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Comment by headcanon | Hacker News Reader

I realize California is very expensive cost-of-living compared to the Midwest, but as a developer in Michigan I'm shaking my head at these salaries. The low end in Cali is high end here. Best I could hope for in Michigan even as senior is mid-100's. the highest number I've ever seen thrown around from recruiters was about $170k base, and pretty sure that was close to VP level. Can't complain about the low housing costs though.

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Things have gotten crazy here but this information is useful even for experienced hires. A few years ago, I did not realize that new grads at companies were being paid more than I was! I switched companies to fix that.

Yes, most of my check still goes towards rent but at least I have a little bit more left over to plan for the future.

> A few years ago, I did not realize that new grads at companies were being paid more than I was! I switched companies to fix that.

To everyone chiming in with how wild the salaries are, this is really the point. If you're doing competent work for less than the local market average, you're paying your company for the "opportunity" to keep working with them. Sometimes that's the right call for both parties. Most times it's not, and OP's transparency helps workers protect themselves from exploitation.

The difference is whether your company produces software as a product or uses software for a product. In the later case, you are working in a typical IT department which is just supporting the main ship, important but only as essential as other non-IT departments and often strapped of budgets for cost savings. The main ship itself has a very different culture, typically not very ambitious growth or revenue expectations. So comps are not really comparable in these two worlds.

Definitely - I've always chosen companies where I would be working on the money-making product, not in a cost center. Cost-center software devs around here in enterprise-land are lucky to break $100k.

>was about $170k base, and pretty sure that was close to VP level

You have to keep in mind that these are salaries for the largest tech companies in the world, it's not just about being in California.

For comparison, being a VP at Google/Facebook equates to salaries with multi-million dollar bonuses and ridiculous equity packages.

$170k is top-end for base salary at most tech companies, though--past that point the increases in total comp are all from stocks and bonuses, which are tied to your performance review.

And yeah, a $200K house in Michigan is probably about a $2M house in the Bay Area.

No it's not. You're comparing State to City. A $2M house in Bay Area is a $700k house in Detroit Metro area.

I'd believe the parent, but have a different example. The difference between Toronto or Vancouver and Winnipeg. Vancouver you're looking at 1.5m at the low end and 300k in A Winnipeg for a nice one level. $600k in Van for a 1 bdr condo in the suburbs. Not to say I'd take the trade, but comparison is crazy

I'm not sure where you're getting that notion? Maybe if you're comparing a $2M home in east bay?

In the peninsula, a $2M home just gets you a decent neighborhood. The home itself is meh. House I'm in has never been updated and is from the 1930's. It's about $1.7m. 1000sqft with 400sqft in-law unit. 4000sqft lot.

https://www.zillow.com/homedetails/2833-Tramanto-Dr-San-Carl... (San Carlos - under the radar suburb in the bay area)

https://www.zillow.com/homedetails/811-Longfellow-St-Detroit... (Second most expensive home between 2k-2.7k square feet in detroit)

https://www.realtor.com/realestateandhomes-detail/1683-Newco...

5 bed, 6 bath, 2900sq ft. $1.6 mil recently renovated, all around, with a private backyard. 1683 Newcomb Ave, San Francisco, CA 94124

It's a rental property. It was built up to maximize profitability in flipping.

It was burned down or something some years back. Previous owners probably took the cash from it going down, sold the rest, moved away, and then someone bought it, rebuilt it, and made a shit load. https://www.google.com/maps/place/1683+Newcomb+Ave,+San+Fran...

No one would own it to live in now. The neighborhood is not good and is why it's priced accordingly. It's an investment/rental property.

Also, Bay Area homes in expensive areas (PA, SF, Berkely, etc) tend to sell for far over their list price. I wouldn’t be surprised at all if this particular listing went for $1MM over list.

That is not the top end. Many senior engineers make north of 200k cash salary at non-FAANG corps in the bay area, and of course FAANG engineers are in that ballpark too.

I'm in Michigan, I didn't even know seniors can hit mid 100's? really? Where?

In Ann Arbor, this is definitely possible. I would be surprised if Senior Software Engineers at Duo were not making mid-100's.

pretty much all the recruiters that have hit me up for senior dev positions in SE Michigan have thrown out $125-175 or so, and the salary websites I've looked up have estimated similar amounts for > 5y experience at senior level. Above $140 or so you'll have to hustle a bit and negotiate though, most likely.

I more than tripled my total comp in three years by leaving Dallas for NYC.

Google and Amazon are in Austin and maybe Dallas, and pay pretty well.

Google wasn't in Austin when I left three years ago, and Amazon was fairly small. I can't comment on what the market in Dallas looks like now.

Google has had a pretty sizable office (three offices, actually) in Austin since 2012 at least.

When I was looking they had no software engineering to speak of in Austin. It was all sales and ops.

Ah yes that's true, it was (and still is AFAIK) a huge chunk of sales, admin staff, and now consultants.

You probably tripled your living costs and taxes too. I also moved from Dallas to NYC, so can't argue, but it's not apples to apples.

Luckily the gains from tripling compensation usually far outstrip the losses from tripling living costs and taxes.

Yeah... there's so many obvious counterpoints to everyone's knee-jerk "well you also upped your living costs!" reaction.

Number 1 is relevant for many many people: Any pre-existing loan. Student loans, car loans, etc. It won't change, and you'll have more money to pay it off.

On the same thought train, while cars sell for different prices in different places, they do not double or triple. Not even close.

> You probably tripled your living costs and taxes too.

Even if entirely true (which is not immediately clear - does the car or phone or laptop cost triple in NYC?), that is by itself a great deal.

1. The living costs of NYC are not triple what they are in Dallas (obviously there is some choice to this), but triple is grossly exaggerating the difference.

2. Even if triple was correct, since the living expenses are not 100% of your pay in either case - you're still better off living in NYC in terms of savings - I hope you can do the math to see this.

For the same overall quality of living conditions and environment, the living costs of NYC are certainly over double and probably close to triple of Dallas. If you are comparing "nice Dallas" with "distant Queens" then maybe you are right, but that's not the comparison most are thinking of.

The rent might triple but almost everything else is either the same cost or only moderately more expensive. If you want to buy a Tesla or an iPhone or pop over to Prague on vacation that’s not going to be cheaper in Dallas. Some stuff like eating out will be more expensive, but not 3x more. Your total living expenses won’t go up 3x.

And if your living costs are 100% of your net income then you’re doing something wrong. For most people, this move will still result in 3x savings which means either earlier retirement or more money in retirement.

Not really. I live in New Jersey, and just bought a house of comparable size to the one we had in Dallas for about 2x what we sold the Dallas house for. Other cost changes were, on average, flat if restricted to NJ. Doing things in Manhattan is certainly more expensive, but also not a daily occurrence.

As far as taxes are concerned, they're higher, but in both places state and local taxes were a pretty small percentage of our outlay anyway. It's a bit hard to compare because the state income tax and higher property taxes are offset by lower sales tax (with broader exemptions) and less direct-billed government services.

As a native Dallas-ite, who moved to Denver.... there is much more to compare for getting the heck out of concrete-strip-mall-culture-void Dallas than cash. Denver? Pay is ok'ish, but the mountain biking is amazing!

Edit: However, the people in Dallas are the nicest I've met. Really miss southern hospitality compared to here, where everyone thinks I'm hitting on them for being so outgoing...

170k base is high. Ive seen 3/4 million salaries with bases that didn't get over 200.

Stock and signing/perf bonus accounts for anything over 130 or so for a new grad.

Amazon has an office in Detroit with 100s of SDEs.

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