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Maybe learn about stoicism. I have two children, and watching them experience life for the first time is the most fulfilling thing I've ever seen. I was 38 when my youngest was born, I'll be 40 in November.

Stoicism teaches that we all will die, and true death is when we're forgotten, but more than that we need to only worry about the things we can change, or the things we have 'some' control over, but stop worrying about stuff we have zero control over. Another teaching is that if you focus on the fact that you're just worm food, for a few minutes every day you can learn to appreciate the small time you have hear.

Given, when I was in the grips of depression I shared your nihilism about forming bonds, and I'm still an introvert, and I used to be religious (Mormon), now I'm agnostic, though I think there's a 5-10% chance of an afterlife (our mind is just energy right?), I do not think a supreme being exists --especially a narcissist who demands fealty and worship.

Trust me if you ever do settle down and have children, it'll change you. Also -- you learn that even without an afterlife there is still so much beauty and inspiration in this world to appreciate. Think about it, you've been given a gift. As far as we know we're the only intelligence in the entire universe. If that is true then only you and those of us born human on this rock will ever know what intelligence is like. We're the only ones ever to understand science, and build technological achievements. Only we can appreciate the beauty of a space, or a sunset, or the love of family.

Without those experiences then yeah there's nothing holding us here, and why wait till you die of natural causes? I thought about that a lot when I was depressed, and losing my religion, then I had my children and wanted to get better for them so I got help and learned to enjoy the beauty of life regardless of what happens after.

I appreciate your response and I can certainly understand and respect the gravity and life changing nature of having children.

That said, despite many a biological (and even cognitive) drives toward procreating, I continue to refuse to do it. Until I can look around and see a world that I agree with, one where bad things don't happen to good people, where children don't get leukemia, where random car accidents don't leave you crippled for life, then and maybe only then would I even consider it.

Take my unwillingness to procreate as a big middle finger to life itself; As big of a fuck you (short of killing myself - which i have no interest in) as I can possibly give. Feedback to the creator if you will... that I just don't like what they've done. Yea life is beautiful in many way, but on a whole it desperately needs a revision.

I may adopt one day. It's the least I could do with this mindset. Help an innocent child that neither asked, nor possibly even wants, to be alive. If I could improve their life then that's worth something. That'd be a hell of a lot more "life changing" than pumping out a mini me.

This is a deeply nihilist position.

FYI religion is not 'some guy in a cloud' and I'll suggest there's the possibility that a narrow interpretation of Scientific Materialism has led you to your state of depression.

Why so many smart people are unable to see past this material construct is beyond me, like a generation stuck in a mental Chinese finger puppet.

Consider for a moment that life is not something material, but that which is expressed through it, and it's a wonderful opportunity, worth continuing.

That said, there are plenty of others around to pick up the slack of building the future.

I’m the exact same way. I look around and think “no way am I bringing offspring into this world.”

I got really lucky being OK at programming and finding my way into a decent paying career, but it’s so disheartening to see so many around me struggle with no end in sight.

Add to that climate change, and it’s definite no for me.

>If there is no afterlife, then what IS the point of this life?

If there is no afterlife, no elsewhere, then the takeaway is not that nothing matters, or that life has no point. Rather, it is the opposite: what we do in the here and now is the only thing that will ever matter.

This! This is my philosophy, I picked it up from some stoic readings and teachings. Either you can be depressed and hate life and wallow in depression or take the easy way out or you can stop and find beauty in the 80-100 years we're given while on this rock. I used to be depressed and wanting to take the easy way out, now that I have two little boys -- I'm afraid of missing out on their lives.

Missing just one major milestone scares me, but I know I could die anytime and miss their graduation, or wedding, or grandkids -- it makes me appreciate everything more.

> I used to be depressed and wanting to take the easy way out, now that I have two little boys

This is what I don't understand. You were depressed, recognized life as meaningless and without persistence, and yet you felt like it was a good idea to bring someone else into this world?

I'll truly never understand the rational of people who are able to convince themselves of what they want to hear. I gather that you weren't all that depressed to begin with, and your view of the world not very bleak at all, if you felt like bringing other lives into it was a good idea.

That, or selfishness is something you're not averse to.

I was more 'numb' and going with 'the flow'...doing what my wife wanted..cause I really didn't want/care about anything. Life was just a surreal numbness, so why not just let her be happy if I couldn't be... But now I find joy in so many things, I get angry as fuck when I see someone on tv hurting a little child in a movie or on the news, I have new dad emotions I never knew existed.

I cry whenever I hear the song Fade in / Fade out, because I know someday I'll cease to exist and my kids will go on without me, and I worry about how they will do, or what I'll miss... I also traded depression in for 24/7 anxiety about whether or not the kids are going to find a way to kill themselves that I haven't thought about. The other day my 2 year old came out of his room with a belt wrapped around his neck... scared the shit out of me. It was hung up but apparently he climbed on something to get it down...

I'm not numb and disassociated anymore. I enjoy the now, and live for the small moments. Everyone is selfish. Even mother theresa --nobody does good works without expecting something in return. Is it selfish to have kids? I don't think so. Do dogs and cats have selfish tendencies then? What about all other animals? If so then it's just natural to be selfish and I'm just being 'natural'.

My main point was until you're a father you'll never experience the whole gamut of life's experiences and will miss out on something amazing -- getting to relive your childhood through your kids. Not to mention children tend to keep you younger longer, mine will be graduating when I'm almost 60.

> Is it selfish to have kids?

With respect... at no point did you even describe the impetus to have kids as a means of gifting someone else an existence. You describe your reasoning as being entirely for your own gain... So how can you not see it as selfish?

Does that mean it's WRONG? No. I'm not saying you're a bad person, or that you did the wrong thing. You're 100% right when you say that it's "natural". I'd even say that for the community at-large, NOT having kids is more detrimental than otherwise.

I just can't bring myself to do it though. When I think about having kids I immediately see my hypothetical child, in my minds eye, being born with cerebral palsy, or childhood leukemia, or bi polar disorder. How could I look them in the eye and say, I'm sorry? I'm sorry, I knew it was a risk and I still chose to roll the dice. I'm sorry that I struggled my entire life with finding meaning, and true happiness, but I still chose to bring you into this to fill a void in myself. Now you get to suffer, like I did, until you choose to bring another life here.

No. It stops here.

Clearly, I disagree with the natural state of things. I don't think it's fair to subject someone to a life they didn't ask to live when you simply can't guarantee them anything. Their life isn't, or rather shouldn't, be in my hands. I'm not god.

Someone should assess whether they want this or not. Life is one big dice roll, and they should be able to assess the risk themselves before taking the plunge. Obviously that's not possible. Obviously the world I describe isn't the one we live in.

Why form bonds, and relationships, and become close with people...

To have something like the full gamut of experiences in your short time on earth. It is hard to describe, but as a lifelong atheist I still think of the birth of my children as something like a transcendental experience. So intense and so many emotions. I do understand the logic of not having children is a mercy because nonbeing is less harm than existence. I think it is flawed in thinking about pain and loss in black and white terms as "bad" and therefore to be avoided. This will lead to a really narrow life. Kids love to make sand castles at the beach, and they cry when they get knocked over by the next wave. Does that mean that they should never make sand castles?

It's quite possible to live an enjoyable and fulfilling life without believing in an afterlife. And if you enjoy life, it doesn't seem so bad to bring others into it, especially if you enjoy each others company.

You sound like you might be depressed/feeling hopeless. And if you think that's the case, I'd highly recommend finding a therapist to talk to. Try new ones until you find one that you click with. They might be able to help you find a bit more happiness in life.

Years back I came up with answers for those questions that work for me where it doesn't require for religion or afterlife and still makes me want to wake up the next day, YMMV. Also, I'm not religious, don't believe in after life, in spirits/souls and don't have children, yet I think I have a pretty happy and content life and almost never am affected by bouts of long term sadness/depression.

> If there is no afterlife, then what IS the point of this life?

First of all, think about the question itself. Why does this (and our existence in it) require a "point" to existence itself or a "purpose". Both of those concepts are human level concepts, they have no meaning to the universe. It's like asking "why isn't life fair" or "why isn't life rewarding good people", all those (fair and good) are human concepts that the universe cares not for. We are naked monkeys living on a tiny blue planet in a huge universe, to expect reality to conform to our evolved concepts of modeling the world is ultimate hubris.

Once I realized this I stopped asking the question. There is no "purpose of life" because the question itself is silly/absurd. Then the next question is, does it matter that there is no purpose?

I looked back at everything that brings joy to me in my day to day life and none of those things relate to life having a purpose or not. I am happy because I exercise and makes me feel good after it or makes me feel fit and healthy. I am happy because I live with someone I love (15+ years and going) and they love me and we share our existence, we enjoy time together, develop internal jokes, help each other (which in turn makes one feel good), comfort each other. I am happy because I have a satisfying job, smart coworkers, interesting projects and I'm well payed and can afford a good life. I am happy because I am still healthy and don't have to think about mortality every second or deal with pain or are afraid of the future.

I realize that makes me a very lucky person, but I also realize that none of the things above have anything to do with "purpose" in life or anything like that. Nor do those things exclude having kids, on the contrary, I imagine having kids would bring even more personal satisfaction and possibilities to be happy about. Having friends/developing relationships makes us feel good, we are evolved to be social beings, so that's why we do it, not because there's a purpose to life.

Hope this helps

Does anyone believe in an all powerful being in the sky? That's such a superficial strawman that it just sounds like an excuse to not investigate.

Given that you appear to feel strongly about this, you owe it to yourself to look into this more deeply.

Well, I'm certainly open to being convinced otherwise. And I have made efforts to understand the world. Existential thinking is not foreign to me, in the slightest. That's lead me to - among others - books like "Why does the world exist" by Jim Holt.

Ultimately, despite everything I've read and watched, including an upbringing in the Christian church... I can only draw the conclusion that we just don't know. We have no idea if there's a super being, but there's decent reason to BELIEVE that there isn't. Belief ironically, IS what it boils down to. I just don't believe in 2019, that the likelihood is an all present God.

The world is a hard place, and belief that offers hope and something worth putting your faith in is hard to come by. If you have not found a belief that offers hope, then keep looking.

I feel like I've been looking my entire life. Maybe I'm just not looking hard enough, or maybe it's a lost cause.

It's true I haven't traveled to eastern asia and studied under the tutelage of a monk, I haven't taken ayahuasca from a shaman in the Amazon, I haven't drank the cool-aid at a Mormon retreat, or attended a Joel Osteen mega church sermon.

I just grew up in America, in a Catholic family. Went to church most Sundays until I was a teenager. There's a vide of me at a young age, asking (essentially) why we are here/alive. Seems that I'm still asking that.

So maybe you could say I haven't really been looking. But honestly, I think you have to believe in something a priori. You don't go to a shaman in the amazon because you want to believe, you go because you already do and you want to validate that.

kids ARE your only hope of an afterlife

How are kids - in any way, shape, or form - an afterlife?

They are an independent person, with independent thoughts + suffering.

When my Dad dies (for example)... he's not going to somehow magically continue to enjoy the work, and relationships, that he's enjoyed while alive.

His DNA continues.

Username checks out, as they say.

See the writings of Plato for an argument on the forms of immortality. Having children is one of them.

Of course, one can disagree but it's not a new concept.

Sort of depends on your opinion about what "constitutes" a person. Is just the physical body? Is it the genes? Is it the bonds they form and the memories they make? Is it the difference they made in the lives of their kind ; effected social change, contributed to research or in general been a good influence on other? All of these tend to live on after the physical body is no more. There is no mystic element to it. Just plain facts.

“I mean, they say you die twice. One time when you stop breathing and a second time, a bit later on, when somebody says your name for the last time.”

A legacy is the closest we really get to an "afterlife". Children offer two kinds of legacy. One is the memory of you, the other is the continuation of your genes.

My kids are me.

When I see them walking like me, taking like me and arguing with me like I did with y parents... That's my afterlife.

Yea............ With respect, we are truly two completely different people. I'll just never understand the narcissism behind procreating to extend ones own life / legacy. I totally understand btw that it's you who is normal, and me that has the strange perspective on this.

My hypothetical kids, that I could have, are certainly not "me".

They'd be actual real people. People who suffer, and hurt, and struggle. People who have a not insignificant chance of ruminating in the same way I do, about the state of the universe, but still aren't me.

If there is no afterlife, then the only way to carry your ideas and genes into the future is to have children. It seems like the destruction of religion would get more people interested in having children as it's the only "higher" function that exists for mortal beings.

Regardless of today's trends, in 100 years the only people who will exist will be those who's parents had children.

> ideas and genes into the future is to have children

This thinking disturbs me.

I don't care about my "ideas" and my genes. I care about being alive, actually being alive. Your "ideas" and genes being passed on, is nothing even close to the afterlife I'm talking about. Not even close.

> I don't care about my "ideas" and my genes.

You are in the minority. For most living beings, reproduction is the prime objective.