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>I remember one day, there was a 40-something years old man, that came in with an iPhone X and switched it for an XS, adding 500 euros. Only to return 1 week later to switch the XS for an XR with better storage, adding 250 euros. Only to return 2 weeks later, to switch the XR for an XSmax adding 400 euros more or less. This gentleman was so brainwashed into FOMO by Apple that threw 1000+ euros out of the window.

Sounds like quite orthogonal to Apple, and relevant to personal issues the single anecdotal example person had, overcompensating by constantly buying gadgets, etc...

There are tons of people with 2, 3, 4, 6+ year old Macs, iPhones, and iPads (my iPad is from 2014 or so and works just fine)...

Yes, what you said is completely true. I am not saying that Apple is evil, I personally own Apple products and I think they're great (but overpriced). I just wanted to point out the length some people go just to have Apple in their pockets. Apple is not evil, but they know what they're doing, and they know that the prestige of their products is used by people to try and neutralize the sense of worthlessness they feel inside. This manipulation is even more evident now that they are selling phones that are almost identical to the previous generation, bring nothing substantially new to the table, if not new smokes and mirrors. I'm sure that in their headquarters, they now spend less and less time innovating and more and more time refining their selling skills.

And you are also a founder of a fashion company which is even more about selling a temporary sense of worth than what Apple does.

How can you criticize Apple when you are doing the same thing?

Did you really resort to scavenging OP's online presence in an attempt to discredit his anecdote against Apple?

To me this behavior reinforces OP's point.

I didn’t resort to scavenging anything. I just looked at his HN profile. Why have profiles if not for us to look at them?

I honestly expected to see him engaged in something that was against the kind of preying on insecurity he claims Apple is doing, and was curious to see what it was because I want to see examples of marketing that doesn’t do this.

I was genuinely surprised to see what business he was in, and find it bizarrely hypocritical of him, since he is doing exactly what he accuses Apple of doing.

Can you explain how this reinforces his point?

You should try working at a car dealership. People do this with brand new vehicles, just multiply the euros by 20!

Applying just now ;)

Right on, it sounds like the customer here was hooked on the unboxing experience or something like that, or was seeking out a distraction from life.

Probably so.

Apple stuff lasts, this is not an Apple issue, any of those phones would have been good for several years. I'm only my 3rd iPhone in 9 years (soon to replace it though). Also 3rd iPad in 9 years. My Macbook Air is from 2012. Apple do software updates going quite far back. A lot of Apple's hardware looks exactly the same from generation to generation, so even if you updated, how would anyone know? If customers want to chop and change that's on them, Apple is not forcing it really.

What you said it totally true. But to say that Apple is not forcing is a white lie. It's true that they're not pointing guns at us, but they are smoothly pointing us in that direction. There's a psychological pressure to have the latest tech, otherwise not only your phone, but also you yourself, are outdated and uncool. No kind of manipulation was ever forceful. That's what makes it a manipulation. You think you're doing it, but another person/company slowly brought you to do it. A lot of people are intelligent and strong enough to resist this brainwash, but a lot of others are not.

Blaming Apple for the general human desire to demonstrate status to one another seems like a bit much, and IMO grants them a level of implied power over society that they haven’t earned.

I mean... is your theory that if Apple didn’t exist, people wouldn’t buy things to look cool?

> A lot of people are intelligent and strong enough to resist this brainwash, but a lot of others are not.

Speaking of signaling status... somehow comments like this are always posted by folks who sort themselves into the first category.

Maybe people buy things you don’t want to buy just because they like them, not because they’re too dumb to resist “brainwashing.”

> Speaking of signaling status... somehow comments like this are always posted by folks who sort themselves into the first category.

I mean, I can't think of a person who'd be aware enough of it and be willing to state this as a member of the second category?

Which makes it hard to distinguish between a real phenomenon, and a rationalization that people employ to frame their consumer choices as superior to others'.

Baffling the more vulnerable customers with bullshit to sell them expensive things is hardly a phenomenon isolated to Apple or even to the United States. That's a proud cornerstone of Capitalism.

One could argue a whole lot of highly valued startups are built on the premise of selling conveniences to people with far too much money and not enough sense.

Agreed.

US = Apple = Capitalism

I'm sorry if I came off as a virtue signaler. No I'm not blaming Apple, and of course people would buy cool things to look cool even without them. What I'm saying is that Apple is especially good at applying pressure in right spots: as you said, the human desire for status and fear of being left behind. Some still haven't recognized it and I've seen countless people make poor financial decisions because of their blindness to what is moving them to buy. Maybe I should have used "aware" instead of "intelligent", since intelligent people can fall for it too. Of course I'm generalizing and as you said, people also buy Apple just because they like it and can afford it, I did that too. But too many times I've seen people really torn and staying there thinking to themselves for half an hour if they should buy it or not, because they know they shouldn't. If you just like a thing, but you know that buying it will have very bad financial consequences for you for the next 10-20 months, it's not difficult to resist. So the fact that all these people were buying anyways, makes me come to the conclusion that there were more powerful internal forces moving them, then just "liking Apple".

>There's a psychological pressure to have the latest tech

You mean marketing? What company isn't doing that?

Yes, but not only. Please read my other responses.

The phones from 2012 would still be perfectly functional if the software didn't come with increasingly ridiculous performance requirements. What's the reason for the upgrade? Camera?

With the ability to easily swap batteries, and more efficiently written software, nobody would have to really update their phones. Which is why I guess most batteries are now integrated.

It's a terribly waste just for corporate profits and peoples vanity's sake.

You can have the batteries swapped out though. I had the battery on my 6S replaced twice. The first time I got it for free because of the degraded performance issue and even the second time was very well priced ($60??) and have the phone a new wind. However, now the power connector had become very loose and disconnects randomly when moved wrong. I probably could have that fixed as well for cheap, but want the new camera. On my recent vacation I took almost no photos because I wanted my wife to take all the good shots with her XR Max. I'm on the fence though because I use ApplePay a lot and cannot imagine using that with FaceId and I also am somewhat attached to the audio jack. I don't want to carry headphones for my phone and another set for my Switch when on a long trip.

Pro tip: 95% of the problems with the power connectors are due to dust trapped inside the charge hole. Yes, there is a lot of dust in there, even if you can't see it. No worries though. You can solve that problem in 2 minutes. Here's how: 1 take a clip, or something similar (thin and rigid) and use it to dig out the dust from the connector hole in your phone 2 be surprised at how much dust you actually find 3 keep digging out the dust 4 your phone is as new! Try charging it and you will see that it won't disconnect randomly anymore. Hope it helps :) p.s: We charge 10-15 euros for that in the store, and obviously don't tell how easily we got it fixed to the customer. I know, it's funny and infuriating.

I wouldn't recommend digging inside the power connector with a metal clip.

A spurt of canned air followed by digging with a toothpick wrapped in cotton and damped with ethyl alcohol does magic.

Apple says the canned air can damage the connector. I can confirm toothpick + cotton does the trick, though.

When I had problem with charging on my iPhone 6 I've went to Apple Store with that and "genius" at Apple Store literally told me to use SIM removal tool to dig it out and then he proceed to do it on my phone as I watched. Pins are only on one side so as long as you be careful and not bend them you will be fine.

Wow, thanks! I used a can of air, almost no dust at all came out, but it's fixed. So silly! Thank you very much! Now I'm likely gonna hold off for another year with upgrading from my 6S.

Huh I'm still on my first battery and it's decent but I have that same issue with the lightning connector so I'm also considering upgrading

Do you have AirPods ? or have you considered buying them ? I'm also on the fence about that Face ID stuff

I don't have air pots. I've been thinking about buying them since a long time, but I really don't have a good reason to other than that it's new and shiny. At least when traveling I'd still have to carry my current earphones for both my Switch and to connect to the airplane's entertainment system. I'd rather have fewer things I can lose or forget it simply have to find a place for. It's not a problem in everyday life, but I'm on airplanes a fair amount and the is never a good place for stuff like this.

> What's the reason for the upgrade? Camera?

I’m convinced that the camera quality degrades as the phone gets older/more used. What convinced me was my mom receiving a brand new 6S replacement from Apple and seeing the major camera improvement even though her broken 6S was in mint condition.

Can anyone provide some insight to this? It took years of speculation for us to learn our slower OS/battery concerns were real. I’m wondering if this is next.

Pretty sure it would have to be software if it happens at all. I don't believe the sensors in the camera degrade or wear out.

Lens scratching over time?

This certainly happens on older iPhones. People also get grease on it and it’s hard to remove. The new(ish) sapphire front elements make scratches much better.

My 5s took enough spills that I think some small opening in the case let lots of dust/sand get under then lens. The OG battery was losing sectors left and right too. Probably fixable, but I went with a new phone anyway, 5.5 years on a phone was long enough...

So, basically you replace your phone every two years. That's the rhythm that Apple and cell providers generally aim for (time for new housing design and length of contract). What other expensive item are you replacing as frequently?

The 2016+ 15" Macbook Pro is at least one very clear exception. Mine has had keyboard (which includes logic board) replaced several times. Screen replaced 3 times. Brand new replacement unit once. Now getting intermittent black screens every 5 mins or so. I paid for an Apple but I got a lemon.

I think it's unfair to place the blame entirely on consumers when Apple capitalizes on a culture which places value on having the latest gadgets and gizmos.

Typical consumerism. I have siblings who did the same for a fancy bed. These people are mostly helpless. And you're only an employee.. I'm sure it's not great to try to turn a customer away from a sale right ? Even as a sibling, unless I'm ready to start a family war there's no leverage.

ps: the 40yo man might have sold or made use of the other iPhone. I hope he did not just pile them up in a drawer.

For me personally, working there was a perpetual moral internal debate. I was good at convincing people that were on the edge of buying. On one hand, the more you sell, the higher the commission you get, for you and the whole team. On the other hand, you have to sell tech that is one of the best, but for the time being, totally overpriced. Therefore, you have to manipulate a lot, and tell half-truths if not blatant lies at times, which is not great either. This becomes much harder when you have to manipulate a person, that is clearly struggling in their decision because of financial reasons, into buying a phone priced 1000+ euros. On the inside, I was always screaming "what in the world are you doing!" The way I operated was this: when a manager was nearby me, I had to act the part, but when I was alone I tried, in a not so explicit way, to clear the fog in their brain and make them get back some reason in their heads. I prefer being able to sleep at night, instead of getting a few more bucks in my check. To be clear, I like Apple products, and I personally own them ,because I was able to get them used (but brand new) with huge discounts in price, but they are not for everyone. About the 40yo man, he gave us back his phone each time. The way it works is this: if you bring back a phone, you get an evaluation which is at best (even in perfect condition, got out of the box just a week earlier) half of the initial price tag. You can get a new phone, give back your old one and pay the difference.

oh bad deal for the 40yo man then..

I applaud your approach to sales, very empathetic. Are you still working there ?

Thank you. But any person with morals would do the same. No, I worked there for a few months. After a while they reached out to get me back there, but I declined.

Now you're selling altcoins to old people right ?

Of course! I thought there was no need to say ;)

He should have returned sooner, within two weeks you can return or exchange it for free can't you?

Once you open the plastic outside the box (not even the box itself) you can't return it for free, it might have been compromised in some way. Its value is automatically cut in half in the store's eyes.

You can even turn it on, try it and then return it before 2 weeks for free in EU

Mmm that was not our policy. I worked in Italy, so maybe there are different rules for different countries. But something like trying it out for 2 weeks, then coming back and getting a refund or switching it (for example for a different color) was never ever allowed.

I forgot to add that it is only for online purchasing (the only kind of purchasing I do for 10 years at least). It's 14 days minimum set by EU regulation. The item should not be used, but you're allowed to try, verify that it works, return it if you don't like it (no explanation at all needed), etc.

This is, as far as I know, only possible if you bought it online.

You're right. Here I shop only online, I haven't been in a store (other than grocery store) for at least 5 years. When I buy something online, they deliver it same day to my doorstep, so why would I not. You can (for a small fee) use their service to pick up returned items (or return them yourself at their service center with no charge)

Physical Apple Store purchases too - https://www.apple.com/legal/sales-support/sales-policies/ret...

Apple integrates their online store with their B&M locations so closely it really wouldn't make any sense for them to have different return policies.

30 days in NL

I see you said you were in Italy, but just to be clear, in the US I have returned an iPhone bought in-store, nearly two weeks later, for a full refund.

Really? That's interesting. Good for you then :)

I read you work in Italy Apple Store, and this is the first time I hear Apple Store has commission.

Does anyone know any other region where Apple Store operate with commission, one of the things John Gruber likes to pride Apple are their employees don't have commission and therefore could give candid advice.

Or did All Apple Store has commission now since Burberry Queen took over?

"This gentleman was so brainwashed into FOMO by Apple that threw 1000+ euros out of the window"

for some people, a dinner out costs $2k.

that is why you should never judge your clients.

same thing for the other gentleman.

you don't know their stories, or their backgrounds.

I know that nobody should be stretching themselves financially thin for a newer iPhone. Unless it’s something like an app developer needing to buy a test phone, which this clearly wasn’t.

How do you know he was stretching himself financially? Perhaps he was rich and 1000 euros was not much money to him.

He signed up to a 20 month payment plan?

The 20 month person was a different guy

That's another guy. There are 2 person in the story. The first one throw money out of the window. The second one is the one struggling for money and need the payment plan.

Those were two different people.

> I know that nobody should be stretching themselves financially thin for a newer iPhone.

I think people are free to do whatever they want with their money. Is my view an extreme one nowadays?

Sure, I think that he should have the literal freedom to do so, but that does not excuse him or Apple from being roundly criticized and berated for it. Like freedom of speech, your right to say something doesn’t make that thing right.

I knew/know this person personally. We all knew him because he was an habitual client. He is working as a professor in high school. So the probability of him being so wealthy to change one iPhone per week are not that high. That said, even if he is, do you think that his behavior would be consider sane? His story is just to point out how the sense of worthlessness in some people is financially exploited by prestigious brand like Apple.

> That said, even if he is, do you think that his behavior would be consider sane?

I think your prejudices see him as some sort of insane man. When, as I've written above, there are people who spend a lot of cash indiscriminately. Not all of us have to be financially careful.

> His story is just to point out how the sense of worthlessness in some people is financially exploited by prestigious brand like Apple.

Apple did not exploit anyone. If you desire something so much, then go for it. What imperative does Apple have to forbid someone to exercise their freedom?

I don't see how FOMO explains anything more than the first purchase. The second and third purchases just seem like random stupidity.

> seem like random stupidity.

Or phones are his thing. Everyone has a thing they have probably spent stupid relative amounts of money on. A gaming computer? Games? A guy I know from Jiu-Jitsu collects Gi's at $200+/each.

Could be stupidity, or compulsive fomo. I think that to do what he did, stupidity is not enough, you have to have a big fear or insecurity inside to work as a sufficient motivator.

> "Then we tried with 20 months one. Finally, accepted"

The social pressure for having "an old phone" most have been incredibly high.

Something like that happen to me on university, I had a 5 years old phone with no Whatsapp/Blackberry chat. It made me feel so left behind and even sad sometimes.

The cool thing now is that you can have a brand new 2019 phone with the latest tech for 300/400 euros. So if you want to keep the pace, you can do it without selling your soul. I think it's more about the temporary sense of worthiness that an Apple product can give you.

Even for 100 Euros, but non-tech people don't always know that. Many of them think that to stay current they need "an iPhone", and 100 Euro iPhones simply don't exist.

you can even get an iPhone 7/8 for reasonable price right now, if Apple is a requirement. I'm still on my 7 from late 2016 and will stick to it through this cycle as well.

Good choice!

It's kind of sad really. Businesses prey on the human condition and there's nothing we can do about it because, well, Apple's not really breaking the law and we all like good cellphones.

100% agreed.

+

No mention of self-control.

I find marketing pretty unethical. Manipulation of emotions and the brain to sell stuff.

Commodities seem harmless, but brainwashing people to buy moderate quality products at luxury prices is horrifying.

Here I am with an iPhone 6 still.

It plays music, like my iPod did. As well as podcasts. I don't use any apps otherwise that don't come with it from Apple. On the rare occasion someone decides to call me it answers, sometimes (it's slow to answer, but after 3 retries, sometimes the first).

I try to answer text messages on my Mac with Messages.app. It's easier to type.

Not sure I want to upgrade. I was planning on it. I can afford it. Kind of just trying to see how long I can keep it going for fun. I think I've had it for close to 5 years now.

My iPhone 6s, with its weird turning off and on randomly at times and other funky behaviors, was (and will always be) my favorite phone I ever owned! I'm not joking :)

Same, still have mine since release. My only issue is the battery but that's cheaply replaced. I'm still deciding if i should upgrade or try to push another year or two with it.

When my 6 broke, I decided to switch carriers (from prepaid) to try out the new (at the time - earlier this year) XR. For the 1 week I owned it, there was something strange about it that I just can't describe. It wasn't buyers remorse, but it just felt wrong in my hands. I genuinely asked myself if spending 1k + 100/mo was worth it. Ended up returning the phone, returned back to my old carrier, and ended up going with a 6s making my purchase at 250 + 30/mo. No qualms.

Was it your first job dealing with people? People are funny, and it can be hard to account for their motivations and ways in which they want things and make changes. Ascribing these anecdotes to Apple's advertising/brainwashing program is a little bit silly.

Not really. I worked at a movie theater before that. I saw all kinds of crazy people and funky behaviors there. So I was used to it!

That's bad. But imagine these guys chose similarly priced Android phones instead.

I thought it couldn't get any worse, but thank you for reminding :)