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Comment by abstractbarista | Hacker News Reader

This is definitely a point which needs more exploring. Seems to me most damage from smoking is all the crap in smoking. The chemical nicotine - by itself - transiently raises BP, feels nice, and that's about it.

It's also only a part of the addictiveness of smoking. Probably a small part, as everyone I know who has consumed nicotine in any form has no trouble without it if they vape, but often shows discomfort/restlessness if they smoke. Amazingly, this holds true for those who consume far more nicotine through vaping compared to others that get it through smoking.

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I've been a long-time smoker, and at least for me, nicotine alone does absolutely nothing to alleviate cravings. Gum, patches, lozenges, vaping, etc. do zero to alleviate my craving for a cigarette. I'm not discounting that nicotine is addictive (I'm in no position to say), but there's got to be something else in tobacco that is part of the addiction.

Nicotine only makes me sick. I've tried gums, vapes, and nicotine salt pouches. I smoke a tobacco pipe when I want to relax.

There are MAOIs in tobacco smoke. I'm not sure that's what makes me feel calm though.

It could be the interaction between the MAOIs and the nicotine. Or more accurately, the MAOIs altering how your body handles nicotine.

There are sibling comments discussing MAOIs, and I've heard about them before in relation to smoking. It makes me wonder if MAOIs alone would be better for smoking cessation. I don't think I'm all that addicted to the nicotine itself. There are plenty of other supposedly-addictive stimulants that I can take or leave at will and with no feelings of withdrawal, and nicotine does nothing to alleviate cigarette withdrawal for me, so I'm not sure it's even a necessary component. There are some NIH studies about MAOIs and smoking, but I'm not going to link them because I find them incomprehensibly dense.

I don’t remember what family of antidepressant Bupropion (Wellbutrin/Zyban) is, but it helped me immensely the first time I quit. I literally just woke up one day (a few days before my target quit date) and had no craving at all.

It also made me a little bit manic, and weaning off it sucked, but it worked well in general.

Addiction has two components: chemical(i.e. nicotine) and psychological (i.e. the habit of the ritual).

My mom recently switched to e-cigarettes, and she said that she still occasionally gets the urge to smoke a real cigarette. But she said the urge is a lot weaker than when she used to go prolonged periods without smoking cigarettes, such as after a long plane ride.

Have you ever tried Swedish Snus? It's supposedly healthier than smoking, and no need to spit like chewing tobacco.

If you try it. make sure you get fresh stuff before you pass judgment, because it ferments inside the package if left out for too long.

That’s how you get mouth cancer.

It's still considered the safest form of tobacco out there, and the increased risk of mouth cancer is quite small to non existent.

https://www.nytimes.com/2014/11/30/business/studying-snus-a-...

Have you tried vaping using those e-cigs that look realistic, have a light up tip, and deliver a reasonable throat hit?

For me the addiction was partly psychological around the form factor. Using "light sabre" style vapes didn't work. However I was able to wean myself off smokes using realistic e-cigs (which I also eventually quit).

They do nothing for me. They're also cheaply made and don't work well or consistently (and I've tried many brands).

The only thing that got me to quit smoking is the Juul. I tried everything else, but with the Juul, I just quit without having to consciously discipline myself 20 times a day. The gum was close though, but it took too long to kill the craving, so I'd end up chewing it constantly for it to work.

I've been smoking for a little over 20 years (since a teenager). Good luck.

I think I remember reading some research at some point that backs this up, if I remember correctly they found it was a lot easier to get rats addicted to smoking than nicotine

Yep evilterran linked to the study I was thinking about.

> The chemical nicotine - by itself - transiently raises BP, feels nice, and that's about it.

This is not entirely true. I believe it can put you at risk for cardiac arrhythmia, and the risk goes up steeply the more nicotine you intake to simply cardiac arrest. I believe this is depicted in Thank You For Smoking when the protagonist is covered in nicotine patches and almost dies. It’s entirely possible that was do to BP issues but I wouldn’t dismiss it as trivial in that case.

Also if you read about the native american experience of smoking uncured tobacco, it seems like it was likely a near death shamanic experience and it did kill people occasionally.

That said, it’s rather easy to moderate your intake with the percentages, so it’s not a problem for most people (I hope).

Nicotine is a poison and will unquestionably kill you at high doses. Same thing with water. Drink enough and you'll die. The relevant question is, what are the negative effects of nicotine at common therapeutic doses?

Is there any research on what other chemicals might be addictive?

There's research that the heat alone in some forms of abuse of smoking things can cause lung issues.

The difference I've found with vaping is both a) I use a very cool setting so it's not nearly as hot as a cigarette (which you can't control the temperature of) and b) I used far less nicotine, starting from 24mg->3mg in the course of a year.

I can easily stop vaping for days at a time now without having a strong pang of nicotine dependency which I used to have.

Here's one: https://www.jneurosci.org/content/25/38/8593

Abstract:

Nicotine is the major neuroactive compound of tobacco, which has, by itself, weak reinforcing properties. It is known that levels of the enzymes monoamine oxidase A (MAO-A) and MAO-B are reduced in the platelets and brains of smokers and that substances, other than nicotine, present in tobacco smoke have MAO-inhibitory activities. Here, we report that inhibition of MAO dramatically and specifically increases the motivation to self-administer nicotine in rats. These effects were more prominent in rats selected for high responsiveness to novelty than in rats with low responsiveness to novelty. The results suggest that the inhibition of MAO activity by compounds present in tobacco smoke may combine with nicotine to produce the intense reinforcing properties of cigarette smoking that lead to addiction.

There is evidence that some additives enhance addiction and that others suppress the side effects from smoking (coughing, burnt throat, feeling ill, etc.) so that when someone quits smoking they have essentially stopped treating themselves for all these side effects, which then appear and make the person feel miserable. Smoking instantly relieves symptoms again (for a while):

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2040350/

"Our findings indicated that more than 100 of 599 documented cigarette additives have pharmacological actions that camouflage the odor of environmental tobacco smoke emitted from cigarettes, enhance or maintain nicotine delivery, could increase the addictiveness of cigarettes, and mask symptoms and illnesses associated with smoking behaviors."

So it appears that although nicotine is mildly addictive, commercial tobacco was engineered to suppress the side effects of smoking which essentially made it much more (technically) addictive. Hence quitting tobacco is much more difficult than quitting nicotine because you are also quitting the additives which are suppressing cough and hiding the feeling of illness smoking causes.

>So it appears that although nicotine is mildly addictive

It's not mildly addictive

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Substance_dependence#Dependenc...

Nicotine is not on that list.

There's a great PDF (British action group I believe? I read it ages ago) which goes in to depth on the various mechanisms the tobacco companies employed in order to increase the addiction potential of cigarettes.

A modern cigarette is not just a roll of tobacco. It's pretty much been 'bred', A-B tested, into being a drug delivery system.

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