Hacker News Reader

Comment by tlarkworthy | Hacker News Reader

What is the relation? The table? (I.e. the tuples describing the rows). Or is it the joins? (In which case the article is correct). The columns?

View on HN

One way to think about it is with a mathematical relation, like 'X > Y'. A relational database relation representing this relation would consist of a header tuple, <X, Y>, and a set of tuples whose values satisfy the relation, such as <10, 2>, <8, 3>, <9, 4>. In more common terms, the rows of this table would contain pairs of numbers in which the value of the X attribute is greater than the value of the Y attribute. This table describes the relation(ship) of certain pairs of numbers.

"Each tuple in a relation represents an n-ary relationship...among a set of n values..., and the full set of tuples in a given relation represents the full set of such relationships that happen to exist at some given time--and, mathematically speaking, that's a relation."[1]

[1] Chris Date, Database in Depth, page 46

This points to the dual view of a relation - intensional vs extensional. The beauty of the relational model of data is the morphism: by evaluating relational operations on the extensional model (data) we gain can answer questions corresponding to intensional model (concept).

For example given the extensional data ALBUM(TITLE, ARTIST) corresponding to the intention "the albums, each with a title and artist", we can compute "the eponymous albums, each with a title" via EPONYMOUS_ALBUM = ALBUM where (TITLE = ARTIST)

We started with some data for a relation corresponding with a concept, and were able to operate on the data to produce a new relation - data corresponding to a new concept.

The relation is essentially all the rows in a given table. In relational algebra, a relation is a set of tuples of a fixed length. Each position in each tuple is associated with some attribute (essentially the name of the column) and each element in a given position is a value of a certain "data domain" (essentially a data type, like "integer").

The table is the relation. A join is just an operation that combines two relations to a superrelation.

A join in an intersection in relational algebra

Not necessarily, it can be a union too? Depends on the type of join.

A union is not a join at all - a union is a union. They're different concepts entirely.

Oh, wow.

I've been in the industry for over 20 years. I even worked on SQL Server Analysis Services for 5 years (up to 256-dimensional 'cubes' in the early 2000s)... and I never thought of joins in this way. Granted, MDX was a beast in its own right.

Cue discussion about self-taught vs college educations. I've got advantages being self-driven learner... but I've definitely missed out in some regards.

MDX isn't a relational language, though. It's a dimensional language.

The best short description I can give about MDX is that it's the language your pedantic uncle would come up with after falling in love with Ralph Kimball, when all he knew to base it on was SQL.

But the core operations in MDX operate upon hierarchical dimensions and facts that can be aggregated.

    SELECT ... FROM ... WHERE

has no inherent relational semantic. It is simply a syntax that has been standardized upon for interacting with relational database systems. It was also, coincidentally, chosen as the syntax for another language, MDX.

Funny enough, the successor to SSAS Multidimensional is SSAS Tabular, where the query language is DAX. DAX was designed with an explicit goal of looking like Excel's formula language, but it is in fact a relational language which is semantically very similar to SQL, despite looking nothing like it.

Isn't a full outer join a Descartes product? And thus any other join is just a special case where rows get selected/projected/filtered out?

The Cross join is a Cartesian product. Good read: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Join_(SQL)

The value in a table at a particular time is a relation, but so is the value of a view, the result of a subquery, the result of a select statement, and the value represented by the contents of a CSV file. In some API's this is called a row set.

It's essentially a table-shaped value. Conceptually it's immutable, and relational algebra is about calculating new values from old ones. A select statement does this too.

In a sense it reminds me of sentence structure. The table/relations is like the predicate and the rows contains all the subjects/objects that the predicate applies to.

A relation is a tuple (H, B) with H, the header, and B, the body, a set of tuples that all have the domain H.

As a non-mathematician I've always conceived of the relations among data as existing in the queries. In a SQL query the "relation" is specified by matching columns in the tables containing the data we're looking. Conceptually indexes, etc., are system implementation details.

That's certainly not a rigorous definition but helped me keep my head straight about what I was doing.

Reply on news.ycombinator.com