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Comment by burnte | Hacker News Reader

The reason for his denial, that it's too close to Testflight, that was a reason that always bothered me. Apple disallowing apps that are too similar to their apps, not allowing you to change default apps for core functions, etc., is blatantly anticompetitive.

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In the 2014 official guidelines Apple blatantly discouraged iOS developers from even making a fuss about their rejections.

         If you run to the press and trash us, it never helps.

https://web.archive.org/web/20141226094343/https://developer...

"18.2 Apps that contain user generated content that is frequently pornographic (e.g. "Chat Roulette" Apps) will be rejected"

Always my favorite. Safari + The Internet is what exactly?

I mean, you're welcome to make your own web browser app. (Using WebKit, of course.)

Reddit is my main source of porn and it's not banned either.

The reddit app is 17+, because of UGC. If a majority of users used it for porn, it would probably be banned.

Note that Google Chrome in the app store is 17+, for this very reason. As are Firefox, Opera, and probably every other browser.

> If your App doesn't do something useful, unique or provide some form of lasting entertainment, [...] it may not be accepted.

> If your App looks like it was cobbled together in a few days, or you're trying to get your first practice App into the store to impress your friends, please brace yourself for rejection. We have lots of serious developers who don't want their quality Apps to be surrounded by amateur hour.

Are these from an alternate universe?

There are a lot of very shoddy apps in the App Store, enough that it can be hard to find decent ones for all the crap.

2014 was so different. I see Apple rejecting developers more and more like Google closing business accounts without any explanation. The damage done to an innocent individual can cost their livelihood. Those giants need to be regulated asap.

Not regulated, broken up and restructured. They can’t kill livelihoods if people can open another App Store application to load whatever. A few big name break ups will scare the rest into compliance.

Here's the actual blog / text where the author discusses it:

https://qnoid.com/2019/07/29/Windmill-on-the-iPhone.html#mai...

> YOUR APP IS TOO SIMILAR TO TESTFLIGHT, WHICH CREATES A MISLEADING ASSOCIATION WITH APPLE PRODUCTS. WE ENCOURAGE YOU TO REVIEW YOUR APP CONCEPT AND EVALUATE WHETHER YOU CAN INCORPORATE DIFFERENT CONTENT AND FEATURES TO BRING IT INTO COMPLIANCE WITH THE APP STORE REVIEW GUIDELINES.

Testflight: https://developer.apple.com/testflight/

To be honest, I kind of agree with Apple on this one. What does Windmill do that Testflight does not already do? The author states:

> Windmill on the iPhone allows an organization with an iPhone app under development to make that app available for distribution on any devices they own, as documented in the iOS Deployment Reference.

So does Testflight.

> It makes use of ad-hoc distribution to make it dead easy to get started as a small- to medium-size business, with app distribution to half a dozen or so devices, while progressing towards TestFlight.

Ok, the distribution for test flight might not be "ad hoc", but most end users don't care how it gets published. If it saves a substantial amount of time / clicks, then yeah that might be worthwhile, but based on the product description it's not very clear.

> It allows businesses to distribute their app continuously while still in development, at regular time intervals, on demand, or as a reaction.

So does Testflight.

Even if true, how is that a valid reason for rejection? Imagine MS banning editors in Windows because they do the same thing as Notepad or Word.

..or not allowing other web browsers because Windows has one... :)

This is not a good analogy because it doesn't map correctly to reality. Developers are required to agree to these terms prior to enrollment in the Apple Developer Program.

I imagine this is more like that time Google tried to submit the Chrome installer to the Microsoft Store and was rejected because the policy for web browsers in the store is that they must use the EdgeHTML engine [1].

[1] https://mspoweruser.com/microsofts-rejection-googles-chrome-...

Hiding behind "you agreed to a 50 page TOS that would take an entire legal team to assess, and you can piss up a rope if you don't agree" isn't a good look, it also changes absolutely nothing about the fairness of the arrangement.

Oh, so if Apple did it, it can never be done better? Imagine if Valve did that:

"Sorry, your game 'Deus Ex' was rejected because it is too similar to 'Half Life' and creates a misleading association with Valve products. We encourage you to review your game and evaluate whether you can incorporate different features."

Do you know what was a startup at one time outside of Apple?

TestFlight. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/TestFlight

TestFlight didn't have an app at all until after Apple bought them. I'm not sure why Windmill needs an iPhone app to be a viable business.

"TestFlight is not available for Mac apps."

https://testflight.apple.com/

With you reasoning there shouldn't be any alternative browser, calendar, notepad, map, email, alarm clock, calculator, etc because similar functionalities are provided by apple apps.

> Apple disallowing apps that are too similar to their apps, not allowing you to change default apps for core functions, etc., is blatantly anticompetitive.

First, it is really disheartening to read Leoforos Syngrou's tale of dedication, inspiration, and going all-in with iOS development only to have his app rejected. I hope Syngrou can find the wherewithal to continue on his journey of software development and I think one place he might actually try is with Apple itself.[0] He's already worked as an iOS developer and I also think he might try working for another iOS team (or as a contractor) in order to fund another foray into independent iOS development.

Or maybe leave the Apple ecosystem and take his considerable talents elsewhere. Basically, I'm saddened to hear he's burned out and wish him as speedy a recovery as possible.

Finally, and this is going to go against the grain of the hacker ethic prevalent among many of us HNers, I think it has to be said that being anticompetitive may be unethical but it is not illegal in the framework of US antitrust law unless the company uses a monopoly position to extend its dominance in other markets.

Independent developers and second-party shops must be very cautious and circumspect about their business prospects if they do not have a formal contract with the owner of a platform for which they are developing.

Syngrou should be proud of his accomplishments and not take Apple's rejection of Windmill as the final say about his skill and promise as an iOS developer, let alone a developer of his caliber and dedication.

[0] I understand this is a difficult and uncertain road, but it's worth a shot. I say this as someone who works on an Apple campus.

EDIT: fun -> fund; "among most of us HNers" -> "among many of us HNers"

“Leoforos Syngrou” is probably not his name.

I’m not greek but thats “Syngrou Street/Road” where he is based...

I believe his name is Markos Charatzas.

"Finally, and this is going to go against the grain of the hacker ethic prevalent among many of us HNers, I think it has to be said that being anticompetitive may be unethical but it is not illegal in the framework of US antitrust law unless the company uses a monopoly position to extend its dominance in other markets."

Yes, anti-competetive behavior in an of itself isn't illegal, no one argued that to start with. But the bit about it not being illegal isn't strictly true. You got it backwards. Antitrust laws are about companies being anti-competitive, not simply monopolies. FTC has fined lots of companies for being anti-competitive.

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