Dead Malls | Hacker News Reader

Dead Malls

deadmalls.com

139 pointswallflower152 comments

In my opinion, the suburban mall has always been an aberration and a contradiction. In the dispersed urban system that is the suburbs, malls attempted to offer the synergy and community that the dense city can offer - a walkable (from within) "city center" to buy what you need, for people to meet up and socialize, and so on.

And yet they weren't - they were sprawling monoliths only accessible via car. They weren't integrated meaningfully into existing city centers or the existing communities of the city. They were erected and expected to produce their own mini-city and mini-community, which they did faithfully for some years as they filled a niche that is otherwise unavailable to suburbanites.

But they don't make sense, not in the traditional city that can be navigated without a car, nor in the modern city that is thoughtfully designed with cars as a secondary concern and not as the first class citizen.

The final token that big box stores offered - a variety of goods that cannot be matched by smaller local stores - is mostly extinguished by the convenience of e-commerce which gives us access to nearly any product straight to our door. This is why the most successful remaining big box stores are those that offer products that can be troublesome or impossible to ship - Home Depot, Ikea, etc

I don't see the contradiction. There are lots of suburban-styled malls inside "traditional cities" (dense urban areas), that look and work basically the same way, but are urban. Seattle has one or two of them, Portland has one, Minneapolis has one, London Ontario has one -- all of these within the core downtown.

Suburban malls are not uniquely suburban. Many of them are in suburbia because they originally targeted average/regular/middle-income people, so they are built in the places where those people are allowed to live (which in the US, is almost exclusively suburban areas).

Generally speaking, "Dead Malls" has little to do with malls dying (in the US, we're still building brand new malls today), but has more to do with demographics shift (middle income people now live in different areas) and target market shifts (many new malls have moved up-market, there are less wealthy people than working-class people, and wealthier people generally don't live in the then-new 1970s/1980s suburbs anymore, they now generally live either full-downtown-urban or far-exurban)

The Eaton Centers in Toronto and Montréal also come to mind. They're huge, and intimately plugged into the center of the city, including being directly connected to subway stations.

That said, they're also, I suspect, mostly for tourists.

The Milwaukee area's malls really make the situation for suburban malls clear: The city buses do go to the malls, but the malls wouldn't let them drop people off by the door. They stop at an open air bus shelter at the far end of the parking lot.

Why didn’t they want bus traffic directly to the mall?

My first guess would be concern that buses driving all the way up to the mall would somehow impede the flow of traffic for cars.

My second guess would be that, Milwaukee being such a suburban flight city, there are certain. . . perceptions. . . about public transit and the people who use it. I used to end up in some rather uncomfortable conversations when people found out I regularly used public transit.

My best guess would be that it's officially one, and unconsciously both.

It’s also worth noting that navigating the mall parking lot is very slow for buses, and increased travel time on bus routes

1. Increases opex significantly, up to the point where you may need an additional bus and driver to provide the same frequency

2. Is bad for anyone making a trip passing through the mall

I'm wondering the same thing. I've never considered it before, but the mall near me does the exact same thing. Why?

Note that those three cities are also quite cold in winter - connected shopping matters when it’s -30 in January. Montreal’s underground city/malls are literal lifesavers, not just shopping. Matters much less in moderate areas.

Eh, there are lots of malls in fairly dense Beijing, the one next to my apartment complex (when I was living there) was 4 stories tall, fairly huge by USA standards, and still felt like it served a purpose even with a fully featured urban community around it.

But yes, even urban Chinese malls are faced with the reality of e-commerce and focus mainly on things you might not want to or can’t buy online (clothes, shoes, food, entertainment). And even then, ghost malls are definitely a thing (for Beijing, Sanlitun soho is a ghost mall across the street from a very successful Sanlitun village). Surviving American malls have evolved roughly the same way, though there are high end and low end paths to success (eg compare crossroads mall to Bellevue square mall in Bellevue WA).

      They were erected and expected to produce their own mini-city and mini-community, which they did faithfully for some years as they filled a niche that is otherwise unavailable to suburbanites.

That's dead on. All of the other things that malls were "supposed to be" were marketing and to the extent that they occurred, existed to feed the "mini-city/mini-community" which were the rent-payers who were there to sell their goods to the largest audience they could have available to them given the technology of the day.

They were the non-Internet world's answer to Amazon with a lot of the same problems. We drove 15 miles to the mall a few times a year for holiday/general shopping -- it was the only "hope" for handling Christmas in one trip (on the 24th of December where you could lift your feet off the ground and have the people all around you carry you to each store). Plus a nice play area where Dad could fall asleep while the kids beat each-other up and mom had time to get all of the shopping done[0]

I live next to two malls. One is an 80s, still-alive-but-barely, mall that will likely be on this site at some point. The other is a brand-new, outdoor mall with a variety of non-commercial attractions (live bands spring-fall Fri-Sun, a mini-splash pad for the kids and a larger play area). If I couldn't walk to the nice mall[1], I wouldn't visit either. Neither of them have any stores I'm interested in -- I've probably spent a total of $50 there in the 7 years since it's been around. It's hard enough to find things online with a search bar, let alone walking through miles of stores who don't make enough money to employ the staff required to provide the service that warrants the higher cost.

[0] Yes, that's an intentional exaggeration of gender roles for the purpose of being silly, not offending; my parents were nothing like this.

[1] When I moved here, it was a lousy par-3 golf course. This is a little more fun to walk to, and it's really neat listening to (some incredible) local bands for free, but a lot less fun to live next to at Christmas.

> If I couldn't walk to the nice mall[1], I wouldn't visit either.

This echoes my experience. I live in a city with excellent transit but I happen to live a solid 15 minute walk from the transit / urban part of the city and instead I live near a big road. Naturally, the big road is lined with big box stores.

One of them is a Micro Center and I quite like having so many computer parts and electronics in one place just a 3 minute walk down the road. However, if it wasn't so conveniently placed near my home, I would instead order everything online (even if I owned a car, which I do not).

While it is true most traditional malls required a car to access, once inside malls offer freedom from the car. Today's big box store strip malls practically encourage people to drive to each individual store. Traditional malls are good for kids who can wonder about without getting hit by a vehicle like in a strip mall or a city.

In big box stores... I needed a small part a few days ago and don't think I'd been in a Fry's Electronics for several years. It was downright disturbing how barren the place felt. There were maybe a dozen cars in the parking lot and 3 people on the 40+ checkout registers. I remember that place being full up and busy to the hilt. Now 1/3+ of the shelves are empty and it's clearly past its' best days.

The electronics area is completely stripped out, and the computer components area is staffed by kids who frankly don't know much of anything. It's really sad as I do have some fond memories of the place.

A mall nearby is about to be torn down, converting an indoor mall into an outdoor mall, which the more busy malls in the Phoenix area are. If movie theaters weren't largely in malls, I wouldn't even notice.

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20853834

I don't see the contradiction. A mall offers the walkability of an urban center but provides plenty of free parking. Additionally, there's no space "wasted" by residential and office buildings like there is in a city. What exactly doesn't make sense here?

Indoor malls died because consumers who want to shop in person turned out to prefer individual stores and strip malls. If anything you should be pointing out how weird and wasteful those detached stores are. It seems to me that the indoor mall is at least speaking the same language as you, with its "synergy and community" and walkability. The model of having detached stores and restaurants spaced widely apart is the unsustainable aberration. The indoor mall makes sense.

A mall is simply a privately-owned small-town urban core "Main Street". Dead malls are just dead towns, which exist because people move to newer developments when land is cheap. Big box stores still exist.

> A mall is simply a privately-owned small-town urban core "Main Street".

With a lot better parking. On the other hand, people could walk to the small-town urban core...

One way that malls are attempting to survive is by adding living and working environments; It seems obvious - have captive customers for your stores, have the "company town" vibe for employees, all while reducing parking requirements.

Though, it has some issues; particularly with zoning, insurance, and board approvals.

Incidentally, in my city, the suburban mall is thriving and expanding, but the downtown city center mall is completely dead.

The thriving mall is focusing on extremely high end retail and restaurants.

totally agree. I won't be shedding any tears to see this monstrosity go.

I still think a dead mall would be a great startup incubator - each small group gets its own office, tons of shared space to interact with each other, food court for local restaurants to cater to everyone, some big anchor spaces for the larger companies (or even a local data center), and even some built-in back offices for the property managers.

A good use of a dead mall is a Community College. A little ugly, perhaps, but workable. You have parking and large rooms already built out.

They did this with a sort of mixed indoor/outdoor mall in my city, it turned out well and about a third of it is still a shopping center with GameStop, Subway, clothing stores, etc. - it appears to be doing pretty well

I feel like malls have potential as massive culinary incubators, with the tired chain clothes store replaced with massive arrays of experimental restaurants and bars. This is anecdotal, but every 1-2 weeks I go to a mall I work near for lunch, yet for the two years I have been doing this I have yet to purchase any non-food merchandise (though I got close when browsing one of the bookstores).

I could get behind this. But it has to be different from current mall fare. I hate chain restaurants. Food courts tend to be sandwiches or fried crap passed off as ethnic.

When I lived in Boston there was a place in Chinatown called the Eatery. When you walked into the main room it had probably 15 different stalls, all with different types of Asian food. Everything was made to order. A mall converted into something like that I could get behind.

Food trucks serve this role in a few American cities (Portland, Austin). Nothing like the hawker stalls of Singapore, but fairly diverse.

Unfortunately the greatest concentration of food carts in Portland has gotten shut down. The land is being developed into a condo :-(

Sorry to say, the restaurants you despise are there because most people prefer them. There are fancy malls with fancy food courts for rich people, like Seattle Armory.

People in the US prefer inexpensive. They have a certain price point they don't want to go beyond. The Eatery I described was as far from "fancy" as possible. Dishes were under $10 and were rich in vegetable and protein content. They were also very flavorful. Eating flavorful food does not make it "fancy".

How fast food proliferated in the US goes beyond "fancy"/"not fancy".

Food trucks locally have acted as incubators for restaurant ideas. If successful then they open a restaurant.

I like the idea of a restaurant incubator much better. People could start out real small, maybe rent out a dining room for a single night each week. Have a big kitchen that could support multiple dining rooms.

Instead as the large department stores close locally we're getting go kart tracks, mini water parks and other kid attractions.

One in my city got acquired by the local community college and stores were turned into classrooms

It'd be interesting to see more ideas like this take fold (not specifically startup related, but just "rethinking what this space could be used for")

The Silverdome (former home to the Detroit Lions) was a skating rink on the weekends for a year or two. I've heard ideas of turning malls into senior living -- which would be a little funny[0]. As a guy who hates cold weather, I'd love to be able to walk to a restaurant without walking outside in February. I'm not sure if that would really work "in practice" (that was kind of the idea of the mall in the first place -- adding my bed to it doesn't really make it better and has a lot of downsides for the small upside).

I'm not really sure what the answer is[1]. I look at the 80s mall by my home and it's surrounded by 50 restaurants, on an intersection of an 8-lane and 6-lane road with thriving businesses all around it. Were it not in an excellent location -- the businesses bordering it area all doing very well; it helps that it's a mile and a half away from a brand-new, modern, mall and and a bunch of other popular retail/restaurants -- it would be abandoned like the rest. But it can't be doing anywhere nearly as well as a Walmart, Ikea, Meijer, Costco, BJs, or any other indoor retail establishment that would take that much property. In its current state, it hurts the businesses around it and abandoned -- all the same and its, at best, losing a lot of money.

[0] Aside from the two 80s malls in my area being surrounded by 2-3 retirement homes already, anyone who's arrived at one of these places in the 90s prior to the stores opening will remember the middle-aged and elderly men and (mostly) women "mall walking".

[1] Well, aside from the market answer -- which is, "abandon it because we can't make money on it" and "let the taxpayers deal with the blight". I have no problem with the former, but the latter frustrates me

Looks like it is happening [0][1]

[0] https://www.secondwavemedia.com/metromode/features/dearborn-...

[1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kNTb-ikPKvo

The idea of mixed-use spaces has strong attractions.

That's what we used to call "downtowns" or "high streets".

Retail, yes, but also offices, banking, government services, daycare, healthcare, recration, churches.

Concentration, density, access, variety.

Beijing tried this with a dead mall across the street from Microsoft Beijing. It felt like a dank place to run a business though. This isn’t the only one, Chinese cities have made a huge effort in trying to turn ghost malls into incubators so much that it has become cliche.

Google is currently converting the Westside Pavilion mall in west LA into office space. It doesn’t look that bad from what I’ve seen, but the lack of natural light would bother me.

I think that's (sort of) happened at Allegheny Center Mall in Pittsburgh. It's not a startup incubator, but a bunch of the retail space has been converted to office space.

It just needs galleries, I'm not going to read a blog post about a defunct mall without any pictures..

The YouTuber Dan Bell has a series where he explores dying or abandoned malls, juxtaposed with archive video from when they were alive and vaporwave music.

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLNz4Un92pGNxQ9vNgmnCx...

Those videos have a very interesting aesthetic, it kind of reminds me of what happens when someone who doesn't know how to make videos (and thus doesn't know the current trends) starts making them, in the process inventing their own, totally new style.

Vaporwave aesthetics are pretty interesting. The late 80s - mid 90s period of pop culture seems to have a lot of nostalgic and pseudo-nostalgic appeal for a lot of people.

Well, for tons of people at theirs 40s/30s or close they were kids or teenagers then, it makes sense for them to be nostalgic about it.

As for younger people, it's a period before the web/mobile/social media rise (and pre 9/11), so it's quite distinct from their own present today and thus can be interesting.

It's also a period of relative growth and optimism, as opposed to today...

It's weird. My partner and I are late twenties and talk a lot about 'nostalgia for something never truly experienced'.

We were too young to experience the '80s, and most of the '90s passed us by as children. But now, looking back, there is such a strong appeal - technology was still exciting without the societal consequences and complications - we really only used computers to play games and not for productivity. The anxiety and stress of social networks did not emerge until we were effectively adults and therefore a bit more immune.

Anyway, we love Com Truise, HOME, Flamingosis, and other artists (Simpwave on youtube!) creating a neo-retro-synth-vapour kind of pastiche, but it's odd to think that it's all referencing things that we are experiencing only in hindsight.

It's even odder from the perspective of someone who actually lived through it. I'm guessing the way I feel now is similar to how people my parents' age felt with all the hippie culture appropriation my friends were doing in the 90s.

>it kind of reminds me of what happens when someone who doesn't know how to make videos (and thus doesn't know the current trends) starts making them, in the process inventing their own, totally new style

At the same time, it's a well known aesthetic, established for a decade or so, with several sub-genres (including sub-genres of the music it accompanies it), well covered in the media, and so on...

Some are pretty trippy. I like it.

The odd thing about these videos is that he adds faint background music which makes it sound as though the abandoned malls still have lobby music playing.

They're soothing. Especially the "Miami Nice" video in the series. I could loop that all day if only it didn't have voice commentary.

There was a guy on imgur who used to post photos all inside dead Malls and it was very interesting. This website is very boring for me cos I see nothing. Seeing the demise over time of the mall is what’s interesting.

IMO the videos don’t work. I just wanna look at a clear still picture.

The stories with photos are marked with an icon. But a lot of the content is from the early 2000s and the photo quality not exactly up to modern standards.

So I clicked the link and the first thing I thought was "Cool, there'll be a bunch of ruin porn on this site", then went in, clicked into my area (was a little disappointed at the lack of two malls that I've seen quite a bit about on the web over the years) and realized there was ... one picture?

And I'm thinking, of course -- that's a lot of why I like Hacker News -- sometimes something that seems like it's going to be a click-baity time-sink of pretty picture links ends up being a write-up that's got actual value.

But hell, this time I just wanted some ruin porn. And I was about to comment on it and was trying to think of respectful way to inquire if anyone had a solid "Ruin Porn for Dead Malls" link without expressing dissatisfaction with the content provided here[0].

Since you broke the ice on that one -- does anyone solid bookmarks ... with pics? :) I dig it partly because there's a whole lot of Detroit "ruin porn" -- my home town (metro) -- and many are places I've visited/dined in/seen shows in. It's depressing (and fascinating) how quickly these places turn[1]. The first "Ruin Porn" site I visited had pictures of the interior of a Detroit steak house ... 3-6 months after we ate there. 90% of the damage was probably people picking at whatever was valuable that was left in the first few days, but the amount of natural growth (food/all kinds was left out and the building was exposed to the elements) and how quickly the earth started reclaiming what man had built was humbling.

Malls tended to be closed up in parts. Heck, I can't remember ever being at a mall that had every space occupied, but when they failed, they'd start blocking off large portions of the realestate. There'd be walled off third-floors, then all but the first. Some were partially converted to the headquarters of the real-estate company who owned them and later went bankrupt. The two abandoned malls that I've visited had full-time police deputies with a security office[2]. There were a lot of things related to running such a large property that you would never know about unless you had that job and it's interesting seeing how that all worked.

[0] I did read a little bit, but ... Wikipedia fills that need for me. Not sure why that made me think I'd sound like a d*ck, but hey.

[1] There was a steak house downtown that my boss had taken a coworker and I out to -- great dinner, very inexpensive. It closed a week later.

[2] One was in a gang area where you're just not going to get anyone buying things if they're fearing for their safety, and the other in an upper-class area with the tax dollars to warrant giving the wealthy visitors a sense of safety beyond "mall cop".

There’s a dead mall by an old office I used to work at. Stranger Things Season 3 rented a side of the mall and transformed it into an 80s mall.

This mall should die anyway. It has an H Mart and a Macy’s no one goes to.

https://www.gwinnettdailypost.com/multimedia/photos-stranger...

WOW! that site slurps up so much personal data they won't even allow me to view it from Europe in case they violate GDPR... "451: Unavailable due to legal reasons

We recognize you are attempting to access this website from a country belonging to the European Economic Area (EEA) including the EU which enforces the General Data Protection Regulation (GDPR) and therefore access cannot be granted at this time."

Andrew Yang has thought of this (like seemingly everything else). He's calling for amongst other things matching federal grants for helping repurposes dead malls (and the 300 malls he says will likely close over the next 4 years) for other purposes.

https://www.yang2020.com/policies/american-mall-act/

Bright Sun Films on YouTube should get a shout out here. He produces a series called Abandoned, which covers topics like this.

https://www.youtube.com/user/BrightSunGaming

I said it before and I'll say it again: the fact that malls are (justifiably) regarded as a treasured social institution in communities seems ridiculous to me. It's a statement on the failure of a society to provide places for meaningful interaction beyond consumption, or places to feel safe that are not guarded by private security.

Growing up in the 80s, it was a place to meet people. We didn't have the internet. Not everyone had home PCs or gaming systems. Meeting friends at the mall to play some games at the arcade, maybe get a snack at the food court, and just hang out was a decent way to spend time with friends.

Yes, we also went on walks, bike rides, went fishing, played in parks, hiked in the woods, climbed mountains, went to the beach, saw each other at school, played board games, D&D, and many other things.

The mall was one thing to do, among many. I see little reason to disparage those memories just because they aren't as applicable in today's society.

How old are you? Did you never visit a mall in the 80s or early 90s? They were a blast! Nobody hanging out at the mall was lamenting the failure of society to provide anything.

> Nobody hanging out at the mall was lamenting the failure of society to provide anything

This sounds like Plato's Allegory of the Cave: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allegory_of_the_Cave

>>places to feel safe that are not guarded by private security

Its a failure of our society for certain, but at the same time that failure seems to be trending up, there's no needles on the street / homeless camps in malls.

My pessimism might be colored by the video "Seattle is Dying" which I just watched a few weeks ago

Is that a general trend or just location-specific? I've heard about homelessness being a big issue in SF and Seattle but I live in a big city (NYC) and I haven't seen anything like that.

My opinion on this. Cities which see themselves as bastions of progressiveness are less inclined to crack down on homelessness (since many are people who need help rather than punishment). If they try to fix the social issues around it (provide housing, services, etc.) then I suspect you'd see an influx of homeless people into those cities (thus not really solving the problem). Especially in cities where you can live on the streets year round without weather killing you. It's a tough problem because cracking down on homeless people I feel tends to leak into cracking down on other marginalized groups (the poor, minorities, etc.).

I don't want to read anything into this that wasn't intended but are you saying that society should be harder (crack down) on homeless people but not on other disadvantaged people?

I'm saying that it can't just do that even if some people want exactly that. Personally I feel the optimal solution is a nation wide social support program but that will never happen in the US. Beyond that I'm as stumped as everyone else.

Homeless camps are unsanitary which leads to horrible diseases; Drew Pinsky is trying to get action by screaming about typhoid fever and the plague. Its not simply a matter of compassion for the homeless, there is also a public health angle.

https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2019/jun/1/drew-pinsky-...

I live in Manchester, UK, and this hits the spot. Homeless people move here from less tolerant towns in Southern England, and we end up with a problem. The weather is more like Seattle than SF but pretty tolerable bar a couple of months - which is when all alarms go off and you get huge appeals to find places where to host them to avoid dozens of deaths.

I think of myself as a very progressive guy (son of communists and all) but this is not sustainable, it’s unfair to unload national problems on individual cities just because they are traditionally more compassionate, and it’s obviously unfair to the homeless who end up moving even further away from whatever small support network they have near home.

It is unfair there are so many homeless. It did not used to be like this.

In NYC if you see "homeless people who repeatedly inhabit the same location or establish encampments" report them and they'll be moved on or arrested & their belongings thrown out.

https://portal.311.nyc.gov/article/?kanumber=KA-02253

It freezes in the winter in NYC, which forces homeless people to make contact with the System.

The NYPD also run beat patrols (uniforms on foot, in pairs) which are scarce/absent in SF and Seattle.

Its also a big problem in LA, but I'm not sure about other cities

I'd frame it differently, but, to some extent, that's explicitly what malls were originally designed for.

The idea came from a European architect who was trying to figure out how to create something that fills the same social niche of being a combination commercial center and social gathering place that you get out of the center of a European town, but adapted for the sprawled-out car-centric towns that exist in North America.

As someone who grew up in the 90s, I have fond memories of meeting friends at the mall.

Yeah, and fuck the Forum in Rome too. Treasured institution? Crass commercialism at its finest, I say.

The Forum in Rome (and the agora in Greek cities) was the total opposite to malls...

Small producers with unique offerings and shops (as opposed to chain franchises), directly integrated within the city (as opposed to an isolated space existing outside of it), a vibrant place for social and political interaction (as opposed to a place for bored teens to shop and eat fast food where nothing political ever happens and citizens are isolated consumers), plus each was unique to the city (as opposed to finding an identical (or nearly identical) mall, with the same shops, in every town in the states...

So the irony is misguided to say the least...

Not to mention that 2000+ years later one would think we could do better than Rome...

The uniqueness was an artifact of the lack of advanced manufacturing and standardization was far lesser period even with things like munition armaments. It is kind of like complaining soldiers soldiers aren't as good at tetsudo formations, aren't as good at swinging swords and spears, and they don't buy every bit of gear they use in spite of being citizens.

Technically we did so much better than the Romans for goods availability across broad distances - aluminum used to be more expensive than gold and platinum (once it was judged as anything but worthless). The Washington Monument being aluminum tipped was showing off US production capabilities.

Now it is used for disposable drink cans which to denormalize things a bit to how /weird/ that would be - it would be like alchemy made gold so cheap that if you dumped a sacks of coins in a beggar's container they would be upset about you pouring garbage on them".

Materially about the only thing we lack in comparison are slaves and in most places legalized prostitution.

The lack of a social space is a valid complaint as my previous paragraphs highlighted the society in which they served changed vastly. Launching your own forum as a mayor wouldn't work as it did before as the nature of transit, employment, and communication changed around it.

Malls did serve as a pedestrian stagnant oasis in a desert of unwalkable road networks. They may not be that great but they were better than many alternatives.

>The uniqueness was an artifact of the lack of advanced manufacturing and standardization was far lesser period even with things like munition armaments.

We still had uniqueness in city stores and shopping arcades far after the age of "advanced manufacturing and standardization", e.g. well into the 70s.

In towns like Manhattan they in fact took pride in their variety of shops, restaurants, etc. and culturally resisted malls and chains and same in several places in Europe. So it's not like "advanced manufacturing and standardization" automatically translates to malls, and bland cookie cutter one's at that.

Besides, my point wasn't that the ancient agora/forum was different from malls because of some virtuous choice - just that it was different, period. If that was out of necessity, that's fine too.

“it’s massively popular but I think it’s dumb so I’m not going to try to understand anything more” is kinda how I read the comment I was replying to. Sorry I got snarky, I’m somewhat surprised I wasn’t downvoted to oblivion.

I’m not a fan of malls personally, but that attitude seems overly dismissive of a phenomenon that engaged a significant portion of the population. Clearly there is something important going on there, even if we might not like it.

Sure, malls were an important phenomenon (and of course popular).

But I'm sure you'll agree something can be important and popular, and at the same time detrimental, no?

Signaling disapproval doesn’t really add anything to the conversation.

Well, I started the thread responding to a snarky one-liner that added even less to the conversation, so there's that.

I replied in earnest with a sizable comment comparing the two things (forums and malls) from several aspects (uniqueness, social function, etc), so that surely added something.

And, no, I'd say "signaling disapproval" does add to the conversation. In fact "signaling disapproval" is a large and necessary part of human conversation, and essential for forming social conceptions and hierarchies...

How meta! You're signaling in favor of signaling! <head explodes>

To me it feels like a testament to our ability to build social bonds and community no matter how silly the setting.

Laughter, family and common spaces trump all.

> places to feel safe that are not guarded by private security.

I never thought of it this way, but this must be most of the draw behind Disney Land.

The gate fee keeps the undesirables out as well.

Much as a bar's cover charge is a filter. Conversation I had a few years back, at New Years:

"Why would anyone pay $100 just to enter a bar?"

"To be at a bar with people who can afford to pay $100 to enter."

A similar role, though different mechanism, is described by Joseph Wood Krutch: "There's nothing like a good bad dirt road to screen out the faintly interested and to invite in the genuinely interested." Often recast as "bad roads make good filters".

https://www.greensboro.com/the-highway-less-traveled/article...

Have you ever tried a park? There are probably 5-10 parks within 5 miles of me including a huge river parks and nature preserves.

People grilling, kids playing, walking/running/biking/kayaking/paddle boarding and people just sitting and relaxing. Lots of social interaction.

If you’re out of grade school a mall is not an appropriate place for social interaction.

There are a lot of places where parks are nearly unusable for months of a year. I'm not in an extreme climate by any measure, but there are 3 months when socializing in a park is at best uncomfortable.

Why do you specify "out of grade school"? Isn't the fact that the mall is the go-to for grade schoolers just as big a problem? Where are kids and adults supposed to hang out in a group without having to host in their small home?

Nearly 5 months here in Phoenix... some seem to like the heat, I'm just not one of them. From mid-may until early October is just uncomfortable outside imho. Thank god for remote start and air conditioning.

On the flip side, the indoor malls used to provide a public air conditioned space people could flock to, at least on the weekends. Much like movie theaters used to be by themselves. Now they're being torn down, and sprawling outdoor malls with mister systems are constructed. In some ways better, in others not so much.

In the end, will it really matter? The older I get the more I want to move to a smaller town and work remotely. I miss people being friendly and in less of a miserable rush overall.

Gyms, parks, bars, and restaurants are the usual suspects. Dog parks are great too. I’m also trying to get into a community garden and take a class at an art center, I’ll likely be on the younger side in the last two.

Kayaking (not whitewater) and fishing are my two favorites especially if you combine the two. I usually talk to any fisherman I see and people come up to me at the ramp to chat.

None of those places are meant as hangout locations, and all of them require paying. Malls were useful to kids because being there was free for essentially an unlimited amount of time. Sure, you'd buy a soda once in a while, but that's not enough to be allowed to spend 4 hours in a bar or restaurant.

A closer use case would be neighborhood centers, but in my area, those are mostly closed in the evenings or at least reserved for private use.

Where do you live that you have to pay to access a public park?

Read the rest of the thread. Parks aren't really an option for about 1/4 of the year where I live.

>If you’re out of grade school a mall is not an appropriate place for social interaction.

The local mall used to open early for older people to meet and do their daily exercise walks. Depending on the climate and time of year, parks are not always usable.

True and the elderly can’t tolerate heat outside either. The only difference is they come for socialization and exercise. GP was talking about social interaction around consumption.

If you’re not depressed enough, When I was growing up, the McDonald’s embedded in WalMart in a rural town was the social highlight for a disturbingly large number of people.

>the fact that malls are (justifiably) regarded as a treasured social institution

Wait, people think malls are "treasured social institutions" ? I think it's just neat to look at creepy old malls that used to be full of people. I wonder if there's a name for that? Like the thrill of sneaking into school at night when no one was there.

I'm not sure if this qualifies as it came from a website and YouTube channel [1] whose author created neologisms for emotions that do not have a descriptive term, but the word "kenopsia" [2] might fit. I stumbled across this website while browsing a reddit thread about visiting your school at night [3].

[1] https://www.dictionaryofobscuresorrows.com

[2] https://www.dictionaryofobscuresorrows.com/post/27720773573/...

[3] https://old.reddit.com/r/nostalgia/comments/a5ljsp/that_weir...

We're deliberately getting government out of the business of harassing marginalized people in public spaces for others' comfort. It's not an accident or a failure that public spaces are uncomfortable.

     ...regarded as treasured social institution in communities seems ridiculous to me.

I'm going to hazard a guess that you were not part of that community, either due to your age or interests[0]. However, you made a point that compelled me to think, mainly because I do have fond memories of the trashy mall we used to hang out at[1].

So, as much as I sort of jumped to defend myself as a member of that sort of society, it's somewhat true. But how were social interactions ever handled well in the past? People interact around doing things. At times, we go out just to interact, but interaction is usually a side-effect/part of something else we're doing[2]. Prior to the internet, Amazon was the mall. You had department stores that carried a diversity of products all on their own, and specialty stores that covered the odd. As rents went up, the specialty stores disappeared and the malls all became, somewhat, identical.

The malls died partly due to the collapse of the anchor stores, but partly because they became boring. While the "anchor stores" (Sears, JC Penny, Macy's) were always important, they became the only reason to go to the mall. You knew the "mall brands" (Things Remembered, The Discovery Store, Spencer's, Wetzel's Pretzels, Sbarros) -- hell, you knew when you received a "mall gift" (a gift from one of said stores that's cheap, over-priced and an attempt at being unique). And as an added bonus, unlike all of the "modern malls", you only had to freeze, briefly, while walking from your car to the store in the half-foot of snow.

But I digress -- for me, the explanation is a little less ominous: We buy a lot of crap. When you needed something, the mall was the most likely place where you'd find it, and you'd probably find it at a price that was on-par with a discount free-standing store (K-Mart) but had a greater guarantee that all of the things you needed would be able to be handled in one trip. This brought people to the mall. As a result, in the 90s, when you just wanted to interact with someone -- anyone -- you went to the one place where there was a lot of people interacting.

It's not that "society failed to provide a place" -- it's that "society" isn't a thing. It doesn't care. The mall became "the place" because we were using it served a useful purpose. The service it provided is now provided by a more efficient means. Some of that interaction, however, is also more efficient[3].

[0] Maybe you weren't all about orange chicken at Panda Express. That's OK. :)

[1] It's funny, because as an adult, I think of the fun times/friends/experiences that we had at the mall -- mostly being teenage boys, looking at teenage girls -- but I see the whole thing as silly, and the mall always felt -- even back then -- like a bit of a "white trash place to hang out".

[2] Even when the explicit purpose is to interact such as a first date -- first dates. I've had "5-hour interactions" by accident, but the date started as "Let's grab lunch/dinner", not "Let's sit in a chair and talk for 5 hours".

[3] There's something to be said about trading the "meaningless face-to-face interaction with strangers paid to be friendly" with the "meaningless emoticon left on a curated wall in reaction to an inane comment from our closest hundreds of friends".

As discussed in another recent thread[1], malls contribute to myopia in young people. Actually, that study just says that not spending enough time outside in sunlight is the cause. But that's what happens when kids spend most of their free time in malls.

[1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16948264

Hosting co Rackspace's HQ is a former mall in San Antonio, Texas https://www.nytimes.com/2012/10/31/realestate/commercial/rac...

AboveNet built out a datacenter in a mostly derelict mall in the middle of downtown San Jose. At the time the irony of ecommerce servers in an abandoned mall was fresh and surreal.

Retail Archaelogy is another great YouTube channel on the same subject: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCR2LNeZSqINp0WTd_eWCIGg

Some unexpected racism in the story for the Harding Mall in Nashville, TN:

> Throughout the many years, this mall really saw the tenants come and go. It was no big deal until foreign language people and gangs took over this part of Nashville.

I fail to see racism in the quote, it seems to be describing demographic shift of the mall as it fell out of popularity.

> Then just as Harding Mall thought it was the end, it was not. Due to the high levels of foreign people and foreign languages, a local enteprenuer saw hope in the old mall cinema. He leased the space and ran movies that cost about 50% less than what other theaters charge today and they were all foreign speaking films.

> foreign language people and gangs took over this part of Nashville

This is clearly grouping "foreign language people" and "gangs" together. The phrase "took over" has negative connotations.

It's pretty clearly saying that it is bad that people who speak foreign came into the area, not just neutrally "describing [a] demographic shift of the mall "

What if the two events did actually happen and that these two events were critical in the neighborhood's development?

Entirely my point.

One of the two local malls in my area suffered a similar decline and demographic shift for a time. The half not anchored by a Target and a department store became vacant save for a smattering of small local stores, many owned by enterprising foreigners.

The empty areas became frequent copping spots, and suffered a few drug related shootings and other incidents through the years before the City and the owners cleaned up and started getting more big-ticket tenants back into the mall. Nowadays the mall has sports facilities, a maker space,

That foreigners and "gansters" are involved the decline of an area doesn't make pointing out their coming in with the decline of the mall bigoted.

Ascribing intent to writing such as this says as much about the critic as it does the writer.

> The phrase "took over" has negative connotations.

If you want it to, sure, it absolutely can!

> It's pretty clearly saying that it is bad that people who speak foreign came into the area, not just neutrally "describing [a] demographic shift of the mall "

No, it really isn't clearly saying what you're ascribing. That's your reading into it what you want to see. No one cries racism when an article about affluent whites taking over a neighborhood. This is just a different shift.

>No one cries racism when an article about affluent whites taking over a neighborhood.

People absolutely do, even when words as strong as "took over" aren't used. Whenever race is mentioned wrt gentrification, it's one of the top comments|

For example https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19819695

> With the passage of the Civil Rights Act, we as a society decided that racial segregation was bad, and trying to demonize people people buying homes in a certain area due to their race was wrong

...

> Not okay to tell some one he ought not live somewhere because of his race. This is true regardless of what that race may be.

Well I was clearly wrong to claim "no one," but that has no bearing on whether the user-submitted article referenced was written with actual racial animus as asserted, or was just ill-phrased observation.

I grew up near Nashville and this certainly is a negative connotation.

Sure, you can read into it a negative connotation but that isn't enough to ascribe racist intent.

Dead wrong. Its not the same as overt racism, but it is indeed racist to make sweeping statements about the decline of "x" after such and such group showed up. In this case its more like xenophobia since being a foreigner or outsider to the community is not a race.

As a fluent speaker of foreign I can confirm that is racist.

Ah, but you can also speak English. There's something about speaking any number of languages but not English which predisposes one to crime.

I see your irony, but that's actually a specific case of a more general rule. Not speaking the predominant language of the place you live in will make your life more difficult and cut you off from the people and culture around you. It doesn't take much to see it as a precursor to crime, statistically speaking of course.

In many developing countries it is the other way round, expat enclaves where hardly anyone speaks the local language can be safer than the surrounding areas.

>> that is racist.

> speaking [...] not English which predisposes one to crime.

Even in jest, this perpetuates the view that unless they speak English in one's presence they should be viewed as having a propensity to crime.

edit: /s fail. toned down the personal.

I think you need to read the parent comment with a /s at the end.

Here, try the entry for Lafayette Square in Indianapolis:

"The mall itself became a haven for urban stores as white shoppers left for much better malls like the ones named above. Blacks continued to shop at the mall, leading to all kinds of theft and robbery problems."

Granted, as pointed out by other commenters, it's user-submissions. But still, even as a former resident, yikes. (And, as a former resident, not that surprising.)

In the case of lafayette square it seems like white residents abandoned downtown to live in the surrounding suburbs.

Keep in mind that the accounts are user-submitted and thus reflect the perspectives of the individual authors; the way you've put this sounds to me like it implies a site-wide perspective.

"the way you've put this sounds to me like it implies a site-wide perspective"

No it doesn't. He literally refers to one entry.

90’s gang shootings kept a lot of people out of the malls in urban areas, even after crime went down in the 2000’s

The Dead Malls site links to another treasure trove of retail history - http://pleasantfamilyshopping.blogspot.com/

For example, the clip in this post is a fascinating glimpse of Los Angeles in 1954. http://pleasantfamilyshopping.blogspot.com/2012/02/shopping-...

In cold climates, why not turn dead malls into giant indoor parks?

That way people could go jogging in a T-shirt in February.

Especially the malls that have big skylights, you could plant trees and greenery inside.

Maybe install a few pools.

I live next door to a large, modern, outdoor mall (which is very popular; it's a horrible pain in the butt around Christmas). These are obviously not the "dead malls" that the site is referring to.

As a kid from the 90s living two miles from a near-dead mall and within 25 miles of 3 completely dead ones, I'd love to see them convert the walking areas into a large skating rink[0]. Heck, I just ordered a Onewheel and live in an area that is regularly covered in snow -- that'd be a hell of a venue to roll around in.

Granted, it's a terribly inefficient use of the land, after insurance/marketing/staffing costs, etc, it'd probably be impossible in most places to charge a ticket fee that would be profitable.

[0] I have to believe this has been done somewhere, already. The Lions used to play at this horrible venue called The Silverdome in Auburn Hills, Michigan. After they moved to the new stadium in Detroit, they used to do open skating on the weekends around the outer concession area (the large ring you walk through to get to your seats). It was a few bucks plus rental fees and was always busy.

There's a medium sized mall in my town and it's doing very well, it is always quite busy. Similarly there are huge malls in OKC and Tulsa which are doing great, they are full and have the most expensive retail space in the state. However Crossroads Mall in OKC became completely abandoned. I feel like there are lots of other factors involved in the success and failure of malls.

I have occasionally toyed with the idea of buying a dead/abandoned mall and turning it into an enormous adult playground.

They seem to be popular with airsoft players https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HrGdr537jCw

Drone racing would be good too.

One of the local "dead malls" is thriving as a collection of about 3 strip malls surrounding the common parking lot. Each "strip mall" has one or two big box stores and a couple have a line of smaller stores.

Of course, the two story mall itself, with its internal hallways and rows of boutique stores, is gone.

One of the places I remember most vividly from my childhood Christmas times was the "Shopper's World" mall in Framingham, MA (which is indeed listed in the above Dead Malls website). It was a two story mall that was wrapped around and open to a central grassy area. While incredibly dated now looking at pictures, the architecture was pretty cool and memorable. They tore it down in the mid 90's and replaced it with a very boring big-box plaza mall that looks exactly like every other one in existence. It still does a fine business. Makes me sad any time I go there now.

Additionally nostalgic, the local Hostess bakery was across the street pumping its exhaust into the air. Whenever you went to the Shopper's World mall, the whole area smelled like Wonder Bread.

I've always been drawn to weird, haunting, empty urban spaces. I also feel an affinity for vast spaces with huge, elaborate skylights like you find in malls. Throw in some nostalgia and I'm enjoying this YouTube channel.

Google is leasing the Westside Pavilion in LA, looks really nice: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BkggQS0eTSw

Maybe they should advertise their dead mall as a fun hide and seek venue :)

this is pleasantly relevant given today's Ikea Ireland news

It seemed synergistic to me :)

Dead malls should become foodie plazas with childcare for diners.

Here in California I've noticed the newer open outdoor malls are doing better.

Sidenote: isn't it a bit odd that they have a merchandise page?

https://www.cafepress.com/deadmalls

I had a niche site like this back in the day, and I also has a merchandise page built on Cafepress. I didn't sell a single shirt, but I had fun by the idea that I might. Cafepress pages take at most 30 minutes to create.

Heh, me too, and some random guy on the other side of the world actually bought a clock with my logo on it. Other than a few mugs for myself that was literally the only sale I ever made. I often ponder what became of that clock.

Did you ever try to track it down? A documentary connecting buyers and sellers of low-quantity sale cafepress items might be lovely.

Cafepress should automate that connection.

We should fill them with internet-connected theme parks filled with 3D printed displays.

The truth is, every mall right now is a dead mall. Just like every mechanical watch is an inaccurate watch - it seems that most people opt to use malls primarily for emotional reasons.

With Amazon and Walmart now offering next day delivery for almost nothing and the changes in many American neighborhoods - the countdown is on for these vestiges of 1980’s Americana.

I’m flipping the other way. Online is not cheaper anymore, sales tax is a thing and fake and fucked up stuff is too common.

I stopped my Amazon Prime last month. The last straw was 4/6 orders were screwed up (poor quality, damaged by brain dead packaging, fake, repackaged return) and the return process is a pain in the ass.

My wife was scammed by two different fake instagram companies this year. Online commerce is a pit.

I can drive to the mall and get the same stuff at same or better prices. It’s not fake and you avoid most of the other issues by physically looking at the item. If I’m in a rush, I can literally punch in an order at Target now and pull up in as little as 15m and have someone bring it to me.

You should try giving retail another try and truly evaluating it against the slop that Amazon is dishing out.

> it seems that most people opt to use malls primarily for emotional reasons

People also like to try on clothes before they buy them, to make sure they fit.

I completely agree but with services like Prime Wardrobe and Bombfell etc you can have a box of clothes delivered to you in 3 different sizes and return what doesn't fit.

The higher end higher income targetted "boutique" malls are doing very well actually. They may be emotional reasons but that doesn't make their current success less real.

Major urban city ones seem to be doing better as well last I checked - although one component is shopping tourism over lower prices. (Not entirely sure how the border security theater's arbitrary invasiveness, and travel warnings over incidents like shootings, civil forfeiture, etc.).

Apparently the ones dependent upon "service" as opposed to commodities thrive - even if that service is to be fashionable instead of expertise or convenience.

Reply on news.ycombinator.com