I just don’t want to be a software developer anymore (2017) | Hacker News Reader

I just don’t want to be a software developer anymore (2017)

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75 pointscroh103 comments

One thing that the article doesn't touch on is how a passion for software craftsmanship can be completely undermined by the recklessness of business decisions.

I love the experience of writing and using rock solid programs, but in the real world, there are deadlines to meet, flaky requirements, and tech debt. For people in it for the money, it doesn't affect them. For people that appreciated good software, it turns them into people just doing it for the money, except it also affects them.

I always explain it like this: imagine you were a chef, that loved the complexities of cooking; preparation, presentation, and recipe formulation. You enjoy preparing food and experiencing food. With this passion, you're forced to work in fast food, churning out meals as fast as the drive through will take them.

"Well, you can always cook in your free time!"

This is how most chefs lives look like. They prepare the same meals from a menu under time pressure years after years. Maybe it's not flipping burgers in fast food, but there is little space for artisanship in the food industry. You have to be really good to do more than prepare the same thing over and over from a menu.

Isn't any job is like that? I guess even super-duper-romantic jet fighter pilot will spend most of his time doing paperwork and explaining seemingly obvious things to the higher ups.

I think this is why so many people fantasize about owning a business; it seems to allow for the most "vision oriented" work, which is what most people find enjoyable. Even that has its limits though, as there's just different kinds of drudge work involved.

This is true for brewers too. Beer is endlessly fascinating with the amount of variables to tweak, but working in a brewery is a fairly routine process of reading the recipe and executing then same steps over and over.

At a brewery, or a restaurant for that matter, aren't you there to basically recreate a product based on a recipe someone else formulated? The person tasked with creating the recipe has the opportunity to practice artistry in this scenario, but they, too, may be under business related pressure.

You're right, even the recipe makers can't escape business pressure to make undesirable products. With the hard seltzer craze going on (in the US at least), a lot of brewers are starting to make it. They didn't get into brewing to make hard seltzer, but they can't ignore the fact that they will sell well and are cheap to produce.

But in most restaurants, the chef will chose which item to put on the menu, no ? They may repeat themselves every day but they get to change the menu from time to time.

there are deadlines to meet, flaky requirements, and tech debt

That's where software development grows from skill to art. What do customers actually want? What mostly likely will be their next requirement? Can we optimize the API to speed up development and use the extra time we got to improve stability? Which projects should be reported to the management proudly and which ones should be quietly sneaked into the codebase? And so on so forth.

Using your chef analogy, at some point it's no longer about flipping the burgers, it's about organizing the kitchen, optimizing purchases and educating the freshmen.

I think this notion is where I'm trying to steer my mentality about work. I know the right things to do, I see patterns of why they don't get implemented, so my focus is "what creative solutions can I devise to do what is right in this environment".

It's just a matter of putting creativity in a different place.

The most important thing they don't teach you in school is that you don't get paid well for whatever your passion is. Most ppl that succeed in life are born to already rich families, that can pad them until they get up and running.

It's not terrible, it's just reality. Some people never even get the opportunities that we do as highly-paid "IT people"...

If you're on a paper boat in a gravy stream, don't poke holes in it or you'll drown. If you're on a meatloaf mountain and you need to chew your way down to the gravy lake, don't just jump off, because then you'll drown in gravy too... We're all miserable souls looking for mashed potatoes, but sometimes there's only meatloaf, so plant potatoes and then hope it all works out.

It still pays more and beats working at Cracker Barrel. ಠ_ಠ

This is the lesson I really learned the hard way and way too late. If you are passionate about software craftsmanship, making the code not just fast and correct, but beautiful, don't write software for someone else's company. When writing code for a company, you're a tradesman, not a craftsman. Schedule and customer acceptance is all you're going to be measured by. No customer cares if their water pipes are beautiful and the way they run is elegant and gives your basement a nice '20s art deco look. They just care whether they're leaking or not and can you do it by Thursday.

If you like to spend days getting the architecture just right, moving code around from one file to another because it just makes more sense there, running it through lint on the strictest settings and getting no errors, alphabetizing your #includes and lining up all your variable names, sanding and polishing away until that code is a beautiful diamond, then for your own sanity don't write software for a living!

I totally agree with her priorities. I too don't want to work on just one tiny cog of a system where I don't know the big picture, so I try to avoid projects that sound boring, and look for projects that sound interesting. I want to keep that passion alive. Now I'm building interesting stuff and we're responsible for the entire thing. In fact, many companies have moved to fullstack devops roles, which is basically just new corporate speak for doing the whole thing as well as deploying it.

> "Coding for a couple of hours a day in your spare time isn’t the same as coding for 8+ hours a day. Over the past decade it has worn me down. I have regular painful migraines triggered by working long hours. I have the beginnings of arthritis in my neck. I’ve tried standing desks, balance board desks, treadmill desks, special diets, exercising more before and after work. "

I don't spend 8 hours per day programming either. And I only work 4 days. No single desk is ever going to solve your problems; you need regular change. Pause, get some coffee, take a walk outside. It's great for clearing your head and making a fresh start.

But I can imagine corporate culture matters a lot. If you're at a company that expects you to spend 8 hours typing hard behind your desk, that's going to suck. If your employer doesn't respect your work-life balance, that sucks. Many Dutch companies do care about those things, but I can imagine that countries like the US or Japan have a very different culture.

I went through exactly the same thing.

I love the coding aspect. I love using my brain, solving problems, working with intelligent people. I can't handle sitting inside for 50 hours a week, and I can't handle business politics and nonsense.

So I quit my Software Engineering job and took 2 years to drive from Alaska to Argentina, having the time of my life. [1]

Then I worked for a bit again to save money, and quit again and just got back from 3 years driving all the way around Africa. [2]

I've decided I want to be a travel writer and photographer, because it makes me happy. I have way less money, but I'm happier than I've ever been. I have written a couple of books about my adventures, and I write for a slew of magazines now too.

Do what makes you happy.

[1] The Road Chose Me Volume 1 - https://amzn.to/2wkxceX

[2] 999 Days Around Africa - https://amzn.to/2H93IUH

> I love the coding aspect. I love using my brain, solving problems, working with intelligent people. I can't handle sitting inside for 50 hours a week, and I can't handle business politics and nonsense.

A wild consideration: Doesn't the fact that many companies "select" for people who love solving hard problems (e.g. by using brainteaser coding problems in the hiring process) cause this problem? This way, the company hires people who prefer a very different kind of work than what they have to do in their job.

A further thought: How could a hiring process look like that selects for the kind of work that one actually has to do?

> A further thought: How could a hiring process look like that selects for the kind of work that one actually has to do?

Hire anyone that walks in? Kick them out if they mention anything like passion, only people motivated by money are accepted, but preferably as little as possible.

I agree with a lot of things in the article and I can relate to the author but this quote really threw me off

>"some guy who does the same work as me is getting paid 20% more” (the author being female)

Several times in my career I've found that other male developers (me being male) that I considered not even good made 50% more than me. Sometimes I found out that I made 50% more than other younger developers that I considered way better than me. I understand that women are underpaid compared to men in general but this specific situation can be explained by so much more than sexism.

I agree but it's difficult to make any comment on this sort of thing without being misinterpreted and/or seen as minimizing women's equality and the right to equal pay.

As far as the rest of her article, I agree with it and I'm a single, white, straight male. Sure, I like coding, but at the end of the day a job is a job and, in the words of the author herself, I dream of a world where we all work less..

I hope people don’t misunderstand my comment to mean that I want to live in a world where women make less than men just because they are women. I certainly don’t and yet that’s the world we live in.

On the other hand this particular example from the author is not a very good one since we all know men make +/- 20% from each other

men make +/- 20% from each other

It can go a lot more than 20%, and it doesn't always have to do with bias/minorities/etc.

I think plenty of people just get paid less because they aren't strong negotiators or don't know how much they should be requesting. Sure, the latest salary report they saw online said people are getting $150k for similar jobs, but are they really getting $150k at XYZ company in your town, or are those numbers inflated by liars/SF|NYC|LA roles? Those are the thoughts that go through my head, at least, in addition to "Am I really worth that? They would offer me X if I was worth X, right?".

100% this. An unrelenting blaming of gender(or anyone factor) means you are unlikely to find out the whole picture. It's never simple, often composed over decisions made over many years. Luck, politics, hard work, perception, sexism. Take your pick.

The thing is, even if she is right about the reason she is underpaid, that way of thinking puts the situation out of her control, leading to suffering and stagnation. If you instead assume that you do have control over the situation, then that "positive bias" leads to finding ways to actually improve the situation.

In any case, it's always a mix of mutable and immutable factors. Here she has chosen (or automatically defaulted) to fixate on the one thing she cannot do anything about! From that perspective your only options are to suffer in silence, or to complain.

This article makes me feel a little better about my life decisions. I started programming at age 12, but as my major I chose mechanical engineering because at the time, there was a lot of talk about the US software industry crashing and it all going to India.

I'm not going to try to portray mechanical engineering as all roses - the pay is a bit lower, and the chances of becoming a break-out rock start are much lower (think of the capital investment needed to build your own business). But the work weeks are a true 40 hours for at least 90% of weeks in most places, the work is much more varied (office, shop, lab, travel), and mechanical engineers with grey hair don't seem to have problems finding a job.

but as my major I chose mechanical engineering because at the time, there was a lot of talk about the US software industry crashing and it all going to India.

I was in college 07-11. When I later asked my dad "WTF why did I not study CS?" he told me pretty much verbatim what you said... we thought it was going to India. I wonder if you were a student around the same time period? In retrospect, things quickly changed around 2012 coming out of the recession, and I suspect the industry had been picking up steam for a while after a few generations of iPhones and mobile gaining early traction.

Ultimately I think it's difficult to find a job with the correct combination of everything you want. I don't think this is unique to software development.

I've worked in places in London that I really enjoyed. Good colleagues, good environment, tip top.

But then you're in a place with a hellish cost of living, and it's basically a requirement to play office politics and earn $BIGNUM, else you'll be in a pokey flat with a shit commute forever. And that can really eat in to motivation - because suddenly your work is no longer about the craft, it's about increasing your personal numbers.

I imagine the same to be true in SV/SF.

You can then have the other extreme, whereby perhaps you have a very low cost of living, but there's 1 software company and you either work there or not.

Remote work can help to solve this, but there are a whole bunch of unsolved social issues there.

A lot of the stuff I read on here about burnout I think isn't really linked to the work itself. It's the whole environment - everything feeds in.

What's 1000x worse than working on small code fragments, is designing programs by talking in meetings. Management types are drawn to it, not software geeks.

"geeks"?

They meant "nerds".

Well someone passionate about thinking and implementing instead of talking and thinking loudly in a meeting room, and delegating the implementation to a low paid and low regarded individual.

We had this at a previous job. At a meeting there would be 1 tester, 2 (!) non-tech product owners, and 3-4 devs.

The designs were as bad as expected, but worse than that was the scheduling. I.e. "complete this feature", then "complete that feature", with little opportunity to work on their common parts or refactor anything.

Thankfully there was enough of an agile culture for us devs to tell them to stop. We started to split meetings, so that the non-devs could dump all their information on us in the first part of the meeting, then they'd leave. Then the devs would spend the rest of the meeting scribbling designs on the whiteboard.

Reading this, I have the feeling she quit her career in programming because of the long hours.

But why not look for a job with normal hours?

If she lives in the U.S. it can be difficult to find an employer who's willing to cover the cost of living in exchange for labor. Sounds like she's stuck in a positive feedback loop of medical expenses, and that makes it hard to be picky about jobs.

What??? Maybe in Silicon Valley, but everywhere else in the US if you’re a programmer you’re in the top 25% incomes locally, probably higher. In Austin, a good front end dev and you’re living in pretty much any neighborhood you want.

But at what cost? It sounds nice to be in the top 25% but if the conditions are unsustainable, it won't matter.

That's a rather bleak outlook on life. And nonsense. If you get a nice job in Austin for $120k, you can buy a house in a nice neighborhood, let your wife stay at home with the 3 kids, own 2 cars, take vacations. And it's been that way for the last 20 years I've been here.

> Austin for $120k, you can buy a house in a nice neighborhood, let your wife stay at home with the 3 kids, own 2 cars

I'm not that familiar with Austin, but a quick look at real estate listings show that four bedroom homes with two car garages are not commonly available for less than $400,000, unless you perhaps want to spend most of your non-working hours commuting.

You can live north of the city and find $300k houses easily and have a 20 min commute to the Domain or a 40 min commute to downtown.

> Sounds like she's stuck in a positive feedback loop of medical expenses, and that makes it hard to be picky about jobs.

Just imagine the US would have some kind of system where your medical condition does not force you to stick with the job that makes you ill. Wonder if anyone has tested that before and it works. /sarcasm

In all honesty: I don't understand why the US is not having a public health care system like Europe which stops stuff like this.

After reading this, I felt the she is painting all the industry that software is applicable to with the same brush.

Software development as a discipline is applicable across many types of industry (automotive, mobile, communications, aerospace, Internet, etc).

I wonder how much of her wanting to quit software development is due to the industry that she is in.

I've been wondering about this. I've heard that it can be preferable for various reasons to work at a company that does something other than software as its main thing.

I agree with most of what she says about being a software dev, expect, for the long hours - how many companies has she worked in? I have worked in 7 companies over the last few years (mostly as a contractor though a few were permanent) and in not one of them had employees working more than 40 hours a week.

A sad story indeed, but I've never felt any of my work has been "Snow Crashy" or monotonous or lacking the need for autonomy and creativity. I doubt it's representative of the entire industry, and it's not even fair to treat the industry as a monolith to begin with.

most of people have jobs like she mentions, but they need money badly to live, so they have no choice than to accept it.

Most of my male colleagues and myself included also hate the industry because the pay sucks, the hours are long, you are expected to do impossible things in impossible amounts of time, and we are so removed from the end users that it’s hard to get an idea of the impact we are having on their day to day grind.

It may have something to do with the local scene as well, as I’m pretty confident that not all workplaces are like that, it wasn’t at all like that where I was before.

That being said I find anonymously contributing code to open source projects rewarding enough to offset the daily grind.

I don't see this particular story as a problem with the industry itself, but seems like a terrible employer to work for if you need to hide your pain. Good companies don't push people this far, and even help employees when needed. Some have even health-preserving programs.

Inst this more of a rant against corporate, big companies only offering desk jobs? There are many other types of companies. Smaller ones with flexible and/or remote work exist out there

Finding right place to work is tricky. My experience in Germany: public research organizations have funny salaries, but job might be very interesting and fulfilling. Small owner led companies can be great with great conditions, but can also be exactly opposite. Big companies pay best, it’s a good argument to stay there at certain age.

IMO a lot of problems with our work culture come down to too many hours. If we cut down full-time to mean 20 hours a week, I think a lot of the suffering would disappear. Health conditions would be reduced, ennui from the meaninglessness of tasks wouldn't seem as stark, balancing work and life would be a breeze. It just seems so weird to me that employers are willing to pay me $X for 40-50 hours a week but not $X/2 for 20-25.

I’d love to be a programmer but it seems that my job would likely consist of some database programming or nuts and bolts of a internal corporate program. Not exactly exciting or fulfilling work! Correct me if I’m wrong, I’m not in the industry but that’s my impression. This blog kinda confirms my concerns.

It depends what industry you're in. If you go to work for a boring corporation that doesn't do anything interesting then you will find it boring and unfulfilling. Or you can work for a company that has some kind of ethical mission and you'll probably find that better. Its the same as any job really.

Nuts and bolts programming isn't a bummer for me. There is room for creativity and ingenuity even in that kind of coding. I find the craftsmanship itself is the fulfilling bit.

The downsides arise when management injects themselves into the process. "Skip testing", "don't use source control", "don't refactor", "don't start building until the spec is complete" are some of the gems I've heard before.

It's one thing to be lazy or make mistakes - we all do it. It's another beast when you want to deliver professionally but you can't because it conflicts with a company's "way of doing things".

The cool thing about being a programmer is that you can use it in basically every field of endeavor out there. If you want to work with movies, you can work with movies. Are you passionate about urban planning, ecology or archaeology, there are lots of roles for programming in all those fields. Want to be a journalist, lots of programming and data mining happening within journalism these days.

There are basically two ways to approach a career as a programmer, one is to see programming in itself as your passion and solving the programming problem you're facing at any given moment as an ends in itself. The other is to see programming as a force multiplier to give yourself 'super powers' for doing the thing you actually care about.

That is a naive opinion IMHO. In all but the core SW roles you would merely be a simple cog being told what to do. If for example you'd be coding for an archaelogy department you would be the code monkey of the professor heads. Even worse you would have to battle their ignorant views on SW. My guess is that you'd hate playing that role and that you would run as fast as you could back to a SW house doing fragmented work with people that at least understand a bit of software.

At least that's my experience of venturing into a non-hardcore SW field (health sector).

I've worked both ends of this 'spectrum' several times in my career and your experience doesn't match mine at all. I've rarely had the problem of domain experts treating me as a cog, and certainly not more so that in a 'normal' SW house. If you come in humble, ask a lot of questions and listen to people you'll quickly become a respected member of the team.

The important part is to understand, enjoy and respect the domain you are working in. Then working with domain experts to use software to solve problems you both care about can be both fun and rewarding. And

You are right that you will have to 'battle' their ignorant views of SW development. But those battles are rarely hard to win if you're a bit diplomatic, because people don't care to much. They might not have any version control in place when you start and might not see the need for it, but I've never experienced anyone forbidding me from using version control. Most of the time they even come around to it as being pretty good idea.

From my experience, with a bit of back and forth I'm helping these non-SW departments systemize things in ways they might not have thought of. Through the power of my business ignorance and having conversations, I'm rubber ducking these people to good systems.

You can always get into embedded programming! Instead of databases you can program things that move and blink!

I work with a lot of non-profits, but this mostly just involves editing pre-fab wordpress widgets, and basic computer troubleshooting and repair. It's a simple life.

I'm just glad to have a boss who understands that I do better work when I am getting paid real money. It's surprising how many people want to boss me around for free.

Work culture in the western world is broken.

We face so many issues because when it comes down to it, humans spend most of their time in very cold, disconnected working environments that are designed to break your soul and turn you into a drone.

I think what should be remembered is that swdev is a high demand job, and you should have high demands and standards of yourself and your needs.

The author admits to hiding away her flaws as to not show weakness, this is the wrong approach. Admit your weaknesses, be honest with yourself, your colleagues and your boss. If they don't understand or reciprocate, tell them to go get fucked.

Become a freelancer or consultant.

There are good workplaces out there and you have to really seek them out!

It sounds like what she's discovered that 40+ hours a week sitting in a cubicle is not the most physically or mentally fulfilling task to be had in life.

Seems pretty straight-forward to me!

By no means should we ever stop trying to improve working conditions for all, but we should also keep in mind that throughout history, most workers haven't had the luxury of being able to feed their families by doing fun- or personally-fulfilling work. At least we don't have to wrestle a heavy plow behind a balky ox or mule for hours on end in hot, humid weather (to give just one example).

If you don’t like most of the software development lifecycle and are not willing to learn new strategies, you probably shouldn’t “write code” for a living, and that’s ok. You are more than just a requirement to code translator. Learn to grow a little task into something special. There is always a way to make it better. Spend more time designing and less typing. That’s my 2 cents

That did spiral quickly into a rant about women in the tech field.

But maybe all that ranting explains the lack of women in the field.

Can you elaborate please?

Maybe her concerns are shared amongst a majority of her female peers - thus leading to women either not wanting to join the field or leaving shortly after entering it.

I mean men and women are different. We tend to excel at different things, have different thought processes, process things differently, different strengths and weaknesses (generally, right? - there is obviously overlap).

Maybe her complaints help explain the lack of women in the field.

> We tend to excel at different things, have different thought processes, process things differently, different strengths and weaknesses (generally, right? - there is obviously overlap).

This could also be said of all individuals, sex aside.

Either way, I don't buy it. Nurses tend to mostly be women and yet the job is far harder than any software development job. It's more grueling hours, physically demanding, and mentally challenging. I think it's absurd to suggest that women as a whole can't handle the hours and demands of software development.

But being a nurse is more social than software is. And that aligns with what we know about the differences between where women tend to excel and where men tend to excel.[1]

And of course you can then argue that parts of software are more social and my argument would be that there are more women in those parts of software.

[1] https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/rabble-rouser/201707...

> I think it's absurd to suggest that women as a whole can't handle the hours and demands of software development.

I didn't suggest that at all.

I don't even see the word "hours" in the comment you're replying to... Got a bit of a chip on your shoulder?

Is it common for people under ~35 to have so much back pain and medical issues? I thought back pain in young people is usually related to something like a bad injury.

I get back pain when I'm working at the desk a lot, but that's at the end of 14+ hour days sitting around with minimal movement.

If she earns 20% less, she probably just negotiated not that good. Not everything is some structural problem.

Well... the pay gap between men and women is a well documented structural problem.

You see it both relatively (equal competence, seniority and position) and absolutely across the whole work force (women tend to have an harder time getting top positions).

The statistics may vary from country to country, but just as an example here in France, the overall gap is at ~25% while the gap even when considering equal positions and responsibilities is at ~12%.

For Germany it's something like 22% with "uncleaned" data and somewhat like 6% (some statisticians even calculate it as low as 2%) for cleaned data. According to Wikipedia [0] the US seems to have something like 6-7%, too for cleaned data.

Based on that her 30% sound like real bad negotiation and not asking for a raise regularly. But the article lacks detail information on this. Also, nobody knows that, maybe she is just not very good at her job and did not get a raise for that reason.

She also only changed her job once since college, too. While her medical condition might make it harder to change jobs, I wonder how long this condition exists and whether this always was the reason not to look for a better paying job.

All in all: Lots of reasons why she earns not as much as her colleagues, but probably no structural reasons.

[0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender_pay_gap_in_the_United_S...

> But for a long time I pretended it was fun. That I loved it. Because there is a lot of social pressure to portray yourself that way in the industry. People hiring you will run the other way as soon as they see a crack in that facade.

Yes, having to put up this facade is one of my least favorite things about this industry. It's all a load of bullsh*t, I'm only in my technical area because there are jobs and money - if money weren't an issue I'd be working on my own FOSS projects that are way more interesting and meaningful to me.

> Because it’s not really “passion” they are looking for, but people who are merely willing to endure long hours. They aren’t really looking for the person who spends a few hours on the weekend on an open-source project, they are looking for the person who comes home from work and spends all night on it.

Yup, it's a tough pill to swallow when one realizes the exploitative nature of wage labor, and the lie we've been fed our whole lives about employers being benevolent and treating employees like family. The reality is sociopathic managers who won't hesitate to stab you in the back to cover their asses and/or get that promotion.

> It’s really hard to celebrate “women’s day” with free feminist speakers when I just found out some guy who does the same work as me is getting paid 20% more.

I agree with most of the sentiment of the article so I don't want to be arguing here, but getting underpaid isn't an issue exclusive to women. Just because you're underpaid doesn't mean that it's because of your gender.

Ultimately, this article is the perspective of a wage laborer waking up to the bullshit of the system, and the meaninglessness of 8 hours/day of mandated "ass in seat" time doing boring work for a boss and having to put a smile on your face and pretend like it's your passion.

Everything she writes, all of us but the most brainwashed lemmings already know, but we're not allowed to say it for fear of being blacklisted from the industry. I appreciate her having the courage to speak out what everyone secretly wants to say, and wish her success in her new endeavors.

> It’s really hard to celebrate “women’s day” with free feminist speakers when I just found out some guy who does the same work as me is getting paid 20% more.

Please stop this. STOP. If "a man" is paid 20% less, they're expected to change job and ask 20% more at the new one. This is what is expected of "men".

How much one gets paid in relation to their peers is solely based on negotiation, in the beginning of my career i was a poor negotiator, after several years i did my research, got competing offers are used those as leverage to get the best offer. I was never taught any of these skills, i learned from experience, and by pushing myself to do things i'm uncomfortable with (would you believe me if i said in the beginning of my career, i felt guilty taking money for doing something i love, this translated into basically low balling myself). This is not a man vs woman thing, this is a good negotiator vs poor negotiator thing.

> How much one gets paid in relation to their peers is solely based on negotiation

This is very US-specific and does not hold, for example, in Germany. I actually prefer the situation in Germany: this way, you can concentrate on getting better at programming instead of having to invest lots of time to become good at negotiation, too.

Some like negotiating.

The thing is that rigid salary levels they have in Germany is a drawback for people who has strong people skills, understanding of business, focus on delivery, width of knowledge, etc. Those make huge difference in the value you can bring to a company.

I want to talk to a company and show them the value I bring. You cannot sell yourself higher, if all employers look at are years of experience, and dry description of what work you did.

If a manager lowballs an offer for a woman because they think they can get away with it then that manager deserves to be condemned for it. Fullstop. That behavior only indicates a lack of respect for the individual. If you work for a manager who does that then you should question whether they have any respect for their employees including you. A developer has so many options that there is rarely a good reason to work for such a disrespectful manager.

[Edit: wording]

Does a manager deserve to be condemned if he lowballs a man, because he thinks he can get away with it?

> Does a manager deserve to be condemned if he lowballs a man, because he thinks he can get away with it?

Yes, because paying very different salaries for a very similar position causes a lot a damage to the reputation of the company if it comes to light.

If you negotiated 20% higher starting salary then you earn 20% more for the same work than the person who didn't. I don't know of many companies where you can't negotiate for a 20% higher starting salary so I don't really think this would cause a large reputation hit.

The primary way you negotiate a higher salary at your current place of employment is to either go work someplace else or threaten to go work someplace else. Actually going to work somewhere else is the far more likely method for most people. Either way you are no longer working at the place where they didn't value your work enough.

There's so little transparency as to what employees get paid that "outsiders", i.e. those who don't have an informal network of pals providing them confidential salary information on-the-side, don't have a way to determine what numbers to shoot for.

Someone well-connected would have avoided the company with the salary discrepancy before they accepted a job; those less well-connected incur the costly overhead of a job search when they finally find out the real deal.

After several years in the industry it's hard not to get a network of pals. If you're lucky enough, some of them will make it into management. Their information about how hiring and promotions actually work is indeed indispensable.

For the asocial folks like me who are incapable of making any friends at all, there are recruiters. Most of them will happily discuss what "a typical number for a person of my level" should be.

> There's so little transparency as to what employees get paid that "outsiders", i.e. those who don't have an informal network of pals providing them confidential salary information on-the-side, don't have a way to determine what numbers to shoot for.

Glassdoor? levels.fyi? Why would anyone need a "network of pals" to get average salary information? Who even cares what the average is? Just shoot for whatever number you want and then stop comparing yourself to everyone else.

Pretty sure there's some guy doing the same work as me and getting paid 20% more. (and I'm male)

Of course she is talking about averages, but it does come off as a weak argument when it's put that way.

I'll agree that the job is not fun, but it's still a decent job overall I think. I have definitely been miserable at many points, on the other hand. The real problem is that a lot of other jobs seem worse, not that coding is so great. I definitely do not have any sort of passion for it, that left long ago. Just a job.

The OP needs to place (2017) in the title.

> I still love coding, but I hate this industry

This essentially can be summarised by only doing software development as a hobby rather than as a profession. But again, this industry isn't for everyone.

While its always unfortunate that people who once enter this industry have now quit due to the 'long hours', 'deadlines' or 'burnout', perhaps they should have looked twice at the job requirements or questioned the number of hours before applying in the first place, rather than finding out the hard way.

This industry is unforgiving for those who cannot handle it or have no passion in the trade and only do it for the money. If you think a job as a SWE or a SDET is 'bad', wait until you go for a software engineering interview at a FAANG or FTSE 100 company.

If this sounds too 'hard' I have heard many vacancies for easier roles in the circus though who are willing to hire what they call 'clowns' and 'idiots'...

Do you have any idea how hard it can be to get a job in any decent circus? Most of them require decades of training and education and pay less than most manual labour jobs. Honestly working as a software developer (which I do) required far less investment of time and money then circus. (Where I am now a Partner Acrobatics trainer)

Clearly accepted Cirque du Soleil performers are scarcer than Google developers. This can also be applied to top performers in classical music as well.

The thing that shocked me is it isn't just the best. Even the worst usually have massive amounts of time and effort invested and the pay is normally awful. It's the hobby effect, similar to art and music, however the top performers make vastly less. Cirque du Soleil performers who are some of the best in the world still mostly make < 100k/year.

No job I've ever applied for has "Will work 60 hours a week on tedious ass bugs with a ton of pressure on you from higher ups." in the description.

School doesn't teach you about it.

The internet propaganda from both the positive and negative sides of the tech industry doesn't clear anything up.

You're doing that thing certain types of people do where they tell someone to just do something extremely ambiguous to be successful.

I can’t imagine being so self-hating that doing a job for money instead of my passion for JavaScript or whatever caused me to look down on myself. I also can’t really conceive of any sane person having a passion for JavaScript (or whatever).

then why the hell do we use it?! The inmates are running the asylum!

If the industry is chewing up and spitting out people as a matter of course, perhaps the problem is with the industry rather than the people.

> If the industry is chewing up and spitting out people as a matter of course, perhaps the problem is with the industry rather than the people.

Or with wrong expectations that people who go into the industry have.

Nope. The bosses are wrong. People are finite. Cant just keep eating people forever. Shit comes back eventually.

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