegal to use my phone physically while driving but if I want to change the play list my car is getting from my phone I have to resort to using my phone. This is a common feature on most cars today but Tesla never has had it. when pressed we get sycophants defending the decision because autonomous driving is coming "real" soon.

Even more laughable, they never delivered on promised voice commands. I can tell the car where to go but heaven help me if I want it to change radio stations or select a new play list from my phone. Even voice control for Slacker is nothing more than a glorified Siri look up a song and hope it gets the right one.

love my car but am not impressed much with their direction when it comes to adding features to the car. They almost got automatic wipers working consistently but automatic high beams is as spastic as a Jack Russel Terrier.

ps: when asked, would I buy the car again? No. I do not care for their direction in software; namely focusing on what it can do while I am not driving it. I want a car that responds to me and makes tasks easier, not one that focuses on stuff to do while parked and charging, if its charging I certainly am not going to sit around in it. I already have been sitting for three plus hours driving it likely

Well, I would hope the engineers working on Netflix and Caraoke aren't the ones who are working on self-driving features. They seem like different enough things that they could be worked on simultaneously. Full self-driving is a long time away anyway, and while we wait for that, features like this help cope with not having full self-driving and differentiating the car in the market.

But they are spending money and time on the engineers who are adding those features to the car, and on testing and integrating those with the rest of the software. Is that the best way to be spending their money?

Integrating that game was probably 'free', because I bet the game developer paid to have Tesla distribute their game as advertising. That's why you only get the first level.

Exactly. For example, it was announced during E3 that the the game developers (StudioMDHR) from Cuphead helped port it. Also: https://twitter.com/StudioMDHR/status/1177305158470029314

Since it opens up a whole new differentiation front, they'd be remiss not to. No one else has broad apps or consistent OTA updates.

I don’t agree with this. Software engineers are strong enough generalists that the people working on Cuphead could work on something actually useful.

I rented a model three for a week long trip, and while I understand some of your frustrations, a lot of them are not the norm from my experience.

Both speed limit sign detection, and self driving on the freeway worked flawlessly for me.

I guess YMMV.

A lot of them are the norm. These are the most common complaints amongst Tesla users and they’ve gone unaddressed for far too long.

I've been a Tesla owner since 2015 and I frequent pretty much all of the online forums and I will tell you that those are not the norms.

How did you come to this conclusion? I’m an owner, and frequent various forums, and have never had these complaints, and can not recall seeing them. That’s not to say that they don’t exist, but I question your assertions here.

Same here! I visit many Tesla related forums and subreddit pretty much daily and also do not typically see these so called "complaints".

They pop up once in a while but not to the extent many people (often times from people don't even own one) claim.

Teslas do not currently detect speed limit signs at all. They work off a database which gets updated from time to time.

Several streets near my home have had speed limits changed since I got my Tesla, and it sometimes takes months for the database to catch up.

There is no speed limit sign detection...

Also owner of a TM3.

Best car I've ever owned by a lot.

People sure do get mad about Blutooth.

Also, at least they're able to have a 'software direction'. Not aware of any other manufacturer who provides anywhere near this level of OTA upgrades.

And obviously the autopilot team is a different one than the people installing games. Chill.

Here is what I don't understand: you paid a small fortune for your car and if this was any other car from any other manufacturer you would react like your parent comment.

But because it is a Tesla you are dismissing all the issues and sell it as the best car ever. This wouldn't fly with any other car. If you spent 50k$ on a Audi with poor quality you would probably complain about it.

It is a pattern I see with nearly all the other TM3 owners that dismiss every single issue.

Really trying to understand but what is so different with a Tesla? Is it the Hype factor? The feeling to be in a religious group?

I’m not a Tesla owner but it does seem to me that buying in to the company that has single handedly changed the landscape of electric vehicles is a pretty exciting notion. I’d be happier to have a vehicle built on seemingly better principles and support the company even if they’re not perfect. But then I use Linux even though it’s difficult at times because what I am using is more important than any specific flaws it has.

It occurs to me that I would equate Mac to Tesla and Linux to a car in which you get full access to the engine and are able to change any piece you want.

Tesla is the opposite of Linux philosophy.

Well I agree if you mean “hackable open system”, but I meant it as “product which I agree with ideologically even if the specific user experience is sometimes inferior”.

After I got a Tesla I had a lot of fun writing javascript software for the big touchscreen. It was especially cool for hackathons. YMMV.

ALL cars sold today are the opposite of the linux philosophy

How?? You can service your own car unless you're looking at something ridiculous like a Bugatti or Mclaren. You can modify them to any legal extent.

> Tesla is the opposite of Linux philosophy.

It literally records and reports back to HQ. If you ever make any statement that Tesla doesn't like, they will use what should be your own data against you.

Surveillance capitalism. Ownership as a service.

They also restrict the repairability via software.

It's as far from gnu as its possible to be.

> It literally records and reports back to HQ. If you ever make any statement that Tesla doesn't like, they will use what should be your own data against you.

Wow. Take out the tinfoil hat Sir. I'll PayPal you $1000USD if you can cite this ridiculous claim.

> They also restrict the repairability via software.

You CAN perform repairs on them, you can even access the parts catalog (https://epc.teslamotors.com) for free when most manufacturers charge for this or even restrict it to dealers only. Need a part? Just call up a service center!

Many people have also refurbished Tesla battery packs and even rebuilt salvaged cars: https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/threads/my-first-model-3-reb...

>> It literally records and reports back to HQ. If you ever make any statement that Tesla doesn't like, they will use what should be your own data against you.

> Wow. Take out the tinfoil hat Sir. I'll PayPal you $1000USD if you can cite this ridiculous claim.

https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2017/apr/03/the-custo...

https://wheels.blogs.nytimes.com/2013/02/14/that-tesla-data-... about this ridiculously detailed releasing of data https://www.tesla.com/blog/most-peculiar-test-drive

https://electrek.co/2016/05/11/tesla-model-s-crashed-own-sum...

or Teslas own privacy policy, which says that they may remotely collect telematics data including speed, odmeter, battery charging, use of charging stations (linked to location), infotainment system data, camera images, short video clips, lock/unlock data, horn honking, etc. They also collect detailed position data in many cases, but say that they store it in a non identifiable way. While the policy doesn't specifically mention recording torque applied to the steering wheel, presumably they must include that somewhere, as they have announced to the press that the user didn't have their hands on the steering wheel. The policy also says that they "also may use information we collect for other purposes, including: For our business purposes", a vague and expansive definition. We've seen in the examples above what they consider this to include - disputing customers accounts of what happened if it makes Tesla look bad.

https://www.tesla.com/about/legal

I presume your offer of payment was hyperbole, but in my view, even if you disagree with the links I posted, I have certainly cited the claim. Email me@kybernetikos.com if you actually intend to back up your words.

The issue with your examples is that it's almost always an irresponsible customer claiming that the car came to life and "moved on its own" or "accelerated by itself". I'd take an official government report or a legal case where Tesla is found at fault or for privacy violations please.

These customers almost always sue, but thankfully the U.S. justice system favors factual information.

A prime example of this was the recently released NTSB data on the Model S driver that crashed on the back of a Firetruck. The media had a field day and sensationalized the story and the owner tried to blame autopilot.

But the NTSB report noted that not only did he had his hands off the wheel he was also having breakfast!:

“I was having a coffee and a bagel. And all I remember, that truck, and then I just saw the boom in my face and that was it,” the driver told NTSB investigators."

Source: https://www.culvercityobserver.com/story/2019/09/05/news/nts...

NTSB Safety Report: https://www.ntsb.gov/investigations/AccidentReports/Pages/HA...

The report states that probable cause was the Tesla driver’s lack of response and inattention and the driver’s use of the system in ways inconsistent with guidance and warnings from the manufacturer.

So tell me, how can Tesla defend itself from such customers who abuse and misuse these 2 ton machines? I'm curious on what you think is the best approach to solve this "he said/she said" problem by not using factual and irrefutable data.

Pretty sure there are regulations and just common sense preventing allowing people to hack and tinker with their car software, as that would be very dangerous both for the owners and for the public when such cars would be driving on public roads.

Nope, only epa registered emissions affecting stuff is verboten. But even that seems unenforced, as you can find ecu tuners and piggybacks everywhere. I have personally tuned my older cars to have better emissions, so its not only for racers and the environmentally unconcerned.

Tldr; I drive a fleet of hacked cars on the road daily. Its fine.

the big difference is that this 'Linux' is powered by gas.

It's not that complicated. Drive one and you will see that they are pretty different from any other car in a number of ways.

Why would you assume that if I drive one I would automatically like it?

I drove one for a couple days. It is a nice experience but a very early product that is far from perfect and the finish was what I would have expected for a cheap Toyota.

> Why would you assume that if I drive one I would automatically like it?

Because that seems to be the consensus among us owners who give test drives during Tesla meetups. Also add neighbors to the mix who ask about the cars.

I now referred 6 people this way. Not once in 34 years have I had given test drives in my previous (mostly german) cars or other people become curious enough to knock on my door.

Surely, there's something interesting going on here isn't there?

Well, after I drove one I liked it even less. But if some people enjoy paying Mercedes prices for Yugo quality, all the power to them. Although regularly driving into firetrucks costs us as taxpayers money. But then fleecing taxpayers is the major part of Tesla's marketing anyway.

This argument is tired. Many people drive teslas without being particularly impressed by anything but the torque. Its certainly not build quality.

The issues are relatively minor in the grand scheme of the user experience of the car. They're also easily dismissed because of the regular updates that Tesla puts out like this one (addressed complaints like Bluetooth and Spotify). People would be more frustrated with software issues from another car maker because it would mean waiting longer for a fix and going in to a dealership to get the update.

Do you own a Tesla? Do you feel that autopilot has improved?

And the nag / inability to sense the presence of hands on wheel... to put it mildly, I would pay a lot of money to revert my AP software.

Yeah so I don't care about the blutooth because my car DRIVES ITSELF a big percent of the time. it's fundamentally changed how I view driving. Stop and Go traffic no longer makes me mad. Road trips no longer exhaust me.

There's probably some issues but none that I care about. It feels like driving the future. It's an absolute joy to drive.

No gas stations is pretty nice too.

I'm driving a Toyota Corolla with lane assist which does 95% of what Tesla "Self Driving" does. It accelerates and brakes for me in traffic, and correct courses to stay in my lane. This is a 18k$ car and I would not accept trading Bluetooth issues with fancy parking summon features.

Having driven a car with Toyota's smart driving features... I view them as a negative. Cruise control keeps me too far back from whatever vehicle is in front of me. Dealbreaker with no clear way to disable. I'll stick with my 7 year old Yaris (which also has shitty Bluetooth)

I rented one once, you can adjust the follow distance for the adaptive cruise control. Annoyingly it resets each time you turn on the car though.

In my experience, none of them are a reasonable distance back. If it gave an audible chime first or something, it would be fine.

How far back is that? I generally try to leave at least 10 car-lengths in fast traffic, 3-5 in heavy traffic.

I leave quite a reasonable distance. The issue to me is it slows down before that with no cue, so I occasionally look down to find i'm somehow going 20km under the speed limit, a hundred meters behind whatever is in front of me.

That's called a SAFE FOLLOWING DISTANCE.

> That's called a SAFE FOLLOWING DISTANCE.

Hi. Safe following distance is the distance required to safely stop at whatever speed you are going. At a typical speed of 90km/hr (that's usually when this "feature" gets engaged - slowing me to 10km/hr under the limit because that's what someone in front of me is doing), the safe stopping distance is around 80-90 meters (perception+braking in good conditions). The shortest follow distance setting I seemed able to find was around double this distance.

tl;dr: I do not find that the adaptive cruise control is engaged at a safe following distance. Indeed, I think it makes me less safe as a driver, because it slows me down arbitrarily without any visual or auditory notification.

The LONGEST following distance maintained by Toyota's adaptive cruise control is 50m (at 80 km/h). The short and medium settings are 30m and 40m.

So either (a) the car you drove was defective or (b) you are radically misjudging your following distance. I know you are inclined to assume the former, but keep in mind that humans are terrible at judging distances when moving at high speeds, and most people leave way too little space between them and the car in front of them.

I make a habit of counting seconds between cars (particularly in light traffic, which is also the only time I'm using cruise control), aiming for the standard 5s follow. At 90km/hr (25m/s), you're telling me Toyota's cruise control has a maximum follow distance of 2 seconds? That is incorrect from my experience (and unsafe from standard driving practice). Where did you get that number?

I looked it up in the owners manual for the Toyota Corolla available online.

(While I haven't driven a Toyota Corolla with adaptive cruise control, I have driven a Subaru Forester, which uses roughly the same following distance; I find it to be a little closer than I'd prefer on my own, but accept it for the convenience and because I assume it can get away with a shorter following distance, since it is not reliant on human reflexes to stop in an emergency.)

You are not going to get to your destination faster by staying closer to the car in front of you. You'll still be restricted to 90 minus 10 km/h.

Not that this is even a problem in the fist place, I've used dozens of cars with ACC, no Toyota in particular though, and all of them allow adjusting within almost armreach close to a long 5sec gap. Put closer distance in heavy traffic to prevent lane jumping in front of you and 5 sec for comfortable highway cruising.

Most of my cruise control driving is on very low traffic volume divided highways. With regular cruise control, if the distance to a car gets smaller, I know there is a speed differential and I can slow down or pass, as appropriate. With the adaptive cruise control, the system as decided for me that slowing down is the correct option, generally before I've gotten close to where I would normally pull out to pass. With the long follow distance and the very gentle deceleration, I generally don't realize the system has slowed me down. This would be good as long as slowing down is the decision I want, but my cruise is generally set at the speed limit and I'm slowed by someone driving slower when the conditions don't warrant.

That's cool man. I hope you enjoy your Toyota Corolla and I hope one day you can be happy for people who also enjoy their cars.

Does it steer and lane center in general, besides when you drift out of lane?

Current cars that have lane centering and steering at all speeds:

* All Acura models

* All Audi models

* BMW 5/6/7/X3/X4

* Cadillac CT6

* Ford Edge

* All Honda models (mostly at higher speed)

* ... and so on.

Source: https://www.cars.com/articles/which-cars-have-self-driving-f...

This notion, particularly among Tesla owners, that active lane centering and steering is a Tesla exclusive, is at times wilfully blindered, to the obnoxious.

The last time I went through this was with a Tesla owner who swore that every other car's Blind Spot monitoring sucked, because "only Tesla paid attention to the speed of the car in the blind spot", which is... false. Even my 2015 A4 had adaptive blind spot monitoring.

Most to all mid to high end vehicles have all this stuff. Tesla isn't miraculous in automotive technology. Which isn't to say they haven't done great things. But even reading this list... ugh. Was the ability to watch Netflix or sing "Car-aoke" the most demanded of new features for Tesla owners?

> This notion, particularly among Tesla owners, that active lane centering and steering is a Tesla exclusive, is at times wilfully blindered, to the obnoxious.

Autopilot is more than just "active lane centering and steering" (known as LKAS) Autopilot is a combination of a lot of things (TACC + Autosteer + Auto Lane Change + Auto Lane Keep + NOA etc...)

Autosteer is also way ahead of everything else out there right now. The competition is mainly just TACC and basic LKAS.

For example, I am yet to see so other cars perform in conditions like this:

https://www.reddit.com/r/teslamotors/comments/d32eo3/autopil...

> Most to all mid to high end vehicles have all this stuff

Yeah mostly an extra option and costs $$$. Basic autopilot and a ton of safety features are FREE on Tesla. It's actually pathetic how other car manufacturers charge for advanced safety features.

> Autopilot is more then just "active lane centering and steering" (known as LKAS) Autopilot is a combination of a lot of things (TACC + Autosteer + Auto Lane Change + Auto Lane Keep + NOA etc...)

Yes, it is. The parent just made a dismissive, " Does it steer and lane center in general, besides when you drift out of lane?", implying that other cars don't.

Other cars also have other features beyond LKAS, too. That's just the focus of this article.

> For example, I am yet to see so other cars perform in conditions like this:

"Removed because there's no way to verify it was actually autopilot performing the maneuver. We are going to make a rule where future dashcam autopilot vids will be removed."

> Yeah mostly an extra option and costs $$$. Basic autopilot and a ton of safety features are FREE on Tesla.

And basic intelligent services and safety are free/standard on most new cars too. While advanced features might cost money, so too does advanced autopilot on a Tesla too, so let's not act like there's that much of a difference. What are some of these "basic safety features" that are free on a Tesla that "other manufacturers [pathetically] charge for"?

Just to follow up on the reddit post, the author of the post submitted another one with an additional video with more angles.

https://www.reddit.com/r/teslamotors/comments/d3yx03/round_2...

Thanks! No other car that you can buy right now can do that. I will eat my words if proven otherwise.

as far as I know, when I got my M3, auto lane change was not part of autopilot but has been moved to the full self driving package.

Acura LKAS ≠ autosteer. LKAS turns itself off after 15-45 secs.

The question was genuine, not dismissive, as I haven't heard of many autosteer systems in production cars. There are a handful AFAIK.

Is this the system you’re talking about? [1]

If so, it’s constantly disengaging to the point it seems unusable. This is not anywhere remotely 95% of what AutoPilot does.

Look at Autonomous Day presentations on things like cut-in detection and lane changes. Look at what the active accident avoidance technology accomplishes in the real world. The Toyota system is not even trying to do any of that.

[1] - https://youtu.be/5QNw1n5JLLw

> Yeah so I don't care about the blutooth because my car DRIVES ITSELF a big percent of the time.

See, this worries me. Almost all of the Model 3 owners I know tell me that not supporting bluetooth features isn't a big deal because they can safely use their phone while driving. This is completely false. When I last drove in a friend's Model 3 he had to make several manual corrections while using auto pilot on California highways; it's still not good enough for people to be messing with their phone while driving.

Please, don't use your phone while driving.

I don’t think that was the implication. It’s that Tesla is focused on hitting the high order bits and so has earned a little forgiveness about smaller things.

But they aren't. The car doesn't drive itself yet and you shouldn't pretend it does unless you want to die.

Other than performance and range they haven't hit on ANY of the high order bits.

Haha well, maybe your car doesn't drive itself. Mine does everyday, it's great.

Also Teslas are the safest cars. Not sure what you're talking about

I don't believe you. I own an AP1 Tesla as well as a nominally "FSD computer equipped" AP2 Tesla.

You would be injured or killed if you tried taking an unmonitored trip of any reasonable length - ON THE HIGHWAY - in either, with autopilot on and with the nag disabled using a weight. If you think you don't have to routinely make manual corrections to save yourself from dying I think you are either lying or delusional.

You're stretching quite a bit here...None of the things you said were implied by the previous poster.

> If you think you don't have to routinely make manual corrections to save yourself from dying I think you are either lying or delusional.

What makes you think owners are not aware of this? Try asking that question on the /r/rteslamotors subreddit and you'll see that owners will quickly educate you and tell you to keep your eyes on the road.

You also get a visual warning to do so, whenever you engage Autopilot.

Stretching what, exactly?

They said their car drives itself every day. "Drives itself" means that the car does all of the work of driving without requiring human intervention or involvement. And that technology, of course, does not exist in any car at the moment.

What else could "drives itself" possibly mean?

> Also Teslas are the safest cars. Not sure what you're talking about

In other words being on your phone isn't a big deal because you'll be safe. But those other people you might hit? What about them? Do you have any care in that direction?

A lot of cars offer that nowadays, although it may be an optional upgrade. My VW van has ACC, lane assist, emergency breaking, warns you if it's not safe to change lanes by flashlight and steering wheel, even if the other car is 40+ meters away but approaching fast, automatic parking, automatic breaking when there is an obstacle or side traffic when parking. It's also a joy on long road trips and I can easily go double the distance than in my previous Audi before getting tired.

That said, I would probably trade it in for a Model S 7-seater if it did cost the same here :)

Especially the "3" owners. There are so many cut-corners on the "3" yet the owners of this budget car will explain away it all.

The powertrain is more powerful and more efficient than any other in its class. A lot of people don't care about paint or trivial fit 'n finish stuff.

Different people care about different things. If Tesla gets 0% of the "we care most about fit and finish" market, that's fine at Tesla's current market share.

Tesla's clearly an internals/advance core tech co vs. a design/polish co., because of Elon's personality (like most entrepreneurs), and so still attracts earlier adopters.

You can get a Chevy Bolt with perfect fit and finish!

100% of Tesla 3 owners would get an "S" if only they could afford it.

S is a different body size entirely, and Model 3 has some more advanced tech (e.g. more power-efficient) until S refreshed. 3 is actually cannibalizing S sales.

Perhaps I'm missing something, but how does anyone know that it's "cannibalizing" S sales rather than just "S sales are down?"

I had an S and traded it in for a Model 3. I ended up liking the Model 3 more since it's much more nimble and gets the latest software updates. The S was nice, but felt like I'm driving a boat.

Teslas are the first software-centric EV, with the most advanced autopilot. No one is even really trying.

>But because it is a Tesla you are dismissing all the issues and sell it as the best car ever. This wouldn't fly with any other car. If you spent 50k$ on a Audi with poor quality you would probably complain about it.

Nobody wants to look like they pissed their money away so popular expensive stuff gets the benefit of the doubt whether it deserves it or not. For example:

When your Tesla has a shitty interface it's your fault for being too dumb to use it right. When your BMW makes you go through one too many menus to change the GPS routing preferences it's the Germans over-complicating things.

When your S10 snaps in half it's a piece of shit. When your Tacoma snaps in half it's the government's fault for salting the road

When you break a Harbor Freight wrench the wrench sucks. When you break a Snap On you were abusing it.

When the server misunderstands what you said at a 5-star restaurant its your fault for not being clear. When the server at the burger joint does it they're an idiot.

When something is spilled at Whole Foods they haven't cleaned it up yet. When something is spilled at Walmart it's because the store is a dump.

When someone breaks into your car in SF it's because they need to feed their family. When someone's breaks into your car in Buffalo it's because Buffalo is too dysfunctional to control crime.

I'm generalizing a bit here with these examples but you get the point.

TM3 owner here. I agree completely that there is a level of hype around Tesla akin to Apple, and along with that comes a polarized audience. I can't change your mind, but I'll provide my anecdotal experience. In our objective search of fully electric vehicles, the model 3 stood alone for us on the 3 most important things in our case, with awd, 310 miles of range, and a mature fast-charging network. On top of that, in our experience, the fit, finish, tight acceleration/deceleration, low center of gravity and polar moment of inertia, and pure joy of driving make it the best car we've owned, EV or not. In our opinion it beats out not only EVs but all cars in the 50k price range.

Add to the above the following positives, and you can get an idea why model 3 owners might be ok dealing with a few negatives.

self driving features, ota updates, top safety ratings, pre-cool/heat interior (and now defrost with v10) from app, regenerative braking for one pedal driving, brake pads last longer, low maint costs, lowering overall tco

I've been a Tesla owner for 5 years - currently have a P85+ (mine), M3 (wife) and Mercedes GL (family car). Prior to this owned 2 Fords, and 2 Hondas before that. For me personally, I'll take the Tesla any day over any other brand, and my non-techy wife is the same. Hard to explain, but I think it's the overall ownership and driving experience including:

- Buying experience is so much more pleasant - set price and no pressure

- Service experience has been great - much better than Ford or Mercedes. Mercedes is good, but every time we take it in they want a small fortune for this or that - you really get the sense that it's a profit center, whereas Tesla is not like this

- No more gas stations - full charge every day, and superchargers make trips and range anxiety a non-issue (owned a Ford EV previously and it sucked in this regard), and overall electricity costs are much lower than gas

- We both love the user interface - as easy and intuitive as an iPad. I don't miss the buttons, and it's so much easier to use than the Mercedes or Ford infotainment systems - and integrated connectivity and OTA updates are superior to those systems as well.

- Fast and fun to drive - handles well

- Lots of room for trips - frunk, trunk, rear facing seats - the P85+ is a great family car - we've done road trips with 4 kids, dog and luggage no problem

- I like the styling - P85+ with chrome delete and 21s looks really great

- Less environmental impact - I support Tesla's mission and enjoy doing a small part to combat global warming and advance EV adoption

- I enjoy the gimmicky stuff - games, whoopee cushion

- Much less maintenance (except for the darn 21" tires), no oil changes, and over the lifespan of the car I believe maintenance costs will be much lower

I will say that build quality is subpar - the Mercedes is notably better in this regard - very nice. Additionally, I don't trust autopilot for anything but long road trips (it's excellent for that), it's tried to kill me too many times - I think the marketing hype is way ahead of actual capabilities.

> I don't trust autopilot for anything but long road trips (it's excellent for that), it's tried to kill me too many times - I think the marketing hype is way ahead of actual capabilities.

What about in heavy traffic situations? Is autopilot practical for that? I tried to get the driver assistant package (adaptive cruise and lane keeping) for my bmw x4 3 years ago. It was being marketed as good for stop & go situations. But when I talked to the rep, he strongly recommended against it, saying the tech is all right but most drivers would not bother using it. I guess the same can be said about auto parking.

Tesla AutoPilot is absolutely fantastic in heavy highway traffic.

It’s the difference between stress and elevated heart rate from the stop and go, versus literally peace and relaxation, while you car avoids all the ridiculous crap that goes on around you while everyone else is on their damn phones.

You look out the window and watch the cars around you driving like absolute garbage, and Tesla keeps you in lane and following appropriately behind the car in front.

It’s about 500ms slow to start from a stop, IMO, once the lead car starts moving. I’ve heard from early access v10 drivers that it’s quicker to start moving again in the latest version. I’ll wait to see that for myself, as placebo effect can be strong.

It’s a weird phenomenon. I’m getting home at exactly the same speed, but because I’m not actuating the accelerator, brakes, or steering and just monitoring the higher order situation, suddenly the traffic just doesn’t fucking matter once AutoPilot is turned on.

With more time to focus on the alertness and driving patterns of the people around you (instead of lanekeeping) you do notice just awful, awful driving practices of everyone around you.

The two scenarios AP is great for us stop and go traffic and long road trips with sparse traffic. It takes the edge off the stress and monotony of those situations. Where it is not good is around town and fast moving but congested traffic - in my experience you have to babysit it a lot in those scenarios.

Is the P85 a Model S? How on earth do you fit 4 kids and a dog in there? We have 4 kids and a dog too and the rear facing seats made us wait for the X (but it cost too much) and now I’m a Y reservation holder

P85+ is rear motor only, so it has a much larger frunk than the current dual motor MS. Also, I've had it for 5 years with small kids in the beginning. Now kids are bigger so the rear facing seats don't work as well.

> Really trying to understand but what is so different with a Tesla? Is it the Hype factor? The feeling to be in a religious group?

If you are really trying to understand, why don't you test drive one? Only then will you truly know. Having owned a Model S (traded it in for a Model 3) and X.

There is no way I will buy any other car. Maybe if MB, BMW or Audi leapfrogs Tesla in both charging infrastructure and software features. But frankly with the velocity of how quickly Tesla releases new features for FREE, I'm not holding my breath.

I DID and I still don't understand. It's especially obnoxious from Tesla owner to think that if we try it we will automatically think alike.

Then you don't like it? Cool! It's not the end of the world I promise. You can still buy whatever car you want.

Why don't you let people buy what they please with their hard earned money?

That's nothing like what they said. They are not telling people what to buy. They are trying to understand the willingness of many Tesla owners to brush off being misled and ignored by the manufacturer of their car, and to do things like you just did.

I own a P100D and the magic wore off for me. Apparently it hasn't for you.

Peace.

> Tesla owners to brush off being misled and ignored by the manufacturer of their car

Huh? how so, can you provide examples?

> I own a P100D and the magic wore off for me. Apparently it hasn't for you.

It certainly hasn't, to the point that we got rid all of our gas vehicles for a 3/X (Owned an S since 2015). Also, four of our neighbors also randomly rang our doorbell in the last 6 months asking about the cars. An underrated feature of these cars is safety, I can't put a price on that.

I showed them the features, gave them test drives and told them my honest opinion and experience. A few weeks later, they all ended up buying one.

> Maybe if MB, BMW or Audi leapfrogs Tesla in both charging infrastructure

I think this is the wrong perspective. Daimler, BMW, Volkswagen, and others are investing in common charging infrastructure through joint ventures such as Ionity (https://ionity.eu/en/about.html). Ionity is available to all EVs that can charge via CCS (which includes Teslas).

ICE cars can be fueled at any fuel station regardless of their make and model. EVs should also be able to charge at any charging station regardless of the brand.

Tesla says its mission is to "accelerate the advent of sustainable transport". If that's true then when will Tesla convert their fast chargers to CCS and allow all EVs to charge at them?

If you're not aware, Tesla since the beginning has offered other legacy auto manufacturers unfettered access to the supercharger network if they agree to shoulder the cost. Not a SINGLE one took them up on the offer!

https://www.cnet.com/roadshow/news/tesla-elon-musk-open-supe...

No one else will adopt Tesla's standard. You're avoiding the question rather than answering it.

CCS charging providers allow Teslas to charge on their networks today. When will Tesla reciprocate and convert to CCS?

Take a step back and listen to yourself.

> No one else will adopt Tesla's standard.

Why won't they? They don't have to pay any licensing fees and would save $$ on R&D.

> CCS charging providers allow Teslas to charge on their networks today.

Because Tesla have chosen to adapt it or at least provide Tesla owners an adaptor for CCS/ChadeMo. Why can't others do the same for the SuperCharger network? Give me a good reason why.

> When will Tesla reciprocate and convert to CCS?

Let me just phone a Tesla VP and ask. /s Are you seriously asking this?

> Why won't they?

Because they've standardized on CCS. Tesla tried to set a standard and it failed. It's time to switch to the standard.

The European Tesla Model 3 comes with a CCS type 2 combo port, so there's no technical impediment to implementing CCS.

> Why can't others do the same for the SuperCharger network?

More adapters we don't need. Everyone else is CCS, why isn't Tesla? Why should everyone manufacture and carry around adapters when it's much easier for Tesla to just switch its superchargers to CCS.

> Are you seriously asking this?

Yes. If Tesla genuinely wants to "accelerate the advent of sustainable transport" then it's time to get onboard with a common charging standard.

> More adapters we don't need. Everyone else is CCS, why isn't Tesla? Why should everyone manufacture and carry around adapters when it's much easier for Tesla to just switch its superchargers to CCS.

In EU maybe. Tesla Superchargers are more prevalent in the North America. The real reason nobody wanted to adopt the Tesla network is because CCS is a standard created by competitors (Audi, BMW, Daimler, Ford, General Motors, Porsche and Volkswagen) its bad optics for them if they do.

Also, have you experienced charging on a Tesla Supercharger compared to CCS stations? It's a night and day difference... No sane person would choose CCS:

Tesla: I just tap my charge port to open it and plug the connector. DONE. My credit card that's linked to my account is billed.

CCS: Take out my wallet, use a card or RFID, decipher the menu, press some buttons and only then can I start charging.

If you need instructions like the picture below, you already failed in usability:

https://www.mynrma.com.au/-/media/electric-cars/details.png

> CCS is a standard created by competitors (Audi, BMW, Daimler, Ford, General Motors, Porsche and Volkswagen)

Add Hyundai to the list: https://www.cnet.com/roadshow/news/hyundai-kia-ionity-electr...

The reasons for CCS are irrelevant. The practical reality is CCS is the standard now. It's time for Tesla to get in the boat and row.

> Tesla: I just tap my charge port to open it and plug the connector. DONE. My credit card that's linked to my account is billed.

The Mercedes Me account works the same way across CCS charging networks for the Mercedes EQC.

Electrify America, ChargePoint, and EVgo have roaming agreements to allow the one account to be billed across all networks: https://www.cnet.com/roadshow/news/evgo-electrify-america-ch...

When will Tesla start being a team player?

All manufacturers should converge, and the most common standard now is CCS so logically and practically that's what should be used.

It's fine for Tesla's to use adapters, but it would be better to just accept the reality that the timing didn't work out and join the group rather than waiting for the group to change (which at this point won't ever happen).

The Model 3 in Europe uses CCS and many (perhaps most) of the stations here in Norway already have CCS connectors.

Yes. All we need now is the timetable for Tesla opening their network to all EVs that can charge via CCS.

Unlikely because tesla wants to... they are forced to by gov. Kind of like the EU had to force phone manufacturers to switch to USB. Except tesla still seems to be resisting against the somewhat painful switch.

This is the same strawman as Apple with the open "Thunderbolt" specs.

They open it up and hope other people will adopt it with the goal of profiting Apple that still controls the specs.

In addition they can also claim that other players are bad players because they didn't use the "open" specs.

That's not how it should work. Other EV makers are doing this correctly with an open consortium. A single brand (Tesla) shouldn't dictate what standards to use.

The thing is, the Tesla charging standard predates CCS. Tesla has already deployed and invested on many supercharger stations. The CCS consortium instead of adopting it, instead got together and developed CCS.

The CCS consortium (composed of mainly GM and german manufacturers) is also not without fault... They completely ignored the already established CHAdeMO standard, because it's developed by five major Japanese automakers. But it seems that Tesla gets all the flak, when the reality is the whole industry do not wan't to hash it out.

> The thing is, the Tesla charging standard predates CCS.

Yes. Tesla tried to set a standard and they failed. The industry did not adopt it. It's time to move on to CCS.

> Tesla has already deployed and invested on many supercharger stations.

That's not an issue. Tesla doesn't need to start from zero. They can retrofit the chargers for CCS without too much trouble.

> That's not an issue.

Care to elaborate?

> They can retrofit the chargers for CCS without too much trouble.

Do you have experience running a business? That's easy for someone watching from the sidelines to say. But the reality is that something like this have financial and logistical hurdles.

As of Sept this year, there are currently 14,081 individual Supercharger stalls at 1,604 locations worldwide.

Retrofitting all of those is hardly "without too much trouble". That's a fact.

> Retrofitting all of those is hardly "without too much trouble". That's a fact.

No, the fact is they've already done exactly that in Europe: https://www.teslarati.com/tesla-supercharger-dual-charge-ccs...

But Tesla is still not allowing other EVs to charge at their chargers.

Tesla only needs to do three things to move to CCS properly: 1. Put a CCS plug on the charger. 2. Implement the CCS protocol. 3. Allow all EVs to charge at the charger.

Easy peasy and civic-minded. There are no downsides here.

I think it is enough like a phone or tablet, that people make the leap and expect things to evolve and be fixed with the same rapidity.

And they probably would if the sales volumes and customer upgrade timeframes were anywhere NEAR what they were for phones and tablets.

Perhaps I am not the target for your frustration. But I just like how it drives and its minimal interior. I like that I don't need to go to a gas station every week. And I actually like the touch screen. Everything else is just a nice to have for me.

Maybe you can give me examples of other cheaper cars that might have some of the same things I like. But I am pretty happy with my purchase. Do I think I am in some kind of religious group? I don't think so, but may be I am wrong.

This all feels like reactions I hear when I tell tech bros that I like Apple products. It just feels like people take this shit really seriously.

I disagree wholeheartedly but I am, admittedly, also an owner of a Tesla. The thing is that it's not like any other car from any other manufacturer and it's, by a good multitude of miles, the best car I've ever owned. There's nothing, to me, that's "poor quality" about it and people complaining that they don't like features that were added after they purchased the car because those particular features don't apply to them or get them excited is kinda ridiculous. I've never had a car that ever added features that I didn't have on purchase. My Teslas didn't have dashcams when I bought them. Now, they not only have a dashcam but 2 side cams and, starting next week, a rear cam that automatically record while I'm driving and while I'm parked and away from my car.

It's really not that we're dismissing issues. I think it's just that these cars get so much right and just have a different philosophy about how cars should work that the little things that annoy people tend to stick out for them a lot.

I have driven lots of luxury cars, owned BMWs, and am a pretty big technophile. There is not a question in my mind that the Teslas are the best cars I've ever owned or had to pleasure of driving. It sounds like the parent that you're claiming we'd be like if it was any other car is upset about the car he was hoping he'd eventually get as opposed to the car he actually got. I don't think any other car, regardless of price, ever gets any better or changes after you buy it. That alone makes the statement a little ridiculous, in my mind.

> what is so different with a Tesla?

Right now, in the UK, the Tesla Model 3 is the only option that (i) is 100% electric, (ii) can go from e.g. London to Edinburgh with one charge stop, and (iii) can fit in a standard UK size garage. There are simply no other cars available in the UK at the moment that meet these 3 basic requirements. There are others coming close, e.g. the Jaguar iPace, and some due soon that might meet them fully, e.g. the Volkswagen ID.3 due next year, but right now if these are your requirements you have no other choice. That makes it pretty different, in fact unique. To use the Apple analogy, it would be like if the iPhone was the only smartphone that could last a day without recharging and fit in your pocket, so if you had one (and also believed that one day everyone with feature phones would replace them with smartphones that could fit in your pocket) then that might make you feel ahead of the curve, and you might even be more forgiving if basic functionality like copy and paste wasn't yet available.

Right, because those vendors were smart enough to add support for Android auto and carplay and leave it to Google and apple.

I have a model y on order, but if they can't figure out infotainment soon I'll likely cancel it. I spend way too much time driving to deal with garbage infotainment.

I wonder if they can just run CarPlay/Android Auto in a VM and display it on 1/2 the screen?

Both of those already are VMs, running on QNX hypervisor. It should be pretty trivial for them to add it if they chose to.

And those other cars also have postage stamp sized displays that don't let you watch Netflix nor Hulu nor live tv. Nor do they allow steering wheel integration to racing games.

Since I spend exactly 0 hours a day sitting in my car doing nothing, Netflix an Hulu aren't on my list of useful features.

If for some reason I'm not driving and I'm still sitting in the car, I'm probably on a conference call.

They're pushing these because they need you to feel like you're covered during recharging time on longer trips.

Everyone's current phone is most likely the greatest phone they ever owned. It doesn't mean it's prefect and doesn't have plenty to complain about.

Never drove the car. But I must say it's funny bordering on tragicomic when they mention use cases for the Summon as e.g. "when dealing with a fussy child", then go on to say in the very next sentence

"Those using Smart Summon must remain responsible for the car and monitor it and its surroundings at all times."

Sure, when I'm dealing with a fussy kid in a parking lot, I can monitor the car over there and its surroundings at all times. That's what I usually do, forget about watching the kid.

This update is about more than just improvements while parked and it at least partially addresses two of your complaints. Spotify integration has been added so you can manage that from the screen instead of your phone. Voice commands have supposedly been improved, but obviously it remains to be seen exactly how effective that will be.

Owner of a 2015 AP1 Tesla Model S.

> My car cannot even identify a speed limit sign

My Model S can and it has AP1. It's very good at this. Has it ever made a mistake. Not that I'm aware and I've checked a lot. I'll see a speed limit sign and as I pass it, the speed limit sign on the drivers console will update.

AP is not capable of identifying speed limit signs. At least, modern AP cannot. To identify speed limits, Tesla AP pulls map information, which is often inaccurate outside cities.

Apparently identifying speed limit signs is AP1-only, because it relied on Mobileye's technology to do that and Tesla still haven't implemented their own replacement for that feature yet.

> Apparently identifying speed limit signs is AP1-only, because it relied on Mobileye's technology to do that and Tesla still haven't implemented their own replacement for that feature yet.

It's more of Tesla can't because because MobileEye owns the patent:

https://patents.google.com/patent/US20080137908A1/en

My Honda Civic has speed limit sign recognition. And it is possible to set cruise-control to limit the speed accordingly. Or are we talking about something more complicated?

Your Honda Civic has it because they licensed the tech from MobileEye in 2014.

Tesla AP1 cars also have it, but when Tesla dropped MobileEye in favor of their own system, they can't use it anymore.

That patent only seems to cover using the same camera for both sign recognition and forward collision detection by switching between two different sets of image capture parameters and then dividing the frames captured between the two different algorithms. It's not a general patent on sign recognition. Tesla have enough cameras on their current cars, and camera technology has improved by enough over the years, that I can't imagine that being necessary.

> That patent only seems to cover using the same camera for both sign recognition

That is THE meat and potatoes of the patent. Sign recognition. i.e. speed limit signs. I'm not a patent lawyer so I will not pretend to know enough of the scope.

Do you own a Tesla?

AP1 vs AP2 vs AP2.5 in the Tesla refers to image processing hardware and software.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tesla_Autopilot#Hardware_1

The AP1 includes forward looking radar by Bosch, ultrasonic detectors and a forward facing Mobileye EyeQ3 camera at the rear view mirror mount. That camera does many things including rain detection. It also detects speed limit signs.

https://www.mobileye.com/uk/fleets/technology/speed-limit-in...

Well I got mine this summer, I didn't get the full self driving package and my car certainly doesn't see speed limit signs its very obvious they come from map data. It actually makes using AP in town a bit useless because they changed a lot of at the limits but somehow the map data is not up to date.

AP1 generally works fine - recognizing signs and changing correctly just as I pass them.

Except for once in a while.

I wouldn't generally notice except my "over speed limit" chime (set to +10) will go off sometimes. I look down and see that it thinks the speed limit is 50, even though I'm on the freeway and the limit is 65. It thinks I'm going 15 over.

This is puzzling because there's no physical 50 mph sign and even if it misrecognized a truck sign, that would say 55. (trucks, towing speed limit 55 sign)

Maybe there's a speed limit override in the nav system?

Tesla is the only major autonomous vehicle manufacturer which does not use lidar for perception/localization. As such, they are substantially behind the rest of the AV industry when it comes to these areas.

This view about the inevitability of LIDAR seems to become increasingly anachronistic as time goes on. I have autopilot. Two nights ago it drove me from the entrance ramp to the exit ramp for my destination, approximately 30 miles, and I didn’t have to intervene once. The route involved three different highways, two overpasses, requisite lane changes, and even a brief stint through a traffic jam where it had to merge in heavy traffic. It was completely successful.

I fail to see how that is by any definition “behind”. I would be happy to replicate this and video it if you are skeptical.

Everyone agrees that you can do 99.99% of the driving without a LIDAR. That's exactly what you did yesterday in easy conditions (Highway driving is the easiest environment by far). The issue if you want to go to FULL self driving is that you need to go to 99.99999% of reliability which a lot of experts agree you will not be able to do without Lidar.

Here is the issue: Video cameras will work properly most of the time but once in a while the exact distance will be wrongly calculated as can be seen with all the Teslas crashing in trucks lately. A LIDAR gives you a way higher confidence on the distance of objects.

Which arguable, and regardless is not the point under discussion. GP claimed that Tesla is behind. This is factually untrue.

LIDAR gives you precision distance measurements. But LIDAR helps you little, if anything, with object classification. And object classification, the understanding what the car sees, is the big challenge with self driving.

Yes, with semi-intelligent systems it gives a head-start, as you can reasonably easy detect obstacles, but it does not help in understanding how to react to the detected obstacles.

So I would consider LIDAR rather a system which at the current state of development helps with collision avoidance rather than with true self-driving.

You make good points. I just bought a Model S and the autopilot needs A LOT of work. By focusing on adding Netflix and more games, it makes it seem like Tesla does not care as much about autopilot (besides Summon).

If manufacturers were to listen to this type of opinion, autonomous vehicles would never happen. You presume to know more about Tesla's capabilities than Tesla do. Their track record is one of proving critics wrong. Not always perfectly on time, by their own admission. If you look at everything they've done so far I think it's foolish to presume they won't be delivering on FSD.

So what would you rather buy?

> namely their blue tooth support for smart phones is poor, ten year old poor. It is illegal to use my phone physically while driving but if I want to change the play list my car is getting from my phone I have to resort to using my phone. This is a common feature on most cars today but Tesla never has had it. when pressed we get sycophants defending the decision because autonomous driving is coming "real" soon.

This is perhaps not the best example to use in this thread as V10 apparently includes this...

> My car cannot even identify a speed limit sign

They still haven't fixed that?

Works almost perfectly in my 2015 Model S with version 1 autopilot.

> My car cannot even identify a speed limit sign.

Does it pick up any speed limit signs? I have a newer Corolla and the camera in that car will pick up speed limit signs. It's detection wouldn't be good enough for autopilot, but it is helpful.

Haven't they added some notable features for when you're charging your car, though? I rarely charge outside my garage, but the times I have used a Supercharger, there sure are a lot of people just sitting in their cars reading something on a tiny screen. I think this update is targeted towards them. Heck, the sound is so good IMHO that it might be the best place to watch certain movies, especially when the kids are trying to sleep!

ps: You have some pretty high standards for driver-assist technology. What did you drive before and what would you get if you had to choose today?

The rumor is that there is a patent for speed sign recognition that Tesla refuses to pay money for.

Elsewhere in this discussion:

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21087492

How did MobilEye manage to patent reading speed signs? Firstly, computers reading a number has plenty of prior art, and secondly, how can one company be allowed to have a monopoly on important public safety announcements?

Look carefully, it isn't going the wrong way: https://www.google.com/maps/place/Kennedy+Park+Pl,+Californi...

It's just a really bad parking lot design.

Regardless, Smart Summon doesn't currently care about things like directionality in a parking lot. This version doesn't try to do anything fancy like reading markings on the pavement.

The app will show you on a satellite map the route that the car is planning to go, assuming this release follows what was shown in the early access releases.

As the person supervising its behavior, it's currently solely your responsibility to make sure that the car doesn't cause problems for other people. The car will do its best to avoid hitting anyone or anything while still making it to your location, but you're still the one in charge.

Smart summon currently works via a dead man's switch. You have to hold down a button the entire time, and if you let go of the button for any reason, the car immediately stops.

The long-term goal is that supervision won't always be necessary, of course, but this feature is available now -- with supervision. If you see an opportunity to use it, it's there. It will get better. I've personally watched Autopilot grow up from something barely usable as a driver assistance technology to something that works extremely well for every day usage.

one bit per frame for 20+ sensors. That is some weak supervision.

So if you want to park head-in (like most of the car in the vid and on Google Maps) you have to go the wrong way temporarily?

"This version doesn't try to do anything fancy like reading markings on the pavement"

Isnt that below minimum viable product for something expected to be used with other people around?

"As the person supervising its behavior"

I'm sure Uber said the same thing to the drivers on its self driving program.

We all know human nature though, it isn't right to abdicate responsibility to someone you know is going to start blindly trusting your 'good enough' system.

As a non Tesla owner, I don't want to be an inadvertent beta tester for these technologies.

You'd be surprised how many actual human beings can't read the markings on the pavement :D

> As a non Tesla owner, I don't want to be an inadvertent beta tester for these technologies.

Yeah, that's my one major concern with Tesla autopilot. I don't like the difference in their advertising and autopilot's actual capability.

Really excited to finally get Spotify integration, that's huge.

Also hoping they install WiFi at superchargers so you can watch youtube/Netflix while charging there. Not sure where else I'd use that feature.

My hope is that now that Spotify is available to Americans (where the people who develop the software are) the integration will no longer be total garbage.

The Spotify integration in v9 is so non-functional for me that I just use Bluetooth.

It seems to have zero ability to retry on network failure, and once it’s failed, it basically doesn’t work again on that trip unless you want to reboot the whole MCU.

Another reason I stopped using it is that if I have an audio book on my phone, if Spotify is selected then my phone will start playing the audiobook in the background over Bluetooth to nowhere while spotify plays on the speakers, thus losing my place in the book while I drive.

>My hope is that now that Spotify is available to Americans (where the people who develop the software are)

I thought Spotify dev was in Sweden, is that not the case?

I’m talking about the Tesla software developers, not Spotify.

Ah, got it.

Tesla’s Spotify integration is done in-house by Spotify in Sweden.

Source: know an engineer on that team.

I'm a little confused; Spotify has been available in the US since 2011.

In US on Tesla, presumably

They are talking about Spotify being integrated into the Tesla infotainment system. It was previously available in some countries, but it wasn't available in the US probably due to an exclusivity agreement with Slacker Radio. You could always listen to Spotify from your phone app connected to the stereo through Bluetooth, but part of this announcement is a native integration with Spotify for Teslas in the US.

Spotify is a Swedish company. Are its developers really mostly in the US?

They have a decent presence in NYC.

Imagine how much bandwidth they'd save if Superchargers with WiFi offered the latest software version cached locally at full WiFi speed to the cars...

CDN costs must be negligible compared to the cost of managing that.

Potentially the expensive cost they would mitigate is the mobile data

I think it only upgrades over WiFi? I remember someone complaining that it was difficult to upgrade because of network issues.

They prioritise upgrade downloads over wifi, even faster over service centre wifi (from my experience)

Yep, I hide my 2nd phone with a power bank in the car sometimes just to provide an AP for the car to initiate a download (it's in a public garage with no public WiFi nearby).

I think they stopped doing the service center wifi thing. It used to be if you just parked in front of the service centers you'd get the update right away, so of course too many people were doing that.

Now you can just select the option to get the software update right away though.

Pretty sure the infrastructure for what they already have would dwarf the costs of adding WAPs and adding some caching software to whatever computers they're almost certainly already managing at the superchargers.

Cloudflare is 100% free for this kind of thing.

No need for a company to ever consider distribution costs again.

Cloudflare is certainly not free for distributing multi-gigabyte binary blobs. Their free bailiwick is "website content". You might fly under the radar at small scale, but any corporation is not going to get to use CF for free to handle that kind of distribution.

> Cloudflare is certainly not free for distributing multi-gigabyte binary blobs.

Citation needed. I've been using it for distributing all kinds of things like that and never paid them a penny... Just make sure you split it to 512MB chunks, which isn't hard for a software updater.

Yes, I imagine many security problems with local deployments.

The code should be signed anyway.

Some telematics firmware downloads already use this https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multimedia_Broadcast_Multicast...

Imagine how easily one could spread a fun new kind of worm by compromising an unattended firmware download mechanism if one were so inclined. Food for thought.

Is there coffee at Superchargers?

I don't know if this is a serious question. The superchargers in my area are in the parking lot of grocery stores in which coffee shops are present.

It was, and thanks!

Disclaimer: Model S owner since 2013

In my experience, Superchargers are ALWAYS near 1) coffee, 2) food, 3) bathrooms.

Although sometimes the food is limited to Carl's Jr.

Fair enough, sometimes the food selection is limited to fast food or fast-food-like.

The one time I took my Model X on a road trip (before I sold it and bought a PHEV), one of the stops was in Lima, Montana. The greasy spoon restaurant in that dirt parking lot was... an experience.

Perhaps a “how the other half lives” one...?

To be fair, you're stopping in literally middle of nowhere in a city with a population of 221[1]. I wouldn't expect much.

1: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lima,_Montana

FYI for Tesla owners in Cali; if you're taking the trip between NorCal and SoCal, make a stop at the Kettleman City supercharger. It's massive, and you get access to a private lounge, espresso bar, air conditioning, nice bathrooms, and even a small play area for little kids.

(Just don't use the vending machines there; got some expired snacks :/)

"All Tesla Superchargers will have free WiFi over time" -- Elon Musk, Apr 2019

https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/1115001019652378624

This is why I am a Tesla fanboy (although somewhat begrudgingly due to Elon's recent antics). They have made car ownership such a joyous experience. I am eagerly waiting to download this and go to town

Is it a joyous experience when you have to wait 1 month+ for basic replacement parts to arrive? How about when your consumer grade touch panel dies from heat and vibration?

Imagine describing sitting in a parking lot watching YouTube in your car a "joyous experience".

I installed the update and with the immersive sound on the Model 3. It is a great experience ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ .

As strange as it is to a pedestrian such as myself, sitting in parking lots with the climate set to your liking, the doors locked, and a media on the screen, seems to be an increasingly popular past-time. I personally don't understand it, but cars selling to this use-case are seemingly more successful than cars that don't, and these parking lot homebodies are popping up more and more.

One place where I can see this as a being useful is to give people something to do while they're waiting for their car to charge.

Which is exactly why they are installing Wi-Fi at Supercharger stations.

I think it could be because personal space is decreasing in many populated areas. Cars are becoming that for many. Even wealthy people in US cities may share space closely with their families, and the option to go for a drive and enjoy a movie night be a real joy.

I imagine a lot gig economy workers sit in their car between orders. What else are you going to do between uber rides? You either listen to something, watch something, or read a book. Maybe you are seeing some of those?

People in Japan rent cars just to sit in them!

https://www.theverge.com/2019/7/5/20683406/japan-car-sharing...

> sitting in parking lots with the climate set to your liking, the doors locked, and a media on the screen

Spotted the person who’s never supercharged a Tesla

Have you never found yourself alone in a car waiting for someone / something?

Imagine being this eager to shit on someone else’s pleasure.

Imagine imagining.

I challenge you to go to the teslamotorsclub.com forums or Reddit and poll ACTUAL users.

You will quickly find that this is NOT the majority. I frequent those forums and most users are very satisfied with their cars.

You have to acknowledge that there's some selection bias in a sampling from a forum for a particular car brand though.

Anecdotes from people who voted with their money > random opinions on the internet.

It's the usual effect: you mostly get 5 stars and 1 stars. Broad middle not motivated to post.

I think you're missing the point... It's people who have not even used the product that I'm talking about here. Akin to those who claimed that the iPhone is stupid because it lacked a QWERTY keyboard. History have proven all of those people wrong and Apple changed the entire smartphone industry...

On top of choice-supportive bias for current owners of any car brand.

most car owners don't wrench on their own car, statistically speaking.

for those of us that do, Tesla does a lot of self-defeating with the way they handle repair and service.

fyi: all car forums are filled with negative experiences with that specific car. The people usually go to forums to try to find help, not to espouse the greatness of their investment.

> fyi: all car forums are filled with negative experiences with that specific car.

Which car and what forums? Care to post some links that are at least more than a week old?

> The people usually go to forums to try to find help, not to espouse the greatness of their investment.

Not true! There are a ton of bad experiences with lackluster customer service. I myself experienced it an posted it at teslamotorsclub.com (Tesla ended up making it right!). So I'm not sure how you came to the conclusion.

I'm not OP but I've read a lot of long wait time for body repair & parts posts over in /r/teslamotors. Tends to be an issue that has slowly been getting better.

For example:

- https://old.reddit.com/r/teslamotors/comments/byc1gt/im_abso...

- https://old.reddit.com/r/teslamotors/comments/8nqh2b/i_got_r...

- https://www.reddit.com/r/teslamotors/comments/ae1goq/waiting...

- https://www.reddit.com/r/teslamotors/comments/bjcedf/waiting...

- https://www.reddit.com/r/teslamotors/comments/ae4lhv/psa_if_...

A good Google Dork is: site:reddit.com/r/teslamotors "Waiting" "parts" "support"

Your first link was for a NEMA 14-50 adapter and Wall charger order on the Tesla online shop and is not a car part? Which supports what I said regarding lackluster customer service. I'm not disputing that.

The last 4 examples are ALL collisions/accidents that involves many parts and a ton of body/structural work... OPs claim was "1 month+ for basic replacement parts to arrive"

I mean, alright, but a five month wait time for a repair after an accident is completely unacceptable. Just because "basic replacement parts" might not be totally accurate, the spirit of the claim absolutely is.

Source: https://www.reddit.com/r/teslamotors/comments/bjcedf/waiting...

> I mean, alright, but a five month wait time for a repair after an accident is completely unacceptable.

It sure is, but OP was implying that it's the majority when it clearly isn't.

I know that was a big issue in Norway but I have not seen owners posting those complaints lately, so it might have been resolved?

In one sentence, "it clearly isn't", and in the next sentence "it was a big issue"?

Read between the lines carefully. I mentioned that it was a "big issue in Norway". Last I checked, "majority" is the entire market.

What is a basic part? My seat rocker broke and I walked into a service center and bought a new one for 2 USD.

What's a seat rocker? Google is turning up household furniture.

I believe its the button on the side of the chair to adjust it

I don’t know why this comment is getting downvoted. While I generally love Tesla, I recently had a wheel alignment issue that literally no other car repair shop could handle except for Tesla’s and I had to wait almost a month for an appointment while my tires continued to unevenly wear.

They are apparently currently in the “support hell” phase of growth... They’ll get past it

> I don’t know why this comment is getting downvoted.

I guess that it's because it doesn't relate to the context/spirit of the parent comment.

Don't know, my experience has directly contradicted this popular narrative. I think, perhaps, these experiences are less frequent than public outlets suggest.

Similar experience here. No issues with getting parts.

I've had issues getting parts for my model S. Additionally the service experience has generally been a complete shitshow. I deeply regret purchasing it.

That is the fear I had in the back of my mind standing in line to reserve a car, sight unseen. Really sorry you have had such a bad time, hope it will improve for you.

Tesla owner since 2015 here. We don't even have a service center here in the Boise, Idaho area (closest one is Salt Lake) just Mobile Techs. Had always had great service experience with our Model X and 3 (sold the S for the newer tech on the Model 3). They show up on our driveway after I schedule service on the app.

We now have two technicians because of the influx of new owners, which is surprising to me since Boise is not exactly a major city.

Someone is grumpy that either A: they can't afford a Telsa, or B: their car is slower than a cheaper Tesla.

Not sure how you came to that conclusion. Part availability is a valid complaint about tesla. This seems to just be a blatant attack on the poster for no reason.

It seems justified though. The person before them was speaking from an overly emotional perspective.

Sorry you got hateful responses to your honest feedback. Plenty of extremely satisfied Tesla owners absolutely agree with you.

It’s sad seeing people fling mud because someone wants to comment that they enjoy something about TFA as a user of said product.

Incidentally, my son is going to go absolutely bonkers once v10 downloads to my TM3, and I will be feeling approximately the same inside, but will do my best to model a slightly more level reaction.

The depth and breadth of anti-Tesla sentiment in HN threads is curious. It's rarely from owners. By all satisfaction surveys, owners love their Teslas.

It's very intriguing indeed... I always thought the HN demographic is a pretty smart bunch, because I often learn quite a bit from the comment section.

I don't get all of the anti-Tesla vitriol, I'm honestly curious what fuels it. It's like all objectivity get's thrown out the window.

> It's like all objectivity get's thrown out the window.

Welcome to the internet? Tesla is just a divisive topic around here and only a small percentage of that concerns their products.

As somebody usually only watching these threads it's quite amusing to be honest. On one side you have the people that just don't like Musk, or those with legit concerns like the right to repair folks. On the other hand you have a mix of satisfied owners and people that for some reason to into full "somebody is wrong on the internet" mode. There rarely ever seems to be any constructive discussion in these threads, any praise devolves into mud swinging, every criticism is jumped upon or dismissed.

I think the people that read HN is a different demographic from those that submit, and again different from those that comment. If you look at people's profiles you can quite starkly see some are uploaders, some don't upload or comment, some only comment. Having said that, HN is more obnoxious nowadays to me than earlier.

> HN is more obnoxious nowadays to me than earlier.

Yeah... I noticed this recently too. The early days were very enjoyable and insightful. Do you have other alternatives?

https://quiethn.com/

I would maybe prefer something that is linux inspired, but https://www.phoronix.com/ is too wordy for me. Something like https://www.planetizen.com/ is cool for me, but maybe too specific.

Suprisingly, Reddit is cool if you choose your subreddits wisely. But apart from that, tbh I think it's probably better to read actual books on topics you find stimulating or maybe something like the Economist.

These are great, thanks!

It goes both ways. Tesla, just like Apple, has kind of a hype around which polarizes discussions in both ways. While some people criticize them too much I don't understand how they get away with the $6000 scam the FSD kit is. I don't think a less hyped brand would get away that.

> I don't understand how they get away with the $6000 scam the FSD kit is. I don't think a less hyped brand would get away that.

This is exactly the kind of vitriol I was talking about... "FSD" now has Navigate on Autopilot, Smart Summon (with v10 it now comes to YOU! https://youtu.be/9cuJATedvDk a Tesla exclusive feature?) Autopark and Auto Lane Change.

If you option these on other similarly priced cars, the bundle will be priced either the same or probably even more.

If you option these on other cars they don't promise you a full self driving car, you get exactly what you pay for. Smart summon and friends are, to me, nothing more than fun gimmicks. The promise of FSD is well... full self driving, to which they have missed every deadline so far and they will very likely not reach it within the lifetime of the current generation teslas. So if you pay $6000 on the promise of getting a full self driving car and you never get it, how is that not a scam?

Tesla has been discussed here for a very long time. And on HN contrarian opinions appear to get more votes than mainstream ones. Back when it wasn't clear that electric cars would have a chance at becoming mainstream talking positively about Tesla was a lot more popular than now (where Tesla seems to be the benchmark for electric cars). At least that's how I remember it, the HN search doesn't seem to go back further than 5 years.

I used to be "anti Tesla", then I tried one, and now I own one.

Teslas are disruptive - they're not what you expect of cars. I will never look the same at a car again. Tell this to anyone who doesn't understand, and they simply won't understand what you're going on about.

Over a year in; driving my Model X still makes me smile.

It's just the Windows / Mac thing all over again. The parallels are striking.

I am also buffled. Teslas make all other feel like a flip phones compared to a smart phone. After owning a Tesla driving an ICE car feels like going back in time. Even for long trips I prefer to take a Tesla, even though I also own 2 gas cars too.

That's because you're not thinking about it from the perspective of the people you're talking about. The only experience that non-Tesla owners have of Tesla is constantly hearing bullshit about "Self-driving" that have constantly been proven untrue, all sorts of stories about quality issues, and a CEO who in many ways is a dick.

as an owner and investor in Tesla, i find it best to avoid hacker news threads tesla focused due to the lack of ignorance and closed minded people who think they know about this company from all of the negative press that they read about the company - which generally is either months old, or talking about garbage. It always ends up this way, for tesla stuff stick with the forums ( tesla, module three owners club, etc ) and reddit.

it’s unfortunate because i’m sure there are some cool thoughts and idea out there on HN but it’s always ruined by negativity. in which, watch this comment get downvoted to oblivion.

Yeah agree, and its not just Tesla. HN comments are negative in general, sometimes to ridiculous extents. I still read them for the odd insightful or interesting take though.

I am honestly not sure how to react to that post. So let me give you some points, in no particular order:

- Just stating bad press has some connotation of "fake news", there is a lot of bias in the media regarding Musk and Tesla. So much that it is close to impossible to get a fact based view. Yet, the facts ot there aren't that great, especially regarding the finances. So if you are making a point about opinions being based on bad press alone and criticize others, provide fact and data.

- Saying others talk garbage is kind of a personal attack, you might want to refer again the posting guidelines.

- One of the interesting points about HN is the multitude of opinions, you don't have to agree to learn something new. Quite the contrary. And here the guidelines come in to have an open discussion.

On a side note, I didn't downvote you. Reason is because in threads like these it doesn't help a lot anyways. Also, I think personal opinions about the discussions here themselves are perfectly fine. Just tone it down with regards to opinions you don't necessarily agree with.

Well, Tesla is doing a lot of things right and a lot of things wrong both as a company and as a product. It’s natural that it would be polarizing compared to a company going straight down the middle like Honda.

I fully agree and am caught in shock every time for the huge dissonance. This doesn't make sense.

I think its because from the outside the same things that annoy with Apple products seems present in Tesla models. Namely: rights to repair and freedom of choice around that. Pursuit of form over function - using a bloody great touch screen when its better not to take your eyes off the road (I prefer physical buttons and dials, plus idrive anyday personally). The fact that the interiors are lower quality than perhaps they should be for the price.

Perhaps mix that with some other less than attractive traits.

My Model S came with a 3G connection and everything worked pretty well.

Then one time I decided to tether it to my phone. Soon after I got a software update, and I went ahead and applied it.

Big mistake. The update not only changed the GUI substantially, but also broke the navigation system and the voice command system.

The navigation system now gives two or three instructions and then nothing, it'd still be active and following the route on screen, but no more instructions.

The voice command system took around 5 seconds to get ready to record, while it was instantaneous before the update.

I took it in for service. They seemed to know about the navigation system problem. But all they could do was to apply the latest update. It didn't fix the navigation system, and the voice command system now takes around 10 seconds to get ready.

Overall I still like the car, but I don't think I'll ever get another, not while they're still pushing out half-baked software updates that could potentially cripple critical functionalities.

Do you think OEM EVs will have better software than an SV EV?

This just in: Tesla owners more likely to enjoy the car they chose to buy.

Also just in: People who think you have to use the touchscreen to drive the car don't have a meaningful opinion about the car

Also also just in: You can not drive a Tesla without using the touchscreen on an almost constant basis. You have never owned a Tesla if you think this is not the case.

I've had a Model 3 for about a year, and it is absolutely not the case. You are ludicrously misinformed, but don't let that stop you from commenting.

I’m not sure why you’re getting upset. I have owned a Model S for 3yrs, I have close friends with Model 3’s that I have driven on a regular basis, and this is a reality that we all agree on. I am most definitely not misinformed. Nearly every setting is controlled on the touchscreen interface. I’m not sure why you would claim that is not the case.

Nearly every setting you'd use while driving is also on the steering wheel.

Your claim was this:

> You can not drive a Tesla without using the touchscreen on an almost constant basis.

This is patently false, but I can't prove a negative. I drive the car every day without touching the screen, let alone on any constant basis, but I guess maybe you know better.

I think you are making false assumptions. One can not drive any car without using the vehicle interface on an almost constant basis, including the Tesla. Since the Tesla only has a touchscreen for interfacing with the vast majority of the vehicle's functions, you are therefore using it constantly - that is my argument. But maybe you use cars differently than myself and those I've surveyed, e.g. music browsing, imperfect automated climate control settings, navigation, insane/ludicrous mode, apps, etc.

> the Tesla only has a touchscreen for interfacing with the vast majority of the vehicle's functions

False. There are voice controls, buttons on the steering wheel, the steering wheel itself, pedals, pedestals (for turn signals like other cars), etc. Even autopilot's functionality doesn't require the screen (or touching it).

> music browsing, imperfect automated climate control settings, navigation, insane/ludicrous mode, apps, etc.

None of these things are required to drive the car, and music browsing is controlled by knobs on the steering wheel.

Respectfully there's no way to respond meaningfully when these statements are made in bad faith. You can't walk back your initial claim to "many non-critical non-driving features require using the touchscreen."

First, you are quoting something that I did not say. Second, I disagree that the items I listed are all a good experience using the mechanisms you highlighted and aren’t an important part of the driving experience; they are indeed “critical” (quoting your mis-quote) to the UX that leads to the choice of vehicle for myself and many others. It is disingenuous to reduce the argument down to basic controls required for vehicle movement and I think you know that.

The last thing I’ll say is this: I think it’s unfortunate that you are so invested in defending your position at all costs that you are unable to separate the argument from passive-aggressive personal attacks.

> You can not drive a Tesla without using the touchscreen on an almost constant basis.

There's your quote, verbatim, and it's false. If you don't want to get called out for verifiably false statements, I'd avoid making them in the future.

> The last thing I’ll say is this: I think it’s unfortunate that you are so invested in defending your position at all costs that you are unable to separate the argument from passive-aggressive personal attacks.

Responding to factual inaccuracies is hardly "defending a position at all costs," but I'm sorry if it got you worked up.

It works both ways, I’ve been heavily downvoted just for saying they won’t have the EV market all to themselves much longer.

I'm still waiting for a viable Tesla competitor. The supercharger network is a surprisingly big bonus when doing the SWOT analysis of buying an EV.

Feature parity would (for me) require at least:

1) Same price point 2) Decent size, bigger than a Leaf, but still not SUV-big 3) Same range with same carrying capacity 4) Something that would compete with the Supercharger network 5) The Geek factor. I want a super-techy EV, not something that's exactly like a normal car, except electric.

Just went for a 2x12-hour road trip, for the first time in a Tesla.

We had a total of two 20-minute charging stops on each (12-hour) leg, during which we ate a burger, took a toilet break and had a cup of coffee. When we were done, the car had enough charge to reach the next planned stop (in 4 hours) with 25% capacity to spare.

Absolutely zero worry about running out of energy, zero time standing still that we wouldn't be taking a break anyway.

All three of us were more rested when we arrived than when we took the same trip in an ICE car six months ago, due to a more quiet and comfortable ride with no engine vibrations. Notably, the trip was also faster.

I’m a former owner of a top of the range Model S and I feel strongly that others should be well informed of Tesla’s deficiencies, of which there are many. Tesla fanboy-ism is a very real phenomenon. And although they’re model line is going in the right direction, they have a long way to go before they compete with the driver thoughtfulness of other vehicles in the same price range.

Can confirm: I love my Model 3, wouldn't trade it for the world - including all the feature that "tech-experts" on HN love to complain about such as being locked into a touchscreen with a proprietary OS.

Is there a specific reason why Tesla refuses to integrate CarPlay or Android Auto?

Due to a lot of the controls and even speedometer only being accessible through the screen, it's probably easier for them to keep it on their own OS.

Lots of cars display their own UI chrome around CarPlay.

Presumably the Tesla software contains a lot more custom built functionality than just a customized UI

I think CarPlay runs basically entirely on the phone and the car manufacturers just add a feature to their existing software to show the pixels coming from the phone.

Other car manufactures have tried avoiding those two because they want to maintain control over their ecosystem. Read up on how Toyota failed at this with their special infotainment Linux OS.

https://www.thecarconnection.com/news/1110821_toyota-owners-...

huh. i didn't know this was a thing: https://www.automotivelinux.org/

part of the linux foundation

Toyota was late to the party, but they finally appear to offer Carplay across their model line: https://www.apple.com/ios/carplay/available-models/

How would you expect that to work and act?

In the model 3, the map area can be taken by AA, ACP.

I'd prefer to use Tesla's software before any Google/Apple integrations any day. Simplistic UI, no botching of privacy/restrictions within eco-systems among other reasons to only support Tesla.

Android Auto isn't all it's cracked up to be. I'm sure they can feel they can do better. I installed Android Auto in my 4runner a few years back and it definitely improved my 4runner experience, but I'm generally happy with my Tesla setup. I'd say the only thing missing from Tesla is Google Assistant integration. Everything else is meh.

Android Auto is very underwhelming. I don't even bother, since it requires you to plug in your phone via USB. After having a wireless charger in the car and at home, I never want to have to mess with a cord again.

Both CarPlay and Android Auto support wireless connectivity.

Sure they support it. But you have to have a head unit that supports it. Only BMW/Mini and Audi offers wireless CarPlay, and only aftermarket head units support Android.

Wireless android auto/carplay are shipping on certain luxury vehicles as well now, I look forward to that feature moving downmarket.

It was very pricey but I got a ProClip mount for my phone. Phone slots right in, automatically starts charging and Android Auto loads right up.

AA/Carplay will win in the long term, simply due to the fact that there's a larger market and app makers can publish their own apps. In other words, I can use Pocket Casts in my Chevy Volt, but need to use a phone screen + bluetooth audio in my Tesla.

That's funny, I didn't realize Android Auto wouldn't work in a Tesla, and now I am very hesitant to buy one. It works perfectly on my wife's car, I can use whatever apps I want (eg. PocketCasts, Spotify, Plex) and the integration with the other aspects of the car is seamless. Teslas are just now getting Spotify?!?! That's exactly the sort of thing I would expect with an in-house system, and exactly why I would want to avoid it. What about navigation? Are you beholden to whatever Tesla provides, or can you use Waze and Google Maps if you want?

I guess I would end up using my phone over Bluetooth, negating much of the benefit the large touchscreen in the Tesla provides, ending up fiddling with my phone to change songs etc.

People are going to point out the privacy issues inherent in using Android, and I understand the complaint, but Google already knows my speed and location at all times anyway just by virtue of having my phone on me. I don't think Android Auto would have any interaction with the cameras or sensors, since most other cars do not have them, but perhaps others can speak to this.

Regardless, this has really diminished my interest in getting a Tesla.

They are such bad reasons to rule out a car that you seem to have very little idea about.

It’s actually a perfectly fine reason to rule out a car. Some people prioritize the niceties of a car over other features. At this point any car without CarPlay (or a replaceable heady it) is a non-starter for me as well. To each their own.

I have a Tesla. I wish it could use CarPlay and/or Android Auto. The Tesla ecosystem is rather lacking.

There are people talking about how being able to watch Netflix, integrate Spotify into their Tesla make it a "joyous" experience to own, and that's valid, but saying that "lack of Apple CarPlay" is a negative against the car is a "bad" opinion?

Why?

I have a long commute, the only thing that makes it bearable is choosing the content I listen to. The app makes a difference here - PocketCasts and Spotify have features that others don't - so I do want to use their native interfaces. The apps I use in the car have great Android Auto interfaces which simplify content selection. Using Android Auto also integrates with the other features on the phone, such as phone calls, calendar reminders, "OK Google", and maps. This essentially defines my entire driving experience at the moment.

If Tesla's interface doesn't support an app that I want to use (eg. Spotify) then I would have to resort to using the phone over Bluetooth. I wouldn't just say "oh well, I spent $50k on this car but it doesn't support PocketCasts so I guess I'll listen to something else for the next hour" every day. This makes the big touchscreen rather useless, and is going to be more dangerous than my current car because I will be fiddling with the phone.

Maybe I'll just get a big suction cup and mount my phone right on top of the touchscreen, using Android Auto on the phone itself over Bluetooth.

Tesla builtin maps use TomTom, which is low quality compare to Google Maps or the new Apple Maps. I find it to be the biggest turn-off.

No it's Google Maps for both navigation directions and map data. There are some features from the Android google maps app not supported on the Tesla, but otherwise it's the same.

That would be false. They might have moved to osm recently, but Tesla’s basemap has been TomTom since ‘17. Google data might have been used for POI, but never for basemap or navigation.

Could be related to what mentioned here (Volkswagen explaining why it's developing its own SW): https://arstechnica.com/cars/2019/09/volkswagen-audi-porsche...

But really be careful how much Android you're talking about. There are some brands really using Google's automotive services; this is not our strategy. When you do this, you get a great package of function and services, no doubt. But you also have to open up all the car's sensor data [to Google], and when I say all, it really is all sensor data," Senger told me.

(statement from Christian Senger, mentioned by Ars as being VW Group's Digital Car and Services division)

I think you may be confusing Android Auto with Android for Cars. The former is the mobile app and headunit-only integration (audio controls) via video stream, which requires minimal integration with the vehicle. The other is Android repurposed for headunits, with full car integration, such as Volvo's integration.

Car manufacturers of luxury cars shy away from Android Auto partially because they believe it turns one of their main selling points and silos (advanced technology) into yet another commodity.

Thx for the definitions - useful/interesting (but I did not doublecheck them, hehe) :)

> which requires minimal integration with the vehicle

My guess: maybe VW is scared of a potential "which CURRENTLY requires minimal integration with the vehicle" (I imagine that the push for more and more integration will increase in the future) and therefore decided to give it a try now and not to become passively dependent on Google.

The real answer: VW wants to get a cut of the datamining pie.

The branding is confusing. It gets worse, the deeper you get into car technology.

Then why do current Audis have perfectly fine Android Auto integration?

Because Audi views themselves as a performance brand over a luxury brand. They're also hungrier and thus more responsive to consumer demand.

BMW allows carplay with a monthly subscription to the rest of their services, largely because they believe that as long as you're getting the full benefit of a connected car, you'll be attached to the value - strategically, it makes no sense for them to give it away from free.

The other thing? These companies are starting to change their mind as consumers demand it as a feature.

I always knew there were good reasons I prefer Audi.

Although to be honest, if not for the unconscionable amount of money they (or Navteq, I guess) asks for map updates, I'd be even happier just using the built-in navigation all the time.

Thanks for explaining the distinction. Somewhat reminiscent of the People's Front of Judea vs the Judean People's Front.

It's really baffling. The CarPlay experience in our Volkswagen is so good I cannot imagine ever going back to an automaker's in-house system. Even the ones in the luxury cars I've had -- BMW, Mercedes -- have been absolute crap compared to CarPlay.

I don't even care that it requires USB.

I can second this. I've used both CarPlay and Android Auto in my Golf R, and compared to a few rentals I've driven recently its amazing how much better VW is at this.

Beyond just the normal controls (which can sometimes be hit or miss once you're in CarPlay/AndroidAuto mode) the extra little functionalities you notice are amazing. A good example is when using Google Maps I can zoom in/out by just pinching the touchscreen in the car, or I can use the physical dial (normally for changing radio stations) to control the zoom level, or scroll through selections. If you change contexts, what the physical dial control change along with them, and its really slick once you get used to it.

Heh. My VW is a GTI, so we have the same system.

I didn't know until I saw it in my ex-sister-in-law's Alfa, but apparently there ARE CarPlay implementations that don't have touchscreens. That makes it much less easy, though still better than any automaker's.

I have used and liked CarPlay and was put off by tesl not having it... until I tried Tesla’s. CarPlay is essential for routing around the horrible crap put out by most carmakers but the Tesla ui is awesome. It’s big, it’s fast, and it’s 100% focused on automotive use. I’d still like the option, but I can’t say I miss it.

Second this. I love Android Auto. But I love my Model 3 UI more.

I'm picking you to reply to, but several people noted they like the Tesla UI -- but none of the people I know IRL do. That's interesting.

What Tesla does is kind of irrelevant to us, though, since we're a 1-car family, and need to retain the ability to take long trips in areas with poor charger concentration. IOW, if we had 2 cars, one could definitely be a Tesla, but we don't need 2 cars.

I also LOVE CarPlay, however I'm baffled as to why more manufacturers don't equip the wireless CarPlay option. I have it in my daily driver, and it's so nice to be able to leave my phone in my pocket, or toss it on the wireless charging mat, and still have CarPlay work perfectly. But my brand new truck only has the wired option:(

That sounds cool, but I also find that for any drive over 10-15 minutes, it's probably a good time to top off the battery, and so the tethering doesn't bother me.

But I get what you're saying.

Though I wouldn't mind CarPlay in my Model 3, the custom system Tesla has is just as good, or better than it. It is generations ahead of anything built into other vehicles, even luxury ones.

I suggest you actually try the Tesla UI. It puts every other automaker's system to utter shame so you shouldn't be lumping it in with the others. It's at the level of CarPlay, if not better.

Straightforward they have no interest in losing control of the software running. I think the idea is that the product will continue to work even after smartphones. Also they were a bit miffed with Apple a while back.

But yeah no nothing to do with data rights on Apple’s end, google does want more data though.

My S.O. has CarPlay in her Audi and while it is definitely superior to the built-in UI (this to me says more about how bad those UI’s are to begin with!), it is a shitshow compared to the UI of my Tesla.

Simple examples:

1) If you accidentally tell the car or the phone not to use CarPlay for a particular phone, there is no obvious way to get it to ask again

2) If you are connected to the same phone via Bluetooth AND CarPlay’s USB connection (...why does it even permit this to begin with??)... Wonkiness results

3) My S.O. refuses to use Waze on it because Waze’s own notifications overlay/BLOCK important elements of its own nav and are not trivially dismissed (do they even test these things??)

These are just off the top of my head in an Audi, hardly a run-of-the-mill car.

Try a Tesla’s UI for a while, and CarPlay will seem like garbage. It becomes very clear why they didn’t go with it. I only wish it had Waze on it, and then I could get rid of my phone mount.

Perhaps to capture both iOS and android users. On an aside isn’t it just silly that you, your partner and car Choice have to coordinate Android / google

Because there's no need for it?

"Those using Smart Summon must remain responsible for the car and monitor it and its surroundings at all times. "

Does this come with an "oh god, stop!" button of some sort?

I wonder what happens if your phone freezes and you can't push the "oh god, stop!" button? Would you still be at fault?

I guess it's an "keep going" button that you have to hold down, but still, if you're phone freezes - is there a fail state we can be absolutely certain of between the phone and the car?

> we can be absolutely certain

Such a thing does not exist. You can only add more nines (e.g. heartbeats, check sensor jitter etc.). At some point you're more likely to be ran over by another car than the tesla slowly, patiently crushing you at 2km/h.

Of course that doesn't mean tesla is actually that reliable.

Heartbeats won't catch UI freezes, which I've seen on phones. Hopefully, those would result in a drop of the input signal rather than it locked in its prior state, though.

Heartbeat would hopefully also include a counter, so that a locked input signal would result in the vehicle rejecting the heartbeat (sees that each message is the same instead of incrementing the counter).

No guarantee that's how they implemented it, though.

They could mitigate such a failure mode by requiring a constant motion, like swiping a knob back and forth continuously

"keep going" button = Dead mans switch [1]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dead_man%27s_switch

I could easily imagine a failure mode where the UI stops responding to input (that is, doesn't pass the "touch end" event to the app) and the app continues to send the "keep going" signal to the car.

That could definitely happen, but it would have to happen at the same time the car's normal collision avoidance systems fail. Certainly possible to happen, but probably pretty unlikely.

You hope the car relies on continuous signal from the phone to proceed. It's certainly possible that the phone freezes in a way that the "keep going" signal continues to be sent, but it's probably not the more likely failure mode. Definitely a good thing to be concerned about!

I may be just a bad developer but my first thought when I see or build a new feature for anything is "how could this go wrong, and who will it kill if it does?" Thankfully, I don't make self driving vehicles, so the second question is usually at worst a handful.

That sounds exactly how a good engineer would think...

It's not a bad mindset to have.

More than likely, as the driver holds the button on the phone, the phone sends a message with the command, at a decently fast rate. If the message stops coming in, doesn't come in within an acceptable interval, comes in out of order (possibly indicating a bad line of site), or signal strength is low. If any of this happens, the car exits summon and the driver has to re-enable it if they want to.

Im picturing a tesla creeping through someones garage wall and into their living room as the owner dashes their phone against the driveway

Followed by the Allstate mayhem guy: "and with your cut-rate insurance, you could be paying for this yourself."

Or the Farmer's guy "It happened, and we covered it".

Tesla would undoubtedly want you to be. Who has more money to hire lawyers, you or Tesla?

It’s not an “oh god stop” button.

It’s a “continuing going” button. And if the connection to the car is interrupted even briefly then Summon deactivates.

This is how Summon has always worked. I’ve had my phone die while using it. The car stopped before the shut down spinner graphic even showed up.

I believe it's controlled by a sort of dead man's switch, i.e. you must continuously hold down a button for the car to move.

Literally - you stop holding it until after you are dead.

There must be additional safety features in the software to avoid collision with obstacles? Sonar sensors?

The newest version of Summon uses the cameras and I'm guessing the ultrasonic/radar to actually avoid obstacles, but is controlled by the app (you have to be holding the button down in the app)

They are one digital steering knob away from turning the whole thing into an 500 Hp RC car.

Like the car from Tomorrow Never Dies (1997), 22 years later.

Well, there's a cross-promotion I really hope one day happens. Tesla and a 20 year old movie! Yeah!

Yes, the 'hold the button' is a final liability layer on top of all of the onboard collision avoidance.

Er, the entire autopilot sensor and NN stack…

You have to keep pressing the button. As soon as you release the button or the car looses the connection to the phone, it stops.

Does smart summon have a mechanism to avoid sleeping pets (or children) lying under the wheel base? Is that just the 'operator's responsibility?

Are you literally asking about how the feature performs if there is a child hiding under the car?

Yes. Because if there aren't any undercarriage sensors this will eventually lead to deaths.

And what prevents you from climbing into your car and doing the same thing? Do you check under your car every time before you drive off? I know I certainly don't and never have.

You might notice legs sticking out from under the car, and your getting in is going to cause a fair bit of alerting noise - doors opening and closing, you moving around. Without even a motor to start, the Tesla will just start moving.

Maybe not children, but in my city it's not uncommon to find cats and other small animals sleeping under cars during winter.

Witness the contradiction right in Tesla's own material:

> You can use this while being distracted by a fussy child[1].

> [1] You must be paying full attention to the car.

Look, if you don't like the car, you can just not buy it. Why piss on other people's experiences?

Because it's hip and edgy to hate on Elon/Tesla it seems.. Even though these types haven't even experienced driving the cars.

The experience has been eloquently put by Chamath Palihapitiya in this video:

https://youtu.be/lx6GJADrflk?t=255

Yes, the company is not perfect, but at least they are trying to accelerate the transition to renewables.

Not sure why they called this new feature "Joe Mode". Who is this Joe? An employee? Why not call it quiet mode?

I may be incorrect, but I recall it being about someone on Twitter had sent a message to Elon asking if they could turn down the volume of the alerts because it would wake up their kids while they were driving. His name was Joe. So Tesla implemented “Joe Mode”.

From Tesla: https://www.tesla.com/support/software-version-10-0#joe

They wouldn’t say this, but I’m guessing it’s a sly reference to Sleepy Joe (Biden).

Enhanced summon is great. I had early access and used it on rainy days. Never again worried I’ll forget my umbrella.

Is this memeified announce video typical for official Tesla marketing? It’s so casual it is hard to take seriously.

Tesla is not your father’s car.

> Tesla is not your father’s car.

But, it is (at least at that price point).

Whenever I see a mercedes/audi/mclaren/tesla/maserati/bentley, it's almost always an older adult driving (40-60 if I had to guess). Probably because these cars aren't affordable for people until late in their career.

(I'm in upstate NY, the demographics are surely on the younger side in the bay area where you have tech workers who earn enough early in their career to afford it)

That style marketing video is incredibly confusing given the target market.

Interesting that you call this memeified: it seems par for the course for present day marketing videos and it doesn't faze me. Then again, I am not my father.

They changed their branding 2-3 months ago. I thought it was weird at first, but it's kinda working. I'm personally sick of all the nice car commercials looking more like a Calvin Klein cologne ad.

Do you recall exactly when? I suspect this video cost almost zero to make. Would be curious to see the changeover. Was it addressed / highlighted at the time?

Around July when they hired one Adam Koszary

https://twitter.com/AdamKoszary/status/1130837644827660289?s...

He apparently got hired because Elon likes his "absolute unit" sheep meme.

https://www.businessinsider.com/tesla-hires-social-media-man...

Their twitter has been a lot more whimsical since. For example:

https://twitter.com/Tesla/status/1175048579829944320

This looked like a fan made video, and I started to speculate in my comment that it was somebody that Elon liked, possibly emailed with occasionally so this is no surprise. Actually thought that kind of speculation we get down voted

Had a ~60 year old guy come up to me in the parking lot a couple weeks ago.

He had just bought a Model S for his wife. He said, “I’ve always, always bought Mercedes. Oh man. Oooooh man. That thing. It’s just. So fast. You push the gas and...”

I thought about saying, “What gas?” But I just congratulated him on his (wife’s) new car.

(I drive a TM3, is why he approached me.)

I was really excited for a minute there hoping that they finally fixed the "autoplay media on the phone on opening the door" bug that plagued the car since its launch. But no such luck.

That sounds like a bug that could potentially be pretty embarrassing.

This might be phone OS specific. I have an iPhone and the latest iOS13 update seems to have fixed this.

Agreed. iOS 13 fixed that for me when I installed the public betas at the start of summer.

Smart summon is here; hide your young children.

The supposed use case described here is a parking lot also, where there will be lots of pedestrians darting between cars.

This might work out ok at low speed. The algorithm is simply "Don't hit anything. Stop if confused."

Considering that they haven't perfected the "don't accelerate into stationary objects" algorithm, I'm not sure I trust this in an area with a lot of pedestrian traffic.

Accelerate, decelerate, stationary, moving, so much complicated math. It's not surprising computers can't handle it.

The freeway control regime is entirely different from a low-speed control regime required to safely maneuver in a parking lot. Where I'd expect strange things to occur would be when a car confuses a baby rolling on the asphalt with a garbage bag being blown in the wind, and runs it over.

It is all about adjusting the confidence required to make certain actions. A car traveling 70 mph on the freeway can be in a lot of danger if it suddenly brakes unnecessarily, but that generally isn't true for a car going 10 mph in a parking lot. You therefore have to be a lot more confident that "garbage bag" is a "baby" on the freeway while in the parking lot you can stop at pretty much all signs of trouble.

Your second sentence doesn’t follow from your first.

On the highway the car has to distinguish between garbage bag and human, and avoid false positives because they can cause an accident.

In the parking lot the car doesn’t exceed I think 3mph and had no safety reason to avoid false positives. It will stop for the garbage bag every time.

Is it technically possible for Smart Summon to collide with something? Perhaps it is. And I guarantee we will see people testing this heavily on YouTube with styrofoam in the coming weeks.

Incidentally, it’s also possible for drivers to hit other people in parking lots too. It’s actually one of the most likely locations for a vehicle to collide with a human.

The sooner we have algorithms driving in parking lots that are safer than humans driving in parking lots, the better.

Again, to your original point, it’s a particularly good place to start as you can allow the false positives in the name of a strict collision safety regime.

Teslas have ultrasonic sensors in all directions with about 5m of range. This doesn't help with preventing running into things at highway speeds, but certainly on parking lots. So it has a fallback to avoid collisions while in summon mode.

Why are you spreading fake information? This hasn't been the case for years, if ever.

Seeing as the video shows the car driving the wrong way down a one way street in the parking lot, I'm not so sure.

Apparently babies often nap outside in nordic countries (see cafe image): https://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-21537988

I could imagine smart summon really doing something bad, since it is using tech that just isn't ready.

As a data point that it isn't so shocking, I'm in the US and my father said his parents put him and his siblings out to nap in their unheated porch on winter days as infants. That wasn't some homey, rural childhood -- he was born and raised in Chicago, though it was the late 20s/early 30s.

Does anyone know if the user interface is still Qt/QML?

It probably is. Why would they rewrite their UI if the Qt one works?

It would not be the first time a company has dropped Qt overnight, especially with their recent push for royalties on all products.

I'm always surprised how many ycombinator news readers keep repeating utterly false trite that they heard in some news report that is completely false or was true years ago and has long been fixed. It's like people are just only listening to things that confirm their anti-Tesla biases. People need to take a step back and just read the Wikipedia on things more often.

I have a VW radio with a touchscreen.

Fortunately the volume knob is in a fixed location so I can use it without taking my eyes of the road and the skip/play buttons are on the steering wheel.

While aircraft use glass cockpits , the important controls keeping it in the sky are still good old button/levers even with different shapes/textures.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EFbKj5CUwAEA_Wt.jpg

That image is actually quite powerful, I never thought about it like that.

- jaguar vs tesla

- blackberry vs iphone

- accessibility vs simplicity

- function vs form

- classic vs modern

They are both really good products, but some will prefer the blackberry and some the iPhone. The only thing we have in common, is always be ranting about why the other product is bad.

I have seen a few comments talking about how Tesla’s can’t even read the traffic signs...

This is a conscious decision because signs are easily spoofed by black tape. Because speed limits change so infrequently, it is much easier and safer to pull from a lookup table than to read dirty signs and rely on CV...

What about reduced speed at road works?

Humans can also be spoofed by black tape but humans, usually, have common sense to realize that going 100 in a small city road is probably a very bad idea.

The entertainment system improvements are amusing. I installed an Android-based radio in my 19 year old ICE car for less than $300 and have all of these features.

For internet, you have to be in Wifi range, add a SIM card to the radio, or tether from your phone. (I tether or use the house Wifi).

It's fun to add a bluetooth OBD2 dongle, so I can watch vacuum/boost on the screen with the Torque app (or diagnose car problems, it is an old car..).

https://www.amazon.com/Eonon-Bluetooth-Navigation-Support-Sy...

I remember putting one of those in my old Jetta. Thing was a piece of crap. Slow UI, programmed for Japanese radio stations. Looked much better than the stock head unit though. Its saving grace was Bluetooth streaming.

I think they are improving over time. The one I have from a few years ago has a fast GUI, but admittedly has a few annoyances:

The FM radio overloads when I drive near a transmitting tower (the stock radio and an aftermarket Kenwood I have in another car don't have this problem).

It's nice that it integrates with the car's computer, but it could be better. When I back up it switches to back-up cam mode, which turns off the radio or anything else you're doing. This has the side effect that I try to rush through the back-up manoeuver to get the radio back.

I'm tempted to upgrade to a more recent one to see if these things have improved. An upgrade from one aftermarket radio to another is pretty easy, because the wiring is all done.

Yeah, I did this upgrade in the first place just to add bluetooth and figured I give the Android radio a try.

How is Smart Summon legal to use?

I'm guessing parking lots are private property?

> How is Smart Summon legal to use?

I can't imagine it is legal anywhere fully automated, unsupervised cars are not, even places that have supervised autonomous testing, since there is no driver at the controls. Of course, if you are someplace the public driving laws don't apply, and no private rules have yet been adopted against it, you might be okay even in jurisdictions where self-driving vehicles aren't allowed.

> I'm guessing parking lots are private property?

They are, but in CA they frequently have signs notifying that the public Vehicle Code applies and is enforced.

I kinda wish Tesla made a few regular petrol cars for the enthusiast type such as myself, as this sounds like a ton of neat technology to play around with. I'm just not in the market for an electric car, unfortunately.

Edit: By enthusiast, I mean track/motorsport/etc enthusiast. I borrowed a Model S from a friend of mine for a few days and while I enjoyed it, it wasn't the most exciting drive, and I can't imagine it would be much good on a track. Amazing technology though.

I used to be a huge enthusiast, drove mr2s, z06 corvettes, a wrx, bmw 3 series, autocrossed the competitively.

Driving an electric tesla made all of those cars feel utterly dumb.

If you drive cross country a lot or do long track sessions, I get it, tesla won't work well, but if you don't think an enthusiast would like a tesla, give one a try.

Right unless you routinely go on 500+ mile trips with a longer range Tesla or 400+ mile trips with the shorter range models there is no need for a gas car. I road trip a decent amount but I've released 4-5 hour drives aren't really an issue.

And of course those trips are possible you'd just need to stop 1-3 times for 10-15 mins (you charge faster at lower batter % vs fill up more range once). Now if you want to go 2x your battery range, then you actually start to have a mild inconvenience with charging time.

I thought that, too, but I have taken a couple of longer (800 mile or so) trips in the Tesla and was pleasantly surprised. I thought the 'charge for 30 minutes' at a supercharger was going to seem like a lot of waiting, but by the time we unloaded the kids out of the car, went to the bathroom, etc, the car was already charged.

Being forced to stop every couple of hundred miles was really not that bad. Broke up the trip nicely.

Also, the autopilot is AMAZING for long trips. Even though you have to pay attention, it is so much less exhausting than fully driving. I kinda feel like a supervisor, watching out far down the road, looking out for strange things coming up, etc. Just a very pleasant experience.

I second this. I had the same concerns but we stop anyway with young kids. And charging has never felt too long. Since there are so many superchargers in the northeast US (DC-Boston) you can stop for 15 mins at a time even and that’s fine too.

The self driving makes road trips utterly relaxing.

100%. Tesla is THE car for long roadtrips in the US and the narrative otherwise needs to stop.

CURRENT Superchargers charge up to 600 miles per hour. COMPLETELY dead to COMPLETELY full is like 30 minutes. But most stops to charge will only last long enough for you to pee and grab a red bull

NEW superchargers charge up to 1000 miles per hour. Do the math. You're going to have to start jogging if you want your redbull before idle fee's kick in.

Combine that with autopilot. I took a trip in a gas rental car recently and HATED it. Tesla for roadtrips for sure.

What really needs to stop is the fanboi narrative of "I drive my glorious Tesla like that (and damn the compriomises) so YOU BETTER LOVE IT TOO, AAARGGGHHHH!!!!!!"

If it works for your roadtrips, great. For mine it doesn't, and anyone telling me that I should enjoy spending an hour in some crummy location in the middle of nowhere waiting for the thing to charge (but only to 80%, or your battery will lose capacity!) are probably the same people who enjoy Elon's fart jokes.

Same. The Tesla Model 3 is great. I'd get one if I didn't have crushing doubt about their ability to service their cars. Or stay in business long-term.

> I'd get one if I didn't have crushing doubt about their ability to service their cars. Or stay in business long-term.

Are you serious? That false narrative fueled by FUD has been the talking point by short-sellers since 2008 (Only Tesla and Ford survived the 2008 market crash btw).

It's now 2019 and you would think people would know any better.

False narrative? The "narrative" is their financial data. The fact that there is so much capital floating around to keep bad businesses afloat doesn't make them good businesses.

I'm sure the shady silicon valley dealings are isolated to WeWork, even though Tesla is being sued for similar self-dealing. Good luck!

Netflix

Revenue — $17 billion Gross Profit — $5.8 billion EBITDA — $2 billion Market Cap — $111 billion Debt — $14 billion Enterprise Value — $125 billion

Tesla

Revenue — $25B Gross Profit — $4B EBITDA — $2.33B Market Cap — $39B Debt — $14B Enterprise Value — $54B

-------------------

Uber

Revenue — $12 billion Gross Profit — $4 billion EBITDA — negative $7.6 billion Market Cap — $53 billion Debt — $6.2 billion Enterprise Value — $50.5 billion

Tesla

Revenue — $25B Gross Profit — $4B EBITDA — $2.33B Market Cap — $39B Debt — $14B Enterprise Value — $54B

I can go on but hopefully you get the point.

Holy shit! The lies that you have put

Tesla's Q2 Gross Profit was 900 million with a Gross profit of -170 Million.

Where did you get the 25B Gross Profit from?

> Revenue — $25B Gross Profit — $4B

I think this means that the Gross Profit was $4B, not 25. And Gross Profit is Revenue - Cost of Goods Sold [0], so they may still have had losses after R&D and expansion.

The EBITDA number of $2.33B also seems reasonable as a "last four quarters" measure here [1] (which actually lists $2.35B).

0: https://www.investopedia.com/terms/g/grossprofit.asp

1: https://www.macrotrends.net/stocks/charts/TSLA/tesla/ebitda

> Holy shit! The lies that you have put

Do you actually know how read financials? I hope you don't actually dabble in active trading...

If you do, you should stop now and just put your hard-earned money into an index fund and call it a day.

Partly I think this is motivated by the law that gives tax breaks to companies that show losses. So then no big surprise that many tech companies show losses, regardless of their corporate health. Amazon is one; they've almost never shown a profit ever, and when they have it has been exceedingly slight (surely an accounting "mistake"). Yet they are still in business over 20 years later, and that success has catapulted multiple individuals into the billionaire range. Shady? Definitely. Too much capital? Clearly not, since Amazon has out-performed any possible influx of capital.

There is clearly some dark art in accounting, but I don't think it's always because the companies are covering up bad business. It might be because they're trying to make as little taxable profit as possible.

If you take a closer look at their financial data, you'll find that it's quite a bit better than what people repeat.

In Fiscal Year 2018, they had positive operating cash flow of $2.1 billion. Part of the reason for the difference between accounting earnings (a loss) and actual cash flow is the huge depreciation charges ($1.9 billion) for historical capital expenditures, versus present-day cash outflows.

In that year, Tesla still spent a lot of cap-ex dollars on Model 3 capacity and battery capacity (to the tune of $2.3 billion), so overall cash flow was slightly negative - about $200 million for the year, off of $21 billion in revenue.

In the six months since then, they're reported additional positive operating cash flow: $224mm off of $10.9 billion in revenue.

This is a company experiencing 47% y/y revenue growth for the first half of the year. Yes, they're spending on cap-ex, but they are producing positive operating cash flow and their total operating+cap-ex cash flow is running a little in the red, but <1% of revenues.

And in context, they have $5 billion in cash and $10 billion in short term assets.

Tesla is not at significant financial risk.

For a company not at significant financial risk why is their credit rating so low? Investors shouldn't be concerned about repayment if Tesla is likely to remain solvent.

If you rely solely on credit ratings or other noise for investment advice, I have bad news for you.

Don't be so condescending. It's a measure of solvency and they don't drop it to junk just for fun.

Huh?, 2008 they were not in survival mode. There wasn't anything there for Tesla to crash.

Tesla now operates in Billions of dollars. A 10% miss in sales results in Billions in losses.

> Huh?, 2008 they were not in survival mode.

It sure was! They had some troubles delivering the very first Roadsters and Elon had to use his own money to keep the company afloat (also SpaceX) and continue making payroll.

> A 10% miss in sales results in Billions in losses.

Well that's how the market inherently works you know? Tesla vehicle sales have also been rising year-over-year so your 10% miss does not apply.

that makes no sense

like you said in 2008 there wasn't anything there. They lose millions the whole company dies

now Tesla operates in billions of dollars. They lose billions it's still only 10%

Since 2008.... Reading comprehension much?

The first point is VERY valid. There are tons of stories of people waiting weeks for a simple door repair.

The second one is kinda whatever. I don't actually fear they will go out of business. But neither do I have infinite confidence in their business model.

> There are tons of stories of people waiting weeks for a simple door repair.

Once again, tons imply that it’s the majority. Unless you have actual verifiable data to cite, you’re just operating on opinionated data.

Can we please stop with ridiculous BS about evil shortsellers? Would you believe that it's martians spreading "fud" about Tesla, if Elon says so? And that would be at least as accurate as the shorts nonsense.

> Can we please stop with ridiculous BS about evil shortsellers?

Have you been living under a rock? I didn't even know about the insane short interest and the countess $TSLAQ Twitter trolls until I became a Tesla owner. Which is apparently been there since the early days.

Is it BS because it does not fit your narrative? or is it a baseless claim? If so, can you please cite sources?

> Would you believe that it's martians spreading "fud" about Tesla, if Elon says so?

Is that your attempt at insulting my intelligence? I look at everything objectively... I typically stay quiet if I don't know enough on a particular topic or don't have anecdotes.

There is no "insane short interest" in Tesla. Just because Elon might want you to think that it is some nefarious conspiracy and not Tesla's incompetency in many aspects of making a car (pretty much anything pother than making the best available electric powertrain, really) and his personal douchebaggery that are causing problems. That canard about Tesla being the most shorted stock on the planet since the beginning of times has been debunked so many times it's not evenv interesting anymore.

I have no interest in discussing your intelligence, but but once you start bringing out "shortseller fud" your credibility goes straight out of the window. Even claiming that Elon is behaving like a jerk because he's hiding from hit squads hired by Saudi Aramco would be both more plausible and make more sense.

> There is no "insane short interest" in Tesla. Just because Elon might want you to think that it is some nefarious conspiracy....

Really? Because Elon said so you think I blindly believe it? What a snooty baseless statement.

What is this then? https://www.nasdaq.com/market-activity/stocks/tsla/short-int...

Also this: http://shortsqueeze.com/shortinterest/stock/TSLA.htm

More: https://www.reddit.com/r/teslainvestorsclub/comments/brj8zf/...

Should I go on? Let's stick to just facts, and get off your high horse.

Yes, please, go on. I am sure you realize that when talking of insane, or otherwise, interest in Tesla, showing numbers for Tesla alone is absolutely useless. According to [0] Tesla doesn't even make it to the top of the second page, and quite a few companies well ahead of it are real large businesses and household names.

Repeating the few tired talking points ("it's the shorts!", "you just didn't drive one", "pecking at 5 buttons in random positions on a touch screen is easier than pressing one physical button") just gives a pretty unflattering impression of Tesla's fans.

[0] http://highshortinterest.com/all

> showing numbers for Tesla alone is absolutely useless.

If you don't know how to read financial data, then probably. The site you linked contradicts what you've been whining about... According to it, the current short interest is currently at 29%.. By definition anything above 20% is considered to be extremely high.

Looking at your post history, it's also very clear that you have great disdain not only for Tesla but Elon. Nobody is holding a gun to your head to buy the cars of like the guy. But here you are, shitting on people who love a product.

>Repeating the few tired talking points...just gives a pretty unflattering impression of Tesla's fans.

How is this impacting your daily life? Does it bother you that much that it's making it hard for you to sleep at night? Or do you just get off on spouting anger?

I don't go around telling other people who love a certain product/brand to shut up. Just because you don't like something, others don't have to share the same opinion as you... Even more so, if it's not based on facts but emotion.

Yes, I do have great disdain for Elon, he's an absolutely terrible human being. Thanks for digging it up.

You may define "extremely high" at any level you want, but you don't get to claim that Tesla is shorted to any kind of unusual, extreme, never seen before level. None of those companies gets to claim that "it's all shorts' fault" either.

You driving a Tesla probably affects me positively (well, apart from the taxpayer fleecing angle anyway), but the complete lack of intellectual honesty on the part of Tesla supporters is... not even annoying, it's rather amusing. Where else do you get to see people seriously claiming that it is more convenient and safer to hunt and peck several buttons on a touch screen that pressing one on a door? Only in Tesla world!

> Yes, I do have great disdain for Elon, he's an absolutely terrible human being. Thanks for digging it up.

Ohh.. Interesting. So not only is that you have severe anger issues, but you're also holier than thou. Geez guy, get a grip. What have you done for humanity? Look at a mirror and yourself that question.

But you know...I truly feel sorry for you. I hope you find peace, whatever pain you're suffering inside.

Tesla bonds are rated deeeep into junk. Comparatively Toyota is high in the investment grade as are VW's. Having junk long term bonds is not great, having junk short term ones is downright scary. This is even worse considering it's a company that so desperately needs the ability to get cheap loans. It's not a narrative without its facts, it's a speculation based on concerning evidence.

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21085844

I'm in the same boat and also raced motorcycles around closed circuit racetracks in sanctioned events so I understand the draw. I have 25k miles on my '18 Model 3 now and can't imagine going back to even the best gas car I ever drove. It's just apples and oranges. Both have a special place in my heart but I'll take the EV nine times out of ten these days! Anybody on the fence should just give it a whirl and see for yourself!

I've driven my Model 3 on a 2400-mile road trip from Fremont to Memphis, as well as many 200-800 mile road trips and it has really exceeded my initial expectations. I would not want to take a long trip in a conventional car again.

The combination of autopilot, infotainment, and smoother ride makes it less tiring. The charging stops tend to happen when I would want to take a break and eat anyway. Also, hotels with Tesla chargers are great.

The other major caveat is that your trips need to not venture far from the interstate. I was interested in a Tesla, but my frequent camping trips in Rainier make it impossible for the moment.

Check out RV connections at campgrounds, if you haven't already. They're not as fast as Superchargers, but overnight you can easily go from empty to full. Looking at Plugshare.com, I see a bunch of level 2 chargers to the north-northwest of Mt. Rainier.

I strongly prefer to camp in the NF right outside the park or in the park itself, so that rules out the RV campgrounds. I think the L2 stuff you're seeing is in the Seattle metro, there's nothing near Rainier. I'm coming from Portland, so it'd be way out of my way to go to Seattle.

Hmm, now I'm thinking about how I would plan a trip like that... Google Maps shows 139 miles from Portland to Mt. Rainier. My Model 3 (long-range, RWD) has about 306 miles range at the moment (after 42,000 miles) so I could almost go there and back without charging, but altitude changes and low temperatures will crimp the range a bit.

Are you familiar with Alexander's Lodge? (https://alexanderslodge.com/) It looks like they have a couple of Tesla Destination Chargers, which typically work at around 40mph, (40 miles of range for each hour of charge) so it would work to drive there, charge for an hour or two, and have enough range to comfortably drive back to Portland in a day or two.

Of course, that doesn't mean the Model 3 is right for you in every way, but it's interesting to think through scenarios like this.

(edit) https://www.plugshare.com/location/79838

Yeah, Alexander's Lodge comes up a fair amount when I was researching this. Overall, the trip is like, barely doable, but then you have to consider that from Ohanapecosh (one of the major campgrounds) to Sunrise (where a lot of hikes start) is 30 miles, so in a 2-day trip, that could easily be an extra 60-120 miles of driving. On longer 3 or 4 day trips, I've sometimes needed to drive out of the park to Packwood to fuel up, because the park is so spread out. BTW, when I was looking in A Better Route Planner, it recommended driving up to the supercharger in Centralia, or even driving all the way up around to Enumclaw (IIRC), which is way out of the way.

The ideal (for me anyway) would really be to have a supercharger (or other fast charging) at Sunrise, and ideally one in Packwood as well. Or forgot the whole enterprise altogether and put in a bus service like Zion has.

Of course, Rainier is only one example. Once you get into Eastern Oregon, the charging situation is even worse.

I would hope that if we get a more forward-thinking government in the next few years that we start thinking about this kind of stuff, because thinking about the carbon impact of "enjoying nature" is pretty bleak stuff. I'm actually interested in this problem enough that I've started to look at the economics of building charging stations (demand charges!)

> I used to be a huge enthusiast, drove mr2s, z06 corvettes, a wrx, bmw 3 series, autocrossed the competitively.

> Driving an electric tesla made all of those cars feel utterly dumb.

Why do they feel dumb? I hear this kind of stuff but I don't get it.

Do you still do all the things you did with your old cars but now with your Tesla?

instant torque available all the time. everyone loves big v8s because of this, electric cars do it more. and without any drivetrain lashing, no pauses or upsetting the car for shifting

Is that it though? I mean, I get the appeal of torque but there's more to cars than a straight line pull.

No throttle lag, way more torque, quiet, silent, no loss of range and no CO2 while sitting in traffic jam…

ICE just feels intolerable after.

If you have had a Z06 (like the person posted) then you're familiar with big torque. (It has 650lbft) Similarly with any literbike in the last 10 years or what not... Just roll the throttle and you'll overtake anything in any gear.

I feel like the traffic jam stuff isn't about driving - that's about commuting.

I can't imagine being in a dead silent car all the time. It's not like they're dead silent anyway - you hear plenty of wind. I think the sound of tires squealing isn't a very appealing sound. So if that's almost all I'm ever going to hear while ripping up a road then I think I won't have as much fun.

Yeah, but you’re helping to get the world off of oil.

Feels different: instant response, linear torque curve all the way to the top. In a Model 3 Performance, unending gobs of power. No vibration, no heartbeat, just effortless electromagnetic whoosh.

To me the sound and vibration detract from the road. Let me hit the limits of visual stream processing without distraction, let me think when going slower. Also they waste most of the energy in gas.

> To me the sound and vibration detract from the road.

Yeah - I don't think I've ever heard anyone complain about that for enthusiast cars except maybe for a Viper ACR or other street legal race car...

I mean - half the appeal of getting something like a Hellcat is the sound itself.

I have driven the Model S, and while its fine, its not a car I could live with full time. I should have been more clear, by enthusiast I meant more along the lines of track-day enthusiast.

If I had room for 2 cars, then the Tesla would be a much more attractive option.

Great non-driving features.Not going to complain about Tesla making my car continuously better, but I was hoping to see, "Autopilot now does more".

Given the amount of time I end up spending sitting at a supercharger, it totally makes sense.

It’s strange they don’t highlight many of the driving improvements. AutoPilot has definitely improved, and particularly visualizations of the AP state-of-world are significantly richer.

They are presently testing red-light detection in shadow mode on the whole AP2/3 fleet, for example.

Use Smart Summon if you want to feel like Tony Stark.

With all the entertainment features they are releasing, they should cash in on the trend of home smart speakers / TVs.

Too bad the Tesla has been nerfed so bad it's useless / dangerous in Europe. ( because of regulation ).

hoping to see that upgrade that recognizes stop signs for full self driving soon!

I love the push buttons on my radio 1-10 for 10 channels. If i wanna change, i intuitive press the right button. I drive a Mercedes, i can skip through 20 channels on my steer-wheel, or use the touchscreen and go to radio and... Push buttons for me.

I love that hype video, Spotify is a god-send.

This may seem petty but it annoys me that after all this time I still can't make a hands free call to anyone that has more then one phone number in my address book.

Really? My wife has her mobile and work number on my phone contacts (iOS) and I can use the voice command to say:

"Call wife on mobile" or "Call wife on work" and it works.

I tested this on a 2016 Model X, 2015 Model S and 2019 Model 3.

What a bunch of odd features.

I really wish they offered a dumb car with the electrics but no screen.

> “Car-aoke”

Oh no.

Netflix in a car that doesn't yet have fully autonomous driving.

Perhaps not the greatest of ideas

Or maybe its while stationary only?

...to watch your favorite shows, movies and content right from your car while parked

Yes, it is only enabled while the car is parked.

I think it’s mostly for charging.

“YouTube, and Hulu or Hulu + Live TV accounts to watch your favorite shows, movies and content right from your car while parked.”

That's a bit of a shortsighted comment, since it only works while the car is parked...

It's supposed to entertain while charging. Same with the games.

I would not be surprised if a lot of people elected to watch shows in their parked car instead of their living room simply because of the fantastic audio system.

I don't have a surround sound system in my home, but I do in my Model 3! Looking forward to trying it out :)

So glad they've made it possible to watch Netflix and Youtube and play games on the screen. Those things are exactly what I'm looking for in a car operating system. After all, I can't do any of those with my phone.

So glad I can watch Netflix and Youtube and play games on my phone. After all I can't do any of those with my computer.

I am not always around my computer. I almost always have my phone around while in my car.

Is your phone 15"?

> Our new “Car-aoke” feature lets you sing your heart out with friends on a road trip – or by yourself.

Wait what.. you're encouraging drivers to look at the entertainment panel to read song lyrics? While they're driving?

https://electrek.co/2019/09/15/tesla-v10-first-look-release-...

> Tesla notes that while you can play the tracks while driving, the feature will only display the lyrics when the car is in park. That’s a bit of a shame for road trips with the family, but safety first.

No it doesn't work while driving.

The lyrics don't show up unless you are parked

It only works in park.

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