Electoral College Members Can Defy Voters’ Wishes, Court Rules
nytimes.com
nytimes.com
And probably would've been beaten to death or hanged in public for the wrong form of dereliction of that duty. ;- )
We do have records of the arguments that were made for the elector system mandated by the Constitution, and they demonstrate that your "precise idea" is a fabrication.
Here is some reading for you: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federalist_No._68
It had almost nothing to do with the practicality (or lack thereof) of the popular vote. The debates focused upon balancing the right of the people with the right of the states, i.e., the ability of states with large populations to make the votes of smaller states irrelevant. Hamilton also focused on the need for trusted electors so that the people both had a say, and trusted individuals could avoid rash populism. I.e., the value of a representative form of election. The transient nature of the college was also important. The electors would have one task, and then be dismissed. They could not be people with a vested interest, such as members of congress, governors, etc. This also made them less likely to be influenced by foreign powers, as they would not be electors long enough to be so influenced.
Federalist 68 proposes a mechanism we have not used since before the Civil War. The ballot would have been write-in only, and the name you were writing in was a person who lived in your own state, not a presidential candidate.
but to men chosen by the people for the special purpose
The choice of SEVERAL, to form an intermediate body of electors, will be much less apt to convulse the community with any extraordinary or violent movements, than the choice of ONE
Unfortunately, the Founders appear to not have anticipated the wholesale corruption the party system would employ to sabotage both common sense and deliberate design, by making laws at state level to explicitly make Electors not from the general population but exclusively party loyalists: people who have sworn money and allegiance to their respective party. Who and what you are really voting for when you tick a box for a candidate, is not the candidate, but the candidate's party and that party system, and the state laws say the popular vote result is to cause that party's pre-selected loyalists to become Electors.
What we have isn't anything like Federalist 68.
It's a pattern that happens all over the government. The masses are the first filter, a second pass is done by a smaller (generally more recognized) few, and then reconcile until everyone is satisfied.
But you are not wrong in your basic argument. The corruption of the college by the party system is a travesty. We may as well have a parliament / prime minister at this point. It would be preferable to the current system, IMO, at least in being more honest.
Personally, I think it's a necessary balance to Prosecutorial discretion however.
A few states recently enacted an unconstitutional law to attempt to void the faithless electors vote, and all this ruling does is clarify that those state laws were indeed unconstitutional.
No, according to the court's opinion ("slip opinion"), starting at p.73 of the PDF [0]. I've posted excerpts in a top-level comment.
Federalist 68 says Electors were to be deliberative people, people chosen for this task, and not to any preestablished body. Electors chosen from the general mass by their fellow citizens will best be able to carry out "complicated investigations". There is no complication or investigation in the current process! It's 180 degrees from Federalist 68.
Nothing was more to be desired than that every practicable obstacle should be opposed to cabal, intrigue, and corruption. These most deadly adversaries of republican government might naturally have been expected to make their approaches from more than one querter, but chiefly from the desire in foreign powers to gain an improper ascendant in our councils.
The present system lends itself directly to blackmail because those with all the money both choose Electors, and are Electors. They are not chosen from the general mass, they are not chosen by the people. And further:
They have not made the appointment of the President to depend on any preexisting bodies of men, who might be tampered with beforehand to prostitute their votes;
What persons could possibly be more of a prostitute than party loyalists? We would be better off if the Electors were randomly selected from the general population, minus the expressly listed people in Federalist 68: politicians or other person holding a place of trust or profit.
They may well be wrong, stupid, or even malignant. They certainly have some strange bedfellows: winning elections or votes means crossing that 50% level, which requires making friends with people whose interests are only partially aligned with yours (as opposed to the people whose interests are diametrically opposed to yours). Their loyalty is at least partly sunk-cost fallacy: it takes a long time to be a party insider and they can't just hop over to any other party without losing those years of trust built up.
But what they aren't, is prostitutes. For better or worse, they believe.
But that's not tge world we've got anymore.
Rule by a demagogue is the primary weakness of a democracy and it's a pretty bad one at that.
Parliamentary Democracies have fared much better in recent times.
You're forgetting that we are Constitutionally allowed 1 congress rep per 30k. Right now it's at 1 per 790k. Thats already demagogue territory.
Also, forgetting the 17th Amendment and the original intent of Senators.
You have a very narrow way of rationalizing the destruction of an actual bulwark against tyranny.
At least in theory (putting aside any voter suppression efforts), the US today has near universal suffrage for all adults, with the only remaining restrictions being placed on felons (of which we have many). So it really doesn't make sense: We functionally have the popular vote, but we have this weird legacy layer on top that, in 2000 and 2016, selected someone who lost the popular vote.
The EC performed to spec in my opinion. Nobody, myself included, likes that outcome, but the truth is Clinton didn't do the work needed to win the election.
Now, she had a number of challenges, but she was also running to sell the world on the idea of her being the leader too. No excuses. I feel strongly about that.
The primary reason I feel that way is she flat out could have won.
A shift in campaign strategy, something her own staff urged her to do many times as they saw the numbers, would have sealed the deal. Visit Wisconsin, do some real work in the Rust Belt, and talk about jobs, not just education, or other similar things that put the fault on those who are expected to vote, and she would have won easily.
What actually happened was a run on popular vote totals. I'm told that was to increase the legitimacy of her win, and lay the foundation for a mandate type win. Ok, that's all fair, valid, reasonable, but for the fact that the basic work all that is predicated on simply was not done.
The EC more or less forces that work to get done too.
I'm fine with the EC as it exists today. An awful lot of the EC discussion is driven by a bad outcome, and I am just not sure that makes sense, or at least it does not make sense without a super honest, raw analysis of what actually did happen.
Whining about it now is kinda like crying that you lost a game of Chess even though you took the most pieces.
I really like your Chess analogy.
Fact is Clinton did not have her priorities in order and she lost because her choices did not result in her doing the work to win. They did result in a large pop vote total though.
Sure seems to me this is a discussion on how best to run a campaign that offers up a compelling VOTE FOR proposition to win, rather than a "let's ditch the EC" conversation.
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Edit, due to rate limit, intended for comment below.
You are right. It's not!
So then, those people looking to be leaders should take the rules in play at the time we are making the democracy happen pretty seriously right?
I think so, which is precisely why I authored the comment above. Doing the work to win the election involves working the process as it is defined at the start of the contest, not what one may wish were true at that time.
Secondly, should we change that process, and I'm not opposed to doing that, should we not change that process based on actual problems, not contrived ones based on poor judgement?
I will read any response with great interest -->Tomorrow. The rate limit is not a negative thing. Time to move on to better things. Cheers all!
What would happen if you rally all the assorted fringe groups that are currently dispersing their votes and unite them with all the mainstream voters who are holding their nose as well as all the couch potato nonvoters and came up with a candidate a truly comprehensive electorate would really end up picking?
You'd probably throw both Drumpf and Hillary out and put in (another) Hollywood megastar or some charismatic Bible thumper.
[1]: https://www.historycentral.com/elections/Federalist.html
I for one won’t pay any tribute to them than exceeds their merit.
The Wikipedia article on them has a surprisingly good discussion on their use in the courts.
In essence, the trial court took a shortcut — in software terms, an early return or -exit: The trial judge concluded that, when Colorado's secretary of state removed a member of the Colorado delegation to the Electoral College (for having voted for Kasich instead of Clinton), the removed "elector" had no legal right to sue for nominal damages because the Colorado secretary of state had the legal authority to remove the elector. The trial judge therefore summarily tossed out the removed elector's lawsuit.
The appellate court panel concluded that the trial judge got the law wrong, and therefore the removed elector did have the right to sue for nominal damages. The panel sent the case back to the trial court so that the lawsuit could (in theory) proceed normally.
The state has the right to appeal further, to the entire appellate court sitting "en banc" and/or to the Supreme Court.
Here are some excerpts from the three-judge appellate panel's opinion (which I find compelling, incidentally):
"[T]he Supremacy Clause is broader than preemption; it immunizes all federal functions from limitations or control by the states." Slip op. at 75 (citation omitted).
"Unlike the President appointing subordinates in the executive department, states appointing presidential electors are not selecting inferior state officials to assist in carrying out a function for which the state is ultimately responsible. Presidential electors exercise a federal function—not a state function—when casting their ballots. Burroughs, 290 U.S. at 545. When undertaking that federal function, presidential electors are not executing their appointing power's function but their own." Id. at 82-83.
"As the text and structure show, the Twelfth Amendment allows no room for the states to interfere with the electors’ exercise of their federal functions." Id. at 86.
"Dictionaries from the relevant period support Mr. Baca’s contention that the drafters of the Twelfth Amendment intended electors to exercise discretion in casting their votes for President and Vice President." Id. at 88.
"As these sources reflect, the definitions of elector, vote, and ballot have a common theme: they all imply the right to make a choice or voice an individual opinion. We therefore agree with Mr. Baca that the use of these terms supports a determination that the electors, once appointed, are free to vote as they choose." Id. at 90 (footnote omitted).
"In summary, the text of the Constitution makes clear that states do not have the constitutional authority to interfere with presidential electors who exercise their constitutional right to vote for the President and Vice President candidates of their choice." Id. at 93.
"Although we concur with [Colorado's] review of historical practice [of elector pledges], we cannot agree that these practices dictate the result the Department seeks. First, and most importantly, the practices employed—even over a long period—cannot overcome the allocation of power in the Constitution. McPherson, 146 U.S. at 35–36. Second, there is an opposing historical practice at play: a history of anomalous votes, all of which have been counted by Congress." Id. at 99. "This uninterrupted history of Congress counting every anomalous vote cast by an elector weighs against a conclusion that historical practices allow states to enforce elector pledges by removing faithless electors from office and nullifying their votes." Id. at 101.
The number of people struggling economically rose to a majority during Obama. That has not gone without notice.
Trump, whether it's true or not, positioned himself as an outsider. That's savvy, and potent in these times. Economic performance from both parties, in terms of ordinary working people, has been poor. It's tough for way too many people and being networked now, they know it, flat out.
Clinton was seen as Obama 2.0, and that tepid performance, along with 1000+ seat party losses made for a difficult election, given Trumps positioning and willingness to work the crowds. (It's not really a debate as to whether he intended to follow up on any of that rhetoric. He had no intent other than to win.)
All of that added up to populism. People responding to messages aimed at them.
Again, I'm not speaking the merits of the current POTUS. Just that his messaging and positioning was solid populist on economic fronts, and moderate enough on social fronts to make for a compelling package.
One must also consider very large numbers of people not voting. That share of people is actually quite large, and is larger than either party base right now. Getting those people involved basically means populist messaging right now too.
It's still going to be a referendum. The economic difficulties are still in play.
Anyway, maybe that helps frame it a bit. And it's just one way to look at it. There are several, likely valid.
Populist may not = popular, and in this case didn't.
Seems like what you're describing is basically ideological consistency: believing the same thing both before and after it suits you, for the same stated reasons (polling places not adequately protecting the integrity of the ballot) on either side.
Hillary Clinton just tried throwing a family friend under the bus because his research led somewhere she doesn't like; does that bother you equally?
No idea what you're talking about. People that don't get their news from biased right wing sources are not usually up to date with the endless Hillary pseudo scandals.
https://twitter.com/QuillnInk1776/status/1163950407569330176
I got my news about this from the horse's mouth, I'd been following the guy's work before Hillary threw him under the bus. This is not a "biased right wing" story, it is a true story.
> No idea what you're talking about. People that don't get their news from biased right wing sources are not usually up to date with the endless Hillary pseudo scandals.
Frankly, how dare you cast those aspersions on me? Take that back. You can't just go calling people cynical, bad-faith actors because they've said something you aren't willing to look in to.
I really do miss the left who were willing to consider that maybe, just maybe, a politician who receives significant monetary and material support from a particular major corporation, is willing to go to bat for that corporation in spite of the facts.
It is no crime for you to be fond of Hillary Clinton, the Doctor himself is, despite what she's done to him this week.
However, not every criticism of her actions is pseudo-something; sometimes it's just something.
You’re right, they’re not even in this conversation, because they’re wondering why it even matters at all.
Well, I'll set your mind-reading aside.
> Why ... start talking about Hillary Clinton’s relationship with ... professor when the original topic was Donald Trump ... 2016 election?
Because Hillary Clinton is in active denial, with a seeming corporate motive, about the election at least as much as you've accused Donald Trump of intending to be. Nobody in that race is clean of this particular accusation.
I brought up the recent example of conduct related to that state of denial specifically because it demonstrates that if we're going to go down that road, nobody will emerge without mud on them.
I haven't really given Epstein's bias charges much of a serious look because the popular summaries don't address a basic question: what would it even mean for you to say that given search term is "biased" towards one candidate or another, unless what people are typing in is "who should I vote for as President?" Even if that's the level at which we're talking about, in what sense was the bias different than, say, if editorial board upon editorial board of newspapers throughout the United States declared support for Clinton, in spite of any history of frequent support of candidates from the opposite party? Isn't it more likely that what people are searching for is information about candidate positions, statements? Maybe news?
Now, maybe this is something that Dr Epstein explains in his more formal research, but why can't he explain it in his popular stuff? Maybe it's so complicated that it defies popular summarization or.... maybe there really isn't a lot of there there. The fact that I can't find answers to any of those questions even where he claims to have detailed methods ( https://aibrt.org/downloads/EPSTEIN_&_ROBERTSON_2017-A_Metho... ) strongly suggests the latter to me.
The combination of crying wolf when it comes to the Clintons and a lack of a hook makes it pretty easy to ignore. Maybe that's why Dr Epstein is primarily finding only right wing borderline propaganda outlets are listening.
Consistency is not one of Trump’s strong points.
This is the bit in particular I'm responding to. Wouldn't it be more worth criticizing to stop saying the election was rigged once you won it?
Nobody here is particularly saying he's generally consistent, though on that matter it can sometimes be said.
People you don't like, you shouldn't rely on them to be wrong and bad in every way just to prove your one point; your foes will have a tendency to let you down on that!
It’s bad to question (without evidence) the legitimacy of an election you lose. It’s bad to question the legitimacy when you win. It’s bad to state in advance that you’ll only accept the results if you win. It’s bad to say that and then question its legitimacy after you win. He did, or said he would do, all of these things.
My question then is, why is it worse to you that he chose to say it was rigged after he was elected? It seems you're saying he should have done the politically expedient thing, and stopped saying it after winning.
Wouldn't you criticize him for that as well?
He could have, for example, said he’d accept the results, period. Or reserved the right to challenge the results if there was evidence of irregularities.
You don’t get to build your very own custom Kobayashi Maru and then complain that it’s a no-win scenario.
Keep in mind that my original comment was a reply to someone who seemed to be implying that Democrats made up accusations that Trump wouldn’t accept the results. I was pointing out that not only did Trump say he wouldn’t accept the results if he lost, he really didn’t accept them even the way it happened. This being bad is a secondary point (although it certainly is bad); the main point is that this was a real thing, not something made up by Democrats.
With the "(without evidence)" part of this, I agree. I think "question" may be too strong a word - "challenge", perhaps. It's certainly bad to challenge election results without evidence of malfeasance.
> It’s bad to question the legitimacy when you win.
I wholeheartedly disagree here. If Trump believes that the election was unfair in some way or that there were attempts to illegally influence it, then he absolutely should question in. Since he won, it would be reasonable for him to have ordered an investigation into it.
> It’s bad to state in advance that you’ll only accept the results if you win.
I think that's certainly boorish, but the action isn't necessarily bad. The man obviously believed he would be a good and faithful President, and apparently believed that Clinton would make a poor President. Why would he challenge the result upon winning, and risk putting someone he believed to be unfit into office?
I must disagree with your last paragraph in the most strenuous possible way. The peaceful and orderly transition of power is by far the most important aspect of democracy, and public faith in elections is a crucial part of that. I don’t care how great Trump thought he was or how awful his opponent was, saying he’ll only accept the result if he wins, with no evidence of any problems with the electoral process, is extremely destructive to the foundation of the whole country. If it was Jesus versus Satan, I’d still expect Jesus to say that he’ll accept the results of the election if Satan wins.
This is a is objectively untrue. You cannot find an in-context quote of Trump saying this 'outright'. You need to apply several layers of hostile interpretation, which the media is happy to do.
Doesn’t take more than one small layer of perfectly reasonable interpretation.
Interpretation Layer 1: He's mocking critics who were saying he wouldn't accept the outcome. Since he's mocking, he's not serious. You have to interpret a mocking response as serious.
Interpretation Layer 2: He never said he wouldn't accept if he lost. You have to infer that yourself.
Interpretation Layer 3: He said 'totally', which often means the alternative is 'not totally'. He could have meant he would just complain about the results, but still accept them. To think he would fully reject them in an outright, actionable way you need to interpret the words in a special way.
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So the original statement was false as I said. Nothing here is even close to 'outright' saying he wouldn't accept the result.
(1) a candidate who said a loss for him meant the system was rigged vs a candidate who, in the end, actually conceded the election
(2) refusing to accept the outcome of the election vs acknowledging the outcome while believing a different system would produce better results
(3) a post that's about the limits of state ability to control EC votes vs a discussion that's about certain forms of structural countermajoritarianism