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Comment by eumenides1 | Hacker News Reader

What I like about young people is their unapologetic way of asking for things whether they deserve it or not.

Sometimes, it's cute. "I'd like a day off" out of no-where. Sometimes, it's ridiculous. "I'd like a day off to go day drinking with my buddies" Sometimes, it makes me re-think what and why we do things. This is how we move forward. Case in point, "I'd like a day off. I need a mental health day because someone tried to break into my house last night and I'm freaked out"

Mental health days a total luxury, but if you think about it, there are days we need off because we are going to unproductive regardless. It can be abused, but it can also be useful. Context and Manager discretion matters.

Young People aren't going to save us from the office, but they are going to challenge our assumptions and it's our duty to listen and change the office as needed.

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As a former entitled young person (still entitled, but not so young anymore), I've made it a point never to ask for a day off. I will tell employers when I am taking a day off.

> asking for things whether they deserve it or not.

> Sometimes, it's cute. "I'd like a day off" out of no-where.

This is a troubling attitude, and I hope it's not what you meant. Does their compensation agreement include PTO? Then they "deserve" their day off. There is no other requirement. There is no explanation or justification needed. As an employer, you may request that I reschedule my PTO if there is an urgent business need, which I may or may not do if possible. But I've never understood the attitude that someone needs to come up with a reason to use the compensation they've rightfully earned. Would you hold their paycheck over their head and demand a reason why they should be allowed to spend it?

Sometimes company policy can get in the way of mental health days if you call them that. They will usually want to think of it as a sick day instead of PTO. While I know not every company does this, every company I've worked for requires a certain amount of notice for PTO which depends primarily on how much PTO you plan to take off. However when I use sick days I tell them I'm using a sick day and don't ask.

I consider someone lucky and fortunate if they have sick days in addition to PTO days, if either at all. Yes, American.

How does a “demand the day off” system work in a 24/7 work setting?

Hospitals are closed on Christmas? Hotels don’t clean or rent rooms on Jan 1? Planes don’t fly on Thanksgiving?

You coordinate with your coworkers and figure out who is willing to work when. The employer is responsible for providing sufficient compensation to make someone willing to work on those days. Not everyone celebrates Christmas or Thanksgiving or any particular holiday so having that day off may be less valuable to some than to others.

Who is doing the coordinating? What if too many people want off on a certain day?

My point is there doesn't exist a 24/7 business I know of that would be able to survive if they simply let employees "demand" days off. You can't rely on a bunch of coworkers to sort out who is working when. You request days off, a boss checks the schedule to see what can be moved around and whatnot, and then approves it.

I have yet to see a 24/7 business that works any other way.

I'm middle aged, a Gen X'er. I've always taken time off, on my schedule. "I'm taking this Friday off." No reason the Boss needs to be aware of, I won't be in the office. I'm sensitive to the calendar and deadlines.

"Sick. Not coming in today." This one should be obvious - is there some overriding concern that Boss wants to risk contaminating the entire office? I hope not...

This whole "asking for permission" thing bugs me. Sure, there might need to be a conversation if something in my personal life comes up and me taking tomorrow off to deal with it would impact an important meeting or a deadline. But anything in advance, and especially well in advance, is me courteously informing Boss that I won't be available to the company on that day/week/whatever.

Another GenXer here. My first meeting with my team's manager at my first job out of college, he was very clear: you don't need to ask for time off, you tell us when you'll be out, and you don't need to tell anyone or take any PTO if it's going to be for less than two hours. More people need to hear this, it seems.

I'm a middle aged manager with several brand-new grad hires. I try to be open, accommodating and flexible; it does not work. They are one of:

1. confused and frustrated without a (rather strict) set of baseline rules to guide them,

2. push to the boundaries of my flexibility to see how much they can get away with (not unlike my pre-teen kids)

3. Totally oblivious/naive about what is acceptable in the broader corporate-esque working world - Example: Will the company buy me a laptop [to attend a one day bootcamp]?

I guess it makes me a crusty old fart, but I have no interest in advancing this style of work management and will be long gone before I'm forced to accept this new world

I don't really want to have a debate about this on HN, but I do have some points of curiosity:

What kinds of work are you hiring for? Are these young/newly minted CS grads looking for SW jobs?

If they're new grads, they're gonna push boundaries - academia is so different from the workforce. The naivety I'm sure is just inexperience. Acting like a mentor instead of a Corporate Suit can rectify their expectations.

P.S. On equipment purchases: my last three companies provided laptops as daily workstations (is this uncommon?) - they went home every night (yay business continuity policy), came to the office every morning. And traveled to conferences and bootcamps as needed. If your company is providing desktops, I think it comes down to whether this one-day bootcamp business is a personal enrichment exercise (at the employee's expense) or whether the company is compelling attendance. Obviously in the first case, the employee should be using their own hardware - in this case, maybe it's a bit entitled to expect a hardware purchase for the event.

I get that some types of teams have to coordinate coverage. But, yeah, I’ve always tried to be aware of what looked to be better and worse times over the next 6-12 months and just made time off plans accordingly. This is over the course of about 40 years.

This comment took me by surprise. Taking a day off "out of nowhere" - cute? Using your vacation day to drink with your friends (or insert literally anything) - ridiculous? I don't think you're trying to disparage the concept of days off being used for casual things, but your tone makes it seem like you're so used to an environment that does that you take such a tyrannical sentiment for granted.

I would assume most people on hn are American and with employers and a culture that is very anti holiday.

I routinely take PTO for 'mental health days' and have for many years. No, the company I work for doesn't need to know that; just that I need the day off. I am a very firm believer in taking these days off of 'doing nothing' help prevent my own burn out. Highly recommend for others in the office life. Just take a day off with no responsibilities and nothing planned. Relax, sleep in, enjoy it.

Oh i would love to.. but i would get swamped by work from family side...

Take a day off from work, but don't say anything to the family and just take a rest for the day?

I've never turned down a request for PTO from someone who had some, including at a company with "unlimited" vacation. I don't see why my priorities about what one should do with their free time should apply to others. And if it were ever a problem that a person wasn't fulfilling their role adequately, it doesn't really matter why as long as we can get on a remediation plan.

PTO is purely discretionary; I've never turned down a request.

Lately I've been dealing with a lot of "can I work remote while I go visit my girlfriend for a week" or "I need an entire sick day to go to the chiropractor"... it gets old because my more senior devs do not make life so painful.

Does your company not allow remote? The first request sounds entirely reasonable unless they really mean pretending to work.

That's sounds pretty reasonable as long as they get their work done? Someone on my team went remote for a quarter for personal reasons and this was at a giant 40 year old company.

all of that sounds reasonable?

what's not reasonable about working remotely? I mean as long as the work is done an they are available in their normal hours?

Same thing about doctor visit - it is their sick day, they can decide what they want to use it on.

> what's not reasonable about working remotely?

security.

You are going around with company secret data.

You are moving them outside of the company network, which is heavily controlled.

Not all businesses thinks it's ok to put data on Amazon S3.

Don't get me wrong, I agree with you, but they have their reason, the most important of them is "things have worked until now because we do the things as we do them, what if we change and things don't work anymore"?

Fear of change is a real thing in big established businesses.

That would only make sense if people were primarily using desktops, which really is not the case except for high end workstation needs like video production.

Every company I've worked for, people are using laptops and bringing them home at night, so I am very skeptical that this is the reason.

Older people are just less honest with their employer, they don't actually take off less time in my experience. Perhaps there's also a thing we younger folks could learn from their experience.

Less honest? No. Less forthcoming might be a better way to say it. I tell my supervisor I'm taking time off and never say why. I might tell her I'll be reachable if there's something urgent; but, that's it.

Tomato / Potato :)

"I'd like a day off because we have a PTO bank of days that we're all free to use as long as we give enough notice"

At my current team you are not expected to show in the office as long as you are delivering results. You can take entire week off if you want. We have weekly in-person sync ups, makeshift scrum teams that form and break on a weekly basis, and people are usually on slack 24/7 sometimes working at evenings or weekends if they feel like it.

Fwiw I'm probably working more then I usually would at 9 to 5 workplace, but realisation that the company is treating me like a grown up adult makes me happy. I can't imagine being back to my previous corporate work environment, even the thought of it fills me with dread.

That is a great point. As a Gen 'X', it is still very hard for me to ask for anything. Young people don't seem to have that problem. We should definitely learn from them.

> asking for things whether they deserve it or not. > Sometimes, it's ridiculous. "I'd like a day off to go day drinking with my buddies"

Why wouldn't a young person (or any person, for that matter) deserve something, like a day off? My time off is my time off, if I want to use it to go on a wholesome family vacation, or a 3 day bender, it doesn't really matter.

why on earth wouldn't you grant someone a PTO? Seriously, like it's part of the employment agreement. And, usually, there aren't enough PTO days in there anyways.

Or maybe just move to a country where workers have rights?

In Europe you'll find a lot of them, you don't have to ask, you have the right to it.

For example: I have 28 holidays, 8 hours of payed leaves a month (you can't use more than 4 hours at a time), sick leave up to 6 continuos month, after that they start cutting your salary but you can't loose your job and they have to keep it for you up to 36 months. You go back one day and the counter resets.

And that's for everybody having a full time contract, is not something special for high paid management (on the contrary, usually managers have way higher salaries, but less guarantees)

> "I'd like a day off to go day drinking with my buddies"

Why is this ridiculous?

This seems like a very honest way to ask. They're just trying to take a day off to have some fun and relax (which is perfectly reasonable). But they're not making up an excuse about being sick, or having a family obligations, they are being clear that it's a low priority bit of fun giving their Boss a chance to say something like "We're going to be swamped today/then, how about Monday when we'll be slow?" I wish more employees/employers could embrace this level of mature honesty.

Go drink in the evening when the company isn’t operating

Edit: so sensitive! I guess I’m the only person here that gets PTO :)

Can't drink all day if you don't start in the morning.

You don't understand the dynamics of proper day drinking. If you drink early you get your hangover in the evening, then have a good sleep and a hangover free day after. Day drinking properly done has definitely its benefits - even for the company.

Why? Why is the company's operation more important than my friends? And why is that company so incompetent I can't take a (contractually agreed upon) day off without endangering its operation?

You're not my manager

..thankfully.

Better get off HN, worker-bee. Your company is trying to operate, and you're not contributing!

I’m happily taking PTO and not running my personal life by my manager for permission to drink.

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