Simply trotting out old tired Russophobia doesn't prove that pervasive surveillance has been good for the American people, it just shows your own bias. You're turning a blind eye to the wrongs done by the US government, some of them much worse than pervasive surveillance.
What harm do you claim the NSA did to Americans in that time? Their mandate is foreign surveillance, and while citizens do get caught in their net (especially with foreign contacts), it's not their focus.
I can think of a couple, but they seem relatively limited?
a) Surveillance revealing domestic crimes that were prosecuted through parallel construction.
b) American businesses benefiting from NSA intelligence gathering, through politicians passing along information.
The GP did not say "NSA", but "US government". See for example:
I haven't mentioned my qualms about the NSA up to this point, but since you asked: I object to spending $10.8 billion in 2013[1]. I object to the fact that they have so little oversight, the public had to find out what their funding is from a leak[1]. I object to the fact that this spending resulted in only 4 arrests they will tell us about over a period of years[2] which are all fairly questionable[3]. I object to their continued violation of the constitutional right to privacy of almost every American.[4] I object to them undermining encryption standards[5] which weakens the security of people and companies everywhere.
[1] https://www.nytimes.com/2013/08/30/us/politics/leaked-docume...
[2] https://www.ibtimes.com/four-times-nsa-surveillance-programs...
[3] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20944055
[4] https://www.eff.org/702-spying
[5] https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/nsa-nist-encrypti...
is a big backtrack from
> There's a strong argument to be made that the US government did more harm to US citizens during the Cold War than the Soviets ever did
Do you have an actual evidence-based opinion, or are you just trying to catch me in weird gotchas? I'm sure I've said something slightly incorrect you can track down, but that doesn't really negate the evidence I've linked.
I wouldn't say nothing. At the very least, they made sure that Russia wasn't planning to fire any nukes at us.
Many of the mkultra experiments are a good example: the US government drove a bunch of US citizens insane for projects which ultimately resulted in no useable weaponry.
My point being: simply waving your hands and saying "the cold war!" isn't a valid defense of US government organizations.
> “Without the 702 tool, we would not have identified Najibullah Zazi,” Joyce said later in the hearing.
Okay, sounds pretty legit. His plea bargain was partly informed by threatening his parents[1], but it does sound like there was a lot of other evidence collected through traditional police methods.
> The second instance described was a thwarted plot to bomb the New York Stock Exchange. Under Section 702's authority, the NSA monitored a known extremist in Yemen who was communicating with a man in Kansas City, Mo. This information led the FBI to Khalid Ouazzani, his co-conspirators and ultimately the plot to bomb the NYSE. Ouazzani ultimately confessed to sending money to al-Qaeda and was never convicted for the stock exchange plot.
Okay, so we... removed a small funding source of Al Queda? Maybe it's just me, but if I were trying to attack Al Queda's funding, I'd start with not having the CIA give them millions of dollars[2] before going the "surveil all Americans" route. For comparison, the CIA gave them $2 million in one payment[2], while Ouazzani gave them $23K[3]. The NSA yearly budget is ~$10 billion.[4] The NYC police budget was $5.6 billion in 2018[5] and they handled 295 homicide cases in 2018[6].
> The third instance cited by Joyce was the case of David Headley, an American in Chicago who aided the 2008 Mumbai terrorist attacks. The FBI had received a tip about his involvement in the attacks when the NSA’s 702 surveillance also identified Headley as involved in a plot to bomb a Danish newspaper office that had published cartoons of the Prophet Mohamed that were considered offensive by some Muslims. “Headley later confessed to personally conducting surveillance of the Danish newspaper office,” Joyce said.
So basically, this guy was already going to be arrested for the 2008 Mumbai Terrorist Attacks, but due to surveillance they were able to also charge him for... surveiling. The irony is staggering.
> Regarding the final case, Joyce testified that data collection under Section 215 helped uncover terrorist activity that the FBI had been unable to detect previously. In 2007, the FBI closed an investigation it had launched shortly after Sept. 11, when it could not connect the subject of the investigation to terrorist activity. Years later, under its Section 215-sanctioned metadata collection program, the NSA identified a phone number in San Diego that was in contact with a known terrorist overseas. The NSA’s discovery allowed the FBI to reopen the investigation and disrupt the terrorist activity. Joyce later confirmed that the activity involved providing financial support to a designated terrorist group overseas.
This could not possibly be more vague.
Ostensibly, since the source is the NSA's PR team, these were the best cases the NSA could come up with? This sounds like a strong argument that the money should be better spent on traditional law enforcement.
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Najibullah_Zazi#Guilty_plea
[2] https://www.nytimes.com/2015/03/15/world/asia/cia-funds-foun...
[3] https://archives.fbi.gov/archives/kansascity/press-releases/...
[4] https://threatpost.com/nsa-metadata-program-likely-not-cost-...
[5] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_York_City_Police_Departmen...
[6] [Excel File Warning] https://www1.nyc.gov/assets/nypd/downloads/excel/analysis_an...
It's common knowledge that NSA dragnet surveillance recorded the phone calls and captured the metadata of almost every American for a few years, and probably still is. This, I would argue, we can agree upon without having to present evidence.
If you're going to argue that this violation of human rights was necessary, the burden of proof is on you to prove this extraordinary claim.