Psychological Effects of a 1-Month Meditation Retreat | Hacker News Reader

Psychological Effects of a 1-Month Meditation Retreat

ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

89 pointsidclip39 comments

Yeah, that study is pretty worthless but anecdotally, I have been to a similar retreat and even though it was only 10 days, it was totally worth it.

10 days of not talking to anyone, meditating everyday in a group, sleeping with a schedule, eating clean, being away from acquaintances, away from smartphones, social media or electronic distractions, away from shopping and ads, away from the soulless job and the crushing commute meant I could no longer ignore or drown out those thoughts in my head keeping me up at night and I had to consume them so they no longer haunt me.

The effects were long lasting, better than what I got from meditating at home with the aid of apps, but only if you commit to living a healthy lifestyle after. If you go back to eating junk and swiping on Instagram at 2 A.M, it's on you.

Would recommend you give it a try of you can.

What does that mean? I have been to a retreat or two, as my name implies, but I wouldn’t know what it means to consume one’s thoughts during a retreat.

It means accepting and letting go of stressful thoughts, insecurities which have been chronically keeping you up at night or worrying you unnecessarily.

That's the idea, sure. Is that also what happens in practice though?

I can easily imagine that if you're not being distracted on all sides constantly, those crippling insecurities and chronic stress all come into focus, because there's nothing else to think about.

For me, I started thinking in loops and got completely derailed. I became a bit manic, a bit depressed and a bit psychotic. There was also 2 hours of pure evil and 2 hours of equanimous love (which is awesome). I learned from these experiences that I am not my thoughts as I couldn’t identify with all of them, yet I kept thinking them. I also learned a lot about myself in general at the time. Ultimately, the whole experience was really educational. But at the same time, it was as crazy as a psychedelic trip yet much deeper.

But I don’t feel I experienced that I consumed my thoughts. If anything, I saw how I thought. I saw how I’m smart and how I’m crazy. And how being social keeps me sane since it breaks the loop.

My girlfriend went on a 10 day retreat earlier this year. She said that for much of the time there is literally nothing to do other than think. You are forced to acknowledge and confront the thoughts you have as a result of past experiences, which are easy to ignore and let fester when you have the distractions of daily life to keep your brain preoccupied.

During the retreat, there is regularly coaching on how to acknowledge these thoughts and feelings and let them go. So the idea behind these retreats is to give you the tools to deal with these thoughts and feelings and then put you in a situation where you are almost forced to confront them. That's what the parent commenter was referring to by "consuming".

My girlfriend had a fantastic experience and said that she is in a much better mental state than she was before.

Disclaimer: These are my thoughts as I understand it from secondhand experience. Definitely look more into yourself if it's something you want to learn more about.

Could you suggest a low cost option for meditation retreat? I'd really like to do one, but the idea of paying $1000 for what's supposed to be a no-frill, minimalist, anti-materialistic experience still trips me up. (As a reference, I rarely spend more than $500 for any kind of leisure trip.)

I understand that I'm being naive here, that "the Dharma is free but the light is not." Perhaps if cheap retreat is not an option, you can also reframe my thinking about the cost.

I'm sorry, but in my area in Europe, these retreats are for free. Well, donation based more exactly. At the end of the retreat you can donate as much as you feel like if it helped you.

I haven't done one, but a close friend has done Vipassana [1] a few times, which are free [2] in the USA. They run on donations and are 10 days of silence and meditation.

1. https://www.dhamma.org/en-US/courses/search

2. https://www.dhamma.org/en/about/qanda

edit -- added another link

That sounds like it was a Vipassana retreat, and they’re nearly always free (or donation based). They’ll encourage you to return to volunteer at a future retreat, but that’s about it for obligations.

All Vipassana courses are taught across the world for free, not just in the specific locales mentioned here. Putting a price on a priceless practice cheapens it, so they only allow old students of Vipassana to donate voluntarily.

as others have said there's many donation based retreats available.

I can also offer a rough line-item of where money goes, on retreat that have a sticker price:

1.) Cost. Many communities don't have their own retreat facilities and are thus basically booking room and board at a venue. Every venue has different amenities, costs, and profit models, but even a retreat site that operates at low margins as a gift, where retreatants share rooms and do substantial amounts of their own cooking and cleaning, even that is easily going to top $50 per person per day, while having a basically "resort-ish" experience where the group has single rooms and very little chores can approach $200 per day (in California).

2.) Back into the community who volunteered to organize it. There's probably 100-200+ labor hours behind every retreat, which is done in part so the teachings and practice can flourish, but is also motivated by the need to keep paying rent and other expenses on the community's primary practice and meeting space.

3.) To subsidize others. I think the teacher or leader of almost anything typically pays a reduced rate or nothing in recognition for their skill and leadership. Additionally it's not uncommon for part of the "profit" from retreats to be rolled into a scholarship funds for those whose ability to contribute is less than the bottom line costs, when the amount from donations doesn't match the need.

Also, Buddhism, and even more so mindfulness isn't necessarily concerned with conforming to our ideas of minimalist or anti-materialistic. While it's true that renunciation is often presented as part of the Buddhist path, retreats meet people where they are in their readiness to leave their comforts behind. A 5 - 14 day retreat might offer such comforts as the presence of a swimming pool or lounge furniture during break times so that people don't feel like they've joined monastic boot camp. There's many different things that get called "meditation retreat" and generally they're each well suited for different people at different times.

I like the swimming pool idea.

I'm a Zen student and we offer 1 week retreats for around $50 a day for non members. However we have very limited space, we prioritize members or past participants so we are not in general able to offer it to people we don't know. But rather than looking for a retreat, I would suggest looking for a local meditation center that offers retreats at a reasonable rate, and then go check out there weekly sitting. Also they way we can do that rate is we do our own cooking, cleaning, organizing etc. We do offer limited housing, but its generally like a sleeping mat in the meditation hall. Actually to be honest I think your better off not not even worrying about the the retreat, and just find a group to meditate with at first. I don't think it will be to hard to find a reasonably priced retreat if you are sitting with a meditation group. Probably somebody will be able to recommend somewhere they have actually gone themselves.

What are the logistics of the retreat in terms of how/where/what do you eat? Where/how do you sleep? Is it ok to stop meditating to go to the restroom?

Your post reads to me a lot like just getting away from everything in a setting where you couldn't be tempted otherwise was what you found beneficial.

Which is great, but makes me wonder if the meditation aspect isn't what's central to the experience.

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I do a good amount of solo backpacking (or with a long-term friend who can appreciate hours of silence as much as I can, instead of filling the time with constant conversation), and I feel I could write the same post as you from that experience, but it doesn't really involve anything I would label "meditation".

There's also "walking meditation" and just walking without calling it "meditation", as well. Think about what meditation is at it's core and you'll find it everywhere as a possibility.

> 10 days of not talking to anyone

This sounds like the opposite of all happiness research which seems to suggest that interacting face to face with people is the most strongly correltated activity to happiness.

Thoughts?

10 days of not interacting with anybody sounds perfectly blissful. I'd probably opt for doing it some place with a white sand beach, a buffet, a full bar, and a well-loaded kindle though...

Appearently most research says that many, even most people claim to want to not interact with anyone but when they actually test them they're happier when interacting.

This apparenrtly comes up in research on all the ways we've gotten rid of interaction. ATMs replaced bank tellers at the start and now you can order a coffee on your phone and walk in and pick it up all without talking to anyone. Most people love that but the research suggests they'd be happier if they interacted with the barrista and the teller. Yes I'm sure you can recall jerk tellers or barristas but on average they aren't jerks.

In other words their feeling that being able to interact with as few people as possible which they think will make them happier is actually having the opposite effect. This research includes introverts like myself. I love feeling self sufficient. I can go to a new city and basically talk to no one. I use Google Maps to find my way around. Buy train tickets online or tram tickets from kiosks, etc.. but apparently I'd be happier if I ask people how to get some place and sure I'm happy I can get tickets easier than waiting but that convience apparently needs to be replaced by interacting with more people not less.

Just a personal anecdote. I was born in a family of Theravada Buddhist parents. My late dad was an avid meditator. He'd go on week-long retreats to meditate at least a couple of times a year, and my mom also does similar. I tried meditating a little and gave up because I personally found that I am not able to stick to a routine (like meditate every day for 15 minutes). As I grow old, I became an atheist and read a lot of philosophy. I picked up stoicism and parts and pieces of everything I liked from reading. I use them to be self-aware and always try to see things as if they are impermanent. That really helps me calm down in stressful situations and be content with my life in a lot of ways. I do not meditate because I don't have the discipline, but I feel like I found my inner peace and live a pretty content, minimalist life.

I have a friend from home country who works in wall streets. She went to Princeton and is pretty high up there in management echelon. She has a fierce and competitive personality. She would always encourage me to go on meditation retreats in MA (Massachusetts), and she goes there pretty often. She also goes to a meditation group who meet near Times Square every few weeks. But you know what, I found her life to be miserable. She has had at least two mental breakdowns that I know of. She is always inquisitive of what I am doing, what job I have, how much I make at the moment whenever I see her. In my mind, I wanted to tell her, "Sister (a way of addressing someone older with respect in my culture), you're always stressed out and need meditation therapy because you are always worried about what/how others are doing. Meditation wouldn't help you much if you keep doing this." But of course, I don't want to spoil our friendship, so I never told her that.

I think I see a lot of meditation posts in HN because people here are chasing a lot of things at the same time. In other words, people here tend to be over-achievers and ambitious. I am not one, and I'm okay without meditation. I always try to take middle-path (that is the core of Buddhist teaching from my understanding) if I can; limit my wants and only try to fill my essential needs; try to always judge myself as a human (with needs/wants) first and then from a third person's point of view (to be self-aware so that I can control myself when I'm too upset/having a bad day); and in general, I just try to reduce as much "ah-ku-tho" (bad karma including greed, envy, anxiety, anger, etc.) as I can from my daily life.

Hope this lengthy post is interesting to some.

> But of course, I don't want to spoil our friendship, so I never told her that.

Maybe she needs to hear it. The key is to get her to ask herself questions, rather than telling. It's best done by suggestions and questions that prompts thoughts.

If you tell a hamster there is no point running so hard in the wheel, it will probably run harder.

You know, I might one day end up sharing her my perspective. I just need to phrase it in a nice, non-condescending way. Thank you for the encouragement.

I don’t get it. What did the control group do? Did they go on a retreat of some kind? Or did they just go on with their normal stressful lives of picking up at daycare, commuting through traffic jams and passive aggressiveness of laundry rooms?

I would like to see the effect of the meditation itself.

> The control group was asked not to participate in any retreat (even as short as a 1-day retreat) during the 1-month study period. Their usual daily meditation practice was maintained (40–50 min/session).

Oh, so this isn't even meditation vs. non-meditation... it's being in your day-to-day life vs. being away from it.

I'd like to see the long-term effects of a month-long meditation retreat vs. a month-long Carribean getaway, or something similar. I'm saying this as someone who appreciates meditation.

I know this is scientifically hard, but in spirit I would want to know the following:

Meditation vs do whatever makes you feel the happiest, as you see fit

It would be difficult to allow people to actually do what makes them happiest vs doing what the can do to make themselves happy within the limitations of their life situations.

Still the study is useful if your budget doesn't allow for an expensive holiday.

I wasn't able to find any reference to wealth or income, either. People who have the ability to do a one-month retreat end up with better mental health - is this surprising?

So big fucking surprise. Getting away from your life for a month is good for your mental health.

Why the fuck are people kicking in open doors being funded and published in what appears to be a decently respectable psychology journal?

Also all these studies focus only on Buddhist meditation which is just one form of meditation. There are earlier, more diverse and more intense forms of meditation (e.g. Hindu meditation) that many researchers unscientifically ignore due to their theological roots.

Almost all of these studies need better ablation experiments, similar alternatives, better controls and baselines.

“any of the mindfulness courses given by our group during the last 3 years”

This is exactly the kind of bias that makes a study questionable. Is there any good literature tracking such issues, or list of studies with such problems?

Studies like these are great for the popsci filter bubble, not so great for establishing credibility.

I'm biased and believe in contemplation as an overall life sustaining practice.

Lovely checklist: - controlled, non-randomized - small sample size - validation by industry standard made up surveys and scales named with stupid acronyms - super terrific vague conclusion: "A 1-month Vipassana meditation retreat seems to yield improvements in mindfulness, well-being, and personality, even in experienced meditators."

Imagine all the money and effort to get this published.

Earth to researchers: eating avocado toast in 108 seconds seems to yield improvements in mindfulness, well-being, and personality.

I plan on going to one in 2020, trying to make the arrangements as we speak.

20 person study of people who already practice meditation is pretty much worthless.

First of all I have to say that i despise calling something scientific work that is clearly way more subjective than mesaurable like science. For example question: does this engine spend less fuel than one before is clear way to show was that invention good or not, do you have better wellbeing after some treatment is completely open for placebo effect and can't be in same category. IMO meditation 'science' if it ever wants to be true science should concentrate on mesaurable mental qualities like IQ and memory. So true science question should be: how large is your IQ score before and after meditation retreat or how much you can remember things in 2 min before and after. Everything other is not science and is higly debatable. Honestly I'm quite suprised that engineers spend so much time on so unproved technique to increase quality of their work and life.

You are misinformed. The tools for measuring brain changes are getting better and more precise. We now have tools to measure brain activity, gray matter thickness, stress levels, and these reports are as good as measuring NO2 from engine exhaust. There's so much literature around this, it just knocks your karma if you spout ignorance just because you choose not to look.

”There is a common misperception in public and government domains that compelling clinical evidence exists for the broad and strong efficacy of mindfulness as a therapeutic intervention,” a group of 15 scholars wrote in a recent article entitled Mind the Hype. The reality is that mindfulness-based therapies have shown “a mixture of only moderate, low or no efficacy, depending on the disorder being treated,” the scholars wrote, citing a 2014 meta-analysis commissioned by the US Agency for Healthcare Research and Quality. Source:https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5758421/#!po=0....

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