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Comment by parasubvert | Hacker News Reader

The monotony of this complaint is driving me crazy.

It's really simple.

1. If you don't care about MacOS, and want a different keyboard, please buy a Lenovo Carbon X1 and leave us happy Macbook Pro users in peace.

2. If your keyboard breaks, Apple will replace it free. The newer gen keyboards generally don't break.

3. If you really can't type on this keyboard and you really love MacOS, there are lots of decent thin Bluetooth keyboards. Microsoft has a great one. It's a small monetary sacrifice you'll need to make for sticking with MacOS. i.e. something we already do when we buy Macbook Pros ;)

I am getting tired of being sneered at for "clearly not understanding my own interests" because I like my Macbook Pro, have never had a keyboard issue, I LIKE TYPING on the keyboard, and would buy another one.

I do hope they change the keyboard radically in the next release so that the laptop posse finds another issue to rage at.

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> 1. If you don't care about MacOS, and want a different keyboard, please buy a Lenovo Carbon X1 and leave us happy Macbook Pro users in peace.

I would gladly get a Carbon X1 or an XPS 15 if my work didn't require me to use macOS (or better: if Apple didn't require me to use macOS to build iOS apps). Sadly I can't and so I'm too stuck with a 2018 MacBook Pro and its crappy keyboard

> 2. If your keyboard breaks, Apple will replace it free. The newer gen keyboards generally don't break.

Author's model is, like mine, quite new since it's the 2018 one. It still sucks and it still breaks. Also, I don't want to wait N days for Apple to fix the keyboard.

> 3. If you really can't type on this keyboard and you really love MacOS, there are lots of decent thin Bluetooth keyboards. Microsoft has a great one. It's a small monetary sacrifice you'll need to make for sticking with MacOS. i.e. something we already do when we buy Macbook Pros ;)

My company has already shelled out a couple grands for this machine, suggesting to use a Bluetooth keyboard is offensive given the price point of this laptop and how cumbersome and uncomfortable using an external keyboard on a laptop is.

> I am getting tired of being sneered at for "clearly not understanding my own interests" because I like my Macbook Pro, have never had a keyboard issue, I LIKE TYPING on the keyboard, and would buy another one.

I'll be honest: I don't care how you use your MacBook and I'm ok if you don't care how other people use them. But with a machine at this price point, which is also labeled _Pro_, an issue like this after three product releases is completely unacceptable

I agree with your general point, the last three generations of MBP keyboards are unacceptable, but just because something has "Pro" in it's name, doesn't make it professional or enterprise or mil spec.

I agree, I too think naming something "Pro" is stupid (especially when you don't have a "non-Pro" counterpart). It just adds a pinch of irony to the whole situation: they're selling it as a professional machine, and it can't stand normal use by a large part of people who use it professionally without failing hard

>> after three product releases

Four. Don't forget the 2015 MacBook Retina.

You're right, I've had completely forgotten that one!

> my work

That’s a lot of words to express that you never feel truly free.

"What I do daily so I can pay rent and eat" sounds better?

> My company has already shelled out a couple grands for this machine, suggesting to use a Bluetooth keyboard is offensive given the price point of this laptop and how cumbersome and uncomfortable using an external keyboard on a laptop is.

I'd honestly describe using the built-in keyboard (and especially trackpad) on most laptops as cumbersome and uncomfortable.

Unless you really need to have a mobile workstation - running between meetings, conference rooms, into lots of labs/industrial environments where you can't bring a laptop cart with monitor/keyboard...why would you not dock the machine?

Even if you prefer the feel of the keyboard or trackpad, wouldn't you want the ergonomics to be better than a laptop if you're working on it all day? A pair or trio of 20+ inch displays mounted just below eye height at about reach distance, ergonomic keyboard with elbows at about 90 degrees, and full size mouse will always be a better workstation than the nicest laptop keyboard, trackpad, and 15" display hinged to said keyboard.

> I'd honestly describe using the built-in keyboard (and especially trackpad) on most laptops as cumbersome and uncomfortable.

I somewhat agree given the topic, but I think carrying, having to charge and balancing a Bluetooth keyboard while you're using a laptop as a laptop (on your lap instead of on a desk) is a tad worse

> Unless you really need to have a mobile workstation - running between meetings, conference rooms, into lots of labs/industrial environments where you can't bring a laptop cart with monitor/keyboard...why would you not dock the machine?

> Even if you prefer the feel of the keyboard or trackpad, wouldn't you want the ergonomics to be better than a laptop if you're working on it all day? A pair or trio of 20+ inch displays mounted just below eye height at about reach distance, ergonomic keyboard with elbows at about 90 degrees, and full size mouse will always be a better workstation than the nicest laptop keyboard, trackpad, and 15" display hinged to said keyboard.

On my desk(s) the laptop is usually docked and connected to external monitors and an external (and ergonomic) keyboard and mouse kit, but I happen to work from trains, planes, airports, coworkings or from the couch sometimes. I also like the ability to just close the lid and quickly move somewhere else if needed, having to use a Bluetooth keyboard for this case is awkward to say the least. At this point, why get a laptop at all?

(disclaimer: I'm 100% pro desktop PCs)

See, the above is what I’m talking about. You’re making excuses to keep yourself miserable. Just ask your employer for an external keyboard. Or get one yourself. It’s no more offensive than buying aftermarket parts for a car.

It clearly is completely acceptable for Apple to act this way, because millions of MacBook Pros are sold and most are fine with them.

Ps. Please tell me more about now external keyboards are uncomfortable. They’re how everyone not on a laptop types, and usually the main example of good keyboards. I would be willing to contribute to an external keyboard gofundme to help resolve your misery.

Sorry, but when you throw around $2000 you'd expect a better product. Especially when you come from an older version of the device. And every customer has the right to complain about this. So no, they won't leave you in peace - they got every right to do so. Apple did a bad thing and took years to recognize it.

(typing on a mechanical keyboard attached to a Thinkpad T480)

Sorry, but Apple did a really great thing with this keyboard. I absolutely love it, and its a shame that its going away because people like to complain on the internet.

which is why the next macbook pro is going back to a scissor design for longer key travel and more reliable performance?

Do you think they’d actually get rid of it if only some people were experiencing this and complaining?

They’re a massive corporation that has realized in some way that it would benefit them the most to move away from that keyboard. They’ve probably seen how much they spend on replacing them and have done user surveys and probably a dozen other things before they reverse a multi year decision that is going to cost them to change their production line for the keyboards.

People rightfully complaining that a grain of sand can stop their kb from functioning correctly.

Typing from my Vortex Race 3 75% w/ cherry pinks

I had someone take a leaf blower and blast dirt and sand all over my keyboard (not on purpose). No issues after I took an air duster to it. This was a new setup and there are sometimes issues with the first generation or two of something. Yes there were issues, but the keyboards are fantastic to type on if you give them a chance.

You seem to be in the minority. I dislike the new keyboard a lot, and looking up info about the new keyboards online almost all of the posts and articles are negative.

https://www.macworld.com/article/3385043/apple-apology-macbo...

https://theoutline.com/post/7315/apple-keyboards-still-suck-...

https://theoutline.com/post/2402/the-new-macbook-keyboard-is...

https://techcrunch.com/2018/09/01/an-ode-to-apples-awful-mac...

https://www.laptopmag.com/articles/macbook-keyboard-flaw-vid...

https://www.laptopmag.com/articles/macbook-keyboard-fail

https://www.theverge.com/2019/3/27/18284042/apple-macbook-ke...

He’s in the minority only if you count “people who get paid to slag on apple for clicks”.

There are millions of happy MacBook Pro users. Only a fraction have these keyboard issues.

I look forward to the great MacBook Pro exodus of 2020, which is supposedly going to happen if you read all these pundits.

My right arrow key fails about 50% of the time. I already replaced the keyboard on this (shit) computer once. I use my MacBook professionally for my work everyday. I can’t easily tolerate losing access to this device for days to get the keyboard replaced again...

I spent two weeks working remotely recently and had to use this keyboard rather than my old, excellent, pre-bufferfly switch external Apple keyboard (link for anyone curious — you can still by their old/good usb keyboards on amazon — https://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B07K7V1FWC?psc=1&ref=ppx_pop_...). My hands and fingers were noticeably more fatigued after using the terrible keyboard. My coworkers commented about how much more typos they noticed in slack than normal.

I absolutely hate this computer — not in a “complain about little things that bother me way” - in a “this device is by far the least favorite apple device I’ve ever owned” kind of way. I dislike this computer at every level not because small issues — because of large, major, fundamental problems.

To paraphrase the words of Michael Bolton in Office Space: “Why should we change when Apple’s keyboard is the one that sucks?”

> 2. If your keyboard breaks, Apple will replace it free. The newer gen keyboards generally don't break.

This is not true. My keyboard broke and has been replaced with the same generation keyboards. I asked the apple store about it before they start any reparation, they told me they would never replace with a newer generation. (MacBook Pro 2018, a few weeks after Apple introduced the new butterfly keyboards.) I am located in Paris, France, if it matters.

You’re not missing out on anything. I have the latest revision of the butterfly design and already had to send in for replacement. The design is useless and none of their bandaid fixes make it reliable.

The topic of this article is, quite clearly, "MacBook Pro keyboards are unreliable", not "I don't like typing on MacBook Pro keyboards".

If yours is still reliable, that's great. That doesn't take away from the new keyboards being unreliable for an unusually large majority of users.

It’s not unreliability for a majority, though. That would imply over 50% of laptops have required repairs, which is a ludicrous number. There is literally no evidence of that.

A vocal minority, yes. That can’t seem to accept that it is a minority.

If you follow the rule of 1-9-90, for every outspoken person in the community, there are 90 others who are silently working around the issues with their keyboard.

And does it really matter whether it’s a minority or a majority? Perhaps I should have worded it as a “significant number of users” to avoid the hangup on one word.

It does matter if it’s a minority or a majority! Words like “completely unacceptable”, “should be illegal”, “never again” are thrown around with abandon, painting a false picture of what’s actually going on: a substantial quality issue for a minority (10-20%?) number of users, but perceived by social media participants to be a vast majority (60%+).

Misperceptions such as these lead to lots of mistaken beliefs about far reaching issues.

As you elucidate in your first point people can choose with their wallet. However, I think that blog posts and complaints are another, perhaps stronger, way of impacting change. People may still like a product, they may still want to buy a product, so a complaint is the only signal which can let a company know how to improve.

It’s unfortunate that you are getting sneered at for liking the keyboard though. It’s step too far when the complaint targets other users who enjoy the product and doesn’t focus on the product itself.

the new macbook pro keyboard sucks and a lot of users are complaining about it. apple should do something, not blame the users. I personally hate it, but I'm stuck with it.

it's not like we have a choice, we use whatever our company gives us and we can't just ask for another keyboard because we don't like our laptop. at least not in my company.

> because I like my Macbook Pro, have never had a keyboard issue, I LIKE TYPING on the keyboard, and would buy another one.

In general I've found that slow typers are the people saying things like this. Nobody with a history of speed at a keyboard can be satisfied with a tablet-like KB, let alone one with the gigantic palm-magnet touchpad.

When people profess their love for the butterflies, I carefully observe their typing style. Palms held high, fingers pecking like bird beaks. And always, always very slowly.

See, here we go again, more sneering. I have been using keyboards for 35 years and type 100+ wpm with my MacBook Pro.

People just can’t accept that a majority of users aren’t having problems.

A lot of people are stuck developing on macbooks if they're creating mobile apps

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