Comment by saagarjha | Hacker News Reader

Comment by saagarjha | Hacker News Reader

Note that this probably has less of an impact than you’d think:

> Apps may contain or run code that is not embedded in the binary (e.g. HTML5-based games, bots, etc.), as long as code distribution isn’t the main purpose of the app, the code is not offered in a store or store-like interface, and provided that the software (1) is free or purchased using in-app purchase; (2) only uses capabilities available in a standard WebKit view (e.g. it must open and run natively in Safari without modifications or additional software); your app must use WebKit and JavaScript Core to run third-party software and should not attempt to extend or expose native platform APIs to third-party software; (3) is offered by developers that have joined the Apple Developer Program and signed the Apple Developer Program License Agreement; (4) does not provide access to real money gaming, lotteries, or charitable donations; (5) adheres to the terms of these App Review Guidelines (e.g. does not include objectionable content); and (6) does not support digital commerce.

You’re free to make a web app as long as you don’t try to sell things through it.

>(4) does not provide access to real money gaming, lotteries, or charitable donations

Why is that?

I also don't understand how is Kickstarter allowed when not everything they have are physical goods.

My guess is that it involves complex jurisdictional things.

Money Transfer Method A is not permitted in City/County/State/Nation B.

Person A lives in City/County/State/Nation B and is not able to download Money Transfer Method A app that is acting correctly as an app. Everything is in order.

Person A lives in City/Country/State/Nation B and downloads an app that provides an HTML gateway to Money Transfer Method A. Apple can't control that. But Apple gets the heat from City/Country/State/Nation B for enabling the money transfer through an app in its App Store.

A native app would have this issue and wouldn’t be b locked. Native apps would call some web api to transact, which isn’t reviewable by apple.

As for the heat you describe I think you may be influenced by tv/movies usually a company like apple has a law enforcement contact. Police or prosecutors would contact apple and that’s it. I assure you law enforcement and apple have a regular open channel. Apple doesn’t bend over backwards but do comply as you have to in any country

Too much opportunity for fraud and phishing, as well as regulatory jurisdictional reasons. Apple can look at all the HTML in the app, but can't dependably look at the remote HTML that could change later.

So they can try to make sure a gambling app does some sort of geolocation, they can't tell if the web site will do that.

(How reliable reviewing can really be is a separate question).

They can't just say "kickstarter are bad now" because their reasoning will definitely be audited in court and it won't stand up to scrutiny.

> as you don’t try to sell things through it

Why? Why does Apple insist on playing middleman, if not for totalitarian control over all commerce on the platform? How is this not monopolistic anti-trust behavior?

I’m not providing my opinion on Apple’s policies; I’m just surfacing them because the linked article doesn’t make them clear.

You’re free to make a web app as long as you don’t try to sell things through it.

The clarification made it less clear. You’ve always been able to sell physical goods through the App Store.

What exactly is Apple's role in the sale of digital goods? You made a comparison to selling via Walmart, which is a false equivalency.

The app store can easily work like podcasts aggregating RSS feeds from developers, it's just that Apple has forcefully inserted itself into the transaction

The entire premise of the App Store, permissions and sandboxing is that users should be able to download anything from the App Store willy nilly and know that it won’t do the same type of invasive crap that can happen on Windows and Macs.

The App Store is not a flea market. Podcasts can’t install malware, eat battery life, invade privacy, etc.

I’m very careful about what I install on my personal computers. I install all sorts of crap on my iOS devices with some type of assurance about knowing what they can and can’t do.

1. Sandboxing doesn't need apple's app store, it's manual policy enforcement and arbitrary anti competitive rejections. Many, many sandboxes have existed with well documented permissioning systems that don't need anointing by manual reviewers.

2. Speaking of flea markets and the false equivalency of the app store to a Walmart, Walmart doesn't require banning flea markets but the app store (Apple) bans sideloading. Walmart and flea markets coexist peacefully.

3. Just because you enjoy being chaparoned on iOS, doesn't mean everyone does. Go ahead and enjoy willy-nilly installs from the app store, but don't block user's choice to circumvent Steve Jobs' image of the universe

The truth is that Apple doesn't play a role in the sale of digital goods, or meaningfully increase security outside automated sandboxing. The real premise of the app store is totalitarianism and greed

Sandboxing doesn't need apple's app store, it's manual policy enforcement and arbitrary anti competitive rejections. Many, many sandboxes have existed with well documented permissioning systems that don't need anointing by manual reviewers.

Where is an example of that actually working in the consumer market? How has that worked out for Android?

2. Speaking of flea markets and the false equivalency of the app store to a Walmart, Walmart doesn't require banning flea markets but the app store (Apple) bans sideloading. Walmart and flea markets coexist peacefully.

Android and iOS also coexist. If you care about “freedom” you are free to use Android like 80%+ of the rest of the smart phone market.

Just because you enjoy being chaparoned on iOS, doesn't mean everyone does. Go ahead and enjoy willy-nilly installs from the app store, but don't block user's choice to circumvent Steve Jobs' image of the universe

And it’s your choice to buy an Android device....

Then use android.

Those of us happy with the trade off will remain on Apples platform.

> Then use android.

This. It should be so simple, use the platform that best caters to your requirements. Instead, people are happier to bitch and moan about the tactics of a company we've been able to understand for the past 12 years rather than just use and evangelise the platform that best suits their needs.

I assumed that was already known, but I think it's good to have your reminder for those who aren't aware of this.

Is anything stopping people from going all-in HTML5 and not even worry about having a presence in the app store?

Sadly, Apple almost seems to purposefully keeps mobile Safari buggy for HTML5 apps. You might think, why not install Firefox or Chrome on iOS then? Well, turns out Apple only allows those apps to use an outdated version of Safari as their browser engine.

Here's a regression that appeared in iOS 10, which affects HTML5 games. https://stackoverflow.com/questions/37808180/disable-viewpor...

Apple almost seems to purposefully keeps mobile Safari buggy for HTML5 apps

Then your HTML5 app is broken.

Back before there was an App Store, when all "apps" were web apps, I wrote one of the first non-Apple weather apps for the iPhone. It included animated radar, weather alerts, hurricane tracking, and even streaming audio from a real meteorologist. And this was more than a decade ago, on bog-standard launch-day iPhones. It was even featured by Apple back when it had a directory of iPhone web apps.

Mobile web apps could be really incredible with today's technology, if so many of them weren't crammed with unnecessary/lazy/stupid garbage.

The above statement is not correct. You’ve always been free to sell non digital goods through the App Store. For instance, you can buy anything through the Amazon app that is actually shipped to you.

Can you set up your own independent shop in Walmart and sell stuff?

> Can you set up your own independent shop in Walmart and sell stuff?

With permission, sure. I see people selling girl scout cookies, kettle corn, etc in the entry to Walmart all the time.

Try doing that with a for profit business....

Apple wants to earn more money by taking a cut from your transactions. Few people are ready to share their profits unless forced to do so. It's not monopolistic behavior, because Apple does not hold a monopoly in any market.

When you look at the smartphone market for apps, I think you could make a pretty good argument that there is monopolistic behavior between the two giants, Apple and Google. Call it a duopoly or what have you. The fact that both stores have very similar policies regarding revenue share (70/30) seems to support this.

Both stores having the same exact revenue share may just be a consequence of there being a duopoly, or it may be more nefarious where active collusion has occurred between the two. Remember when Apple and Google got caught a few years back colluding against labor? https://www.cnet.com/news/apple-google-others-settle-anti-po...

Now, yes, Android does allow you to download apps outside the Play Store, but not by default. Microsoft was able to make a similar argument with Internet Explorer and Windows with it's monopoly cases. If you are one of a few large powerhouses like Fortnight or Tinder, you may be able take advantage of being able to bypass Play Store.

Except the very important market of App distribution on iOS.

Is that a high enough bar to be a monopoly in an important legal sense, though? One could easily switch to Android.

If I’m the only person that sells WalterGR’s apple tart appetizers, then I have a monopoly on that. But one could easily buy an them elsewhere...

Not trying to do reductio ad absurdum. One could think of an example between apple apps and Apple’s app store.

Reply on news.ycombinator.com