Hacker News Reader

Comment by toxik | Hacker News Reader

Citation needed on that. Scandinavian work ethic and culture is in my opinion good, and puts emphasis on overcoming hierarchical inertia (e.g. we don't use titles) and lateral thinking in a way that I feel North Americans don't, rather, the emphasis is on "the grind." Putting in insane hours, staying after the boss, etc. A thin veneer of productivity if you ask me. The reason the US excels in business is, I would say, being more willing to sell out their people, though they're probably meeting their match with China and Asia in general now.

View on HN

Well just dropping a link to a news article or a study wouldn't really change things. If you look at who's the one producing major digital innovations it's still USA. Sure the Nordic countries are smaller but it's hard to compete against countries like USA with well educated people with strong work ethic when you're pushing in half the hours.

Sweden sure is doing well with digital innovations but can't say that the rest of the Nordics are performing equally as well. USA still has Silicon Valley which outperforms every other region in the world.

I'm an Estonian, also a nordic country. We have a bunch of things we are years ahead of in terms of digital innovations (https://e-estonia.com/), all while having a 1.3m population. What does the USA do better exactly?

Estonia is certainly performing well. But since it's so tiny it's really hard to compare against a giant like USA. Although much of the same problem applies to Nordics.

We use Google, Facebook, Youtube, Snapchat, Whatsapp, Apple - all American products. Whereas the Nordic countries produce very few major digital innovations used globally.

Also, I didn't know Estonia was a Nordic country.

Well, true, all the big players are from USA. But as far digital innovation inside of a nation go, and for the nation, USA needs to do a lot of catching up. Because while true that USA made a thing called "instagram influencers", it has done very little for its people.

If by Nordic you mean Northern European, then Estonia is Nordic, all tho' often misrepresented as Eastern European.

>> Also, I didn't know Estonia was a Nordic country.

Relevant: https://satwcomic.com/party-crasher

https://satwcomic.com/imposter

https://satwcomic.com/new-nordic

A funny take on why other 'Nordic' countries don't think so

Ok I'm used to considering only Denmark, Norway, Sweden, Finland and Iceland as Nordic countries. They're also the only members of the Nordic council.

Estonia I've always just considered a Baltic country, which I suppose is accurate as well. Not that these definitions really matter anyway.

I still remember Skype before Microsoft. And Nokia before Microsoft :-)

What's your point? The Nordics have a relatively high contribution of "innovations", higher than other countries that don't work "half the hours".

Examples: Linux, Spotify, Unity, King, the radio base stations that your phone might be connected to, ...

But even Linux was ultimately developed in USA. So was/is Unity. I don't know if Linux would've ever been the success it is had Linus Torvalds stayed in Finland developing it.

I'd hope we would have a big list of recent examples of major innovations from the Nordics but unfortunately nearly all the major digital products or innovations seem to be decades old. I can't think of almost any globally really promising Finnish digital startup right now.

> We use Google, Facebook, Youtube, Snapchat, Whatsapp, Apple - all American products.

You say we use them now. But some of these companies are barely past their teenage years. Nokia as a company is around 150 years old, they didnt win fast and they are still in business (but not in the phone business)

How long any of these current, not winners but ”winning it right now” last? Who knows.

They are still young, but they will all fail or ceases to exist eventually and hopefully dont leave cities bankrupt behind them.

Also, we all had instant messages, social networks (very small, geographically) etc. before these behemoths and now days globalism is getting some pushback around the globe, who knows how long and what markets they can later dominate.

But on the other hand, any meaningful comparisons get harder and less relevant for us if we use a time span of the past 150 years. I don't know if it really even matters that much that most companies die eventually. They're still producing lots of value right now. While Nokia is certainly not doing particularly well nowadays despite having a long and partially very successful history.

Edit: year

What does the USA do better exactly?

Well, it seems crass to point this out, but NATO has a big presence in the Baltic states right now because you guys won’t invest in your own defence. So yeah, that is what they do.

That is related to the funding in silicon valley. So many people who want to do startups in europe move to silicon valley.

Yep, that's much of the reason. The whole ecosystem is just incredibly well developed over there.

> ...The whole ecosystem is just incredibly well developed...

The current, or at least historical ecosystem might have been/is silicon valley...But, I'm curious what will happen in the future, when the ecosystem could be more easily replicated elsewhere globally. With regards to digital innovation - assuming products are less about physical goods, and more about digital services - I wonder when budding entrepreneurs will more often be able to generate startups elsewhere because enough of an ecosystem exists elsewhere in other regions/countries that ALSO have great well-being-related environments? I mean, if i were starting a company today, and i wanted customers that could afford to pay higher fees, maybe I wouldn't focus on the U.S. because more and more citizens have less disposal income? (After all, more and more U.S. folks are just trying to keep their heads above water, etc.) Maybe i would launch my startup in another region of the world because those customers are somewhat already comfortable in their lives - due to their nation's social safety net operating model - and would be more willing to part with their money to pay for my startup's higher fees (i.e. signing up for my imaginary startup's higher-margin price plans as opposed to the cheapo plans which have slim margins)?? In response, I suppose U.S. enterprises and especially those in U.S. public office, could try nudging the ecosystem to make U.S. more competitive...but that - i feel - just brings us to either companies working U.S. workers harder (because THAT is what they feel will save the day), or public office folks trying to "bring back" the silicon valley of the good ol' days...instead of - oh i don't know - innovating at the social operating model level. It's an interesting thought experiment. But, to rest on the laurels that silicon valley WAS an important ecosystem, and assuming (or hoping?) that it will continue to be the center of the innovation universe - to me - feels like its full of folly.

I don't think, at all that Amazon, Facebook, Google, Tesla, SpaceX, Microsoft, Apple, Netflix, +++ could have happened in Scandinavia. Even our small success stories are sold to foreign investors before they have time to grow big.

It's harder to determine the cause, though. Contrary to popular opinion, I believe that work ethic, level of dedication, drive and regulatory climate wrt. employee protections, consumer protections etc. has something to do with it.

But this is just a small part of the question. We also don't have solid access to investors and capital, a business/startup-friendly tax & regulatory climate, a home market of 300 million customers, a culturally compatible potential employee pool of 300 million, many of the world's greatest universities, thousands of successful entrepeneurs who participate in the business climate, entrepeneurial success as a prominent cultural trait, excelling in your chosen profession as something to be lauded, bureaucratic & legal support for companies that are about to become successful, a relatively judgement-free climate with regards to high compensation for successful professionals etc etc etc.

It's hard to say if the value of not having business/professional success, or even long hours as a primary cultural value is key when compared to these other elements.

I'm pretty confident that e.g. "The Law of Jante" easily trumps the lack of a 50-hour workweek as an impediment to success, but there are probably also downsides to not even having the latter as an option if it feels necessary.

I agree with what you said. All these things compound and have multiplied effects. It's hard to blame a single factor like working hours when the underlying reasons for even that are cultural, political, geographical, historical etc.

The Scandinavian countries are all in essence "nanny states", great to live in if you are not too ambitious or entrepreneurial. Also because of low-population density and abundant natural resources, their experiments with regard to social-welfare have worked. Unfortunately, that model cannot be replicated in the rest of the world, let alone highly populous countries.

Abundant natural resources? Finland only has timber, hardly the stuff of billionaire dreams :-)

> great to live in if you are not too ambitious or entrepreneurial.

While it clearly hasn't worked out this way (yet) having that social safety net actually should encourage entrepreneurial activity since you have a lot more freedom to fail. Once you succeed you sell out though, because it's easier to grow/expand in other locations.

The observed result is people are not encouraged to do anything out of the ordinary because the current life is good enough and the reward for success is just big taxes, so the system is encouraging the status quo.

The labor laws make it hard to hire and fire. So yeah you can start something, but can't do much if the employee does not work out.

Sweden has a lot of entrepreneurs for being a pretty small country and has historically been pretty friendly to companies.

> ...The reason the US excels in business is, I would say, being more willing to sell out their people...

Yes, THIS exactly!

Reply on news.ycombinator.com