Silicon Valley Looks North as Tech Giants Expand in Toronto
wsj.com
wsj.com
Wow, they really didn't do any research on this.
Amazon's first Toronto office opened almost 8 years ago. I moved to the office 7 years ago, when it was 25 people Growth has been constant or accelerating since then. We now have over 1000 full time employees- mostly devs, but also some AWS and Ads sales folks now too. Every department seems to have at least a couple teams here. There's two buildings, both running out of space.
And it's not like it's all "couldn't get a US visa, send them to Canada" either. Most of those folks, after a year with Amazon, could probably qualify for an L-1 and transfer to Seattle- but they don't. And a lot of the people being hired are local talent.
Like most of my coworkers, I could definitely get an increase in total comp if I moved to a US office. My wife and I don't want to live in America though- the culture isn't one we like, the politics are terrifying, the gun obsession and violence... Toronto's not perfect, but it's where we want to stay.
Life in the US isn't like that for most people who live here. It's fine you don't want to live here, that's okay. But the idea that the majority or even many Americans are gun toting nutjobs is false. If you live in a major US city your life is almost exactly the same as any major Canadian city. Vancouver might as well be a larger Seattle. Having lived in both countries, your day to day differences are fairly minor.
There are outliers of course, Texas and Florida are very unique places. The South is generally higher crime. But living in Chicago, Seattle or NYC isn't that different from Toronto or Vancouver.
Toronto's murder rate is 3.11 per 100,000 people, which is higher than NYC and Seattle: https://www.ctvnews.ca/canada/stats-show-sharp-uptick-in-tor... Many Canadian cities are on par with their US cousins.
The major difference is actually healthcare.
I wonder how many have actually been?
edit: this is not to take away from the serious challenges that the US has when it comes to many issues. I am by no means excusing our income inequality or absurd healthcare system. Just trying to convey a perspective from someone who lives there. There's a lot we need to improve but this isn't the wild west either.
Seattle is bigger, actually.
For many years, policy in Canada seems to have been to attract foreign companies to set up offices and factories here. The bold dream seems to be of being the foreign high-skill labour capital of the world. Instead of finding ways to promote local entrepreneurship, the government worries whether Canadian law will scare big tech from creating jobs for us.
At least we have Shopify. Apparently PlentyOfFish, Ashley Madison, and PornHub too :facepalm:
It takes decades to build Silicon Valley, and Canada's focus on foreign talent, business friendly regulation, and general North American enterprising culture might get it there over time.
Edit: you can find eu jobs on cwjobs.co.uk and stepstone.de to get an idea of how large the gap between canada and the eu is.
Could you give examples? I'm curious.
> any promising upstarts are getting preemptively destroyed by EU and local governments.
What kind of silliness is this comment?
If you're legitimately doing bonafide R&D -- like a team doing serious AI work, etc -- it's glorious, but it is a false hope for a lot of copy/paste type shops.
The only positive I see is the potential of working on something I like more from a subject matter point of view.
Here is why.
In the uk immigrants from non eu countries, and thus on restrictive work visas (somewhat similar to h1b) usually earned way less than locals or eu citizens because they had no option but to take any offer only to be allowed to stay in the country. Example: ai engineers from south korea would earn 35k gbp a year, while their uk or eu counterparts could earn well above 70k gbp.
Restrictive visas and abusive employers are a wage depressing mix, unfair to both locals and new comers. My guess would be that if your employer underpays your former h1b colleagues then that is not an employer you want to work for because indeed your pay will stay low.
Eu citizens however were free to work without restriction and as such compete on equal terms as locals. Much like in Canada where immigrants under express entry are able to change jobs as they wish, eu citizens could change jobs as they wish. The result was that instead of outsourcing to india or other countries, uk companies suddenly started growing at home as they had plenty of resources. Thus job opportunities and pay went up both for locals and eu immigrants. As a hiring manager, demand was so high that either eu immigrants or locals had to be payed more and more each year.
Similarly, in Canada, the more resources companies will find, the less they will outsource and the more pay will go up over time.
As brexit is biting in and less devs are on the market, some of those companies are now either outsourcing or opening new branches in other eu countries to hire the same people as they would have in the uk, simply because there are not enough devs left. This means less opportunities for locals.
Another thing is that more devs, means more ideas floating around, and that means more skills you can get.
It can be frightening and if there are many abusive employers and restrictive visas wages can go down, but something tells me they will go up as indeed canada is a country with a north american business mindset. And if you mix tech and capital the result will be job and pay growth which i have seen in london/europe. You should embrace this if you want your pay to double in the next 5 years. Mine did in london as when i moved there the “revolution” was only starting and it was an awesome ride.
Maybe I'm just fed up with the US's bullshit to ever want to deal with them, but I know lots of people who feel the same. If you are a fresh grad, it's almost impossible to not go however, which sucks for us here, but that's just how it is. Not all decisions are based on big piles of money. I also live in Waterloo and have an awesome house, but if you are stuck in GTA or Vancouver, then good luck I guess no matter what you do if you want real housing. Prices here have also gone up a lot, but still affordable with a dev job.
There are idiots everywhere, I just prefer to be surrounded by idiots without guns than idiots with.
Because this is my home. It's where my family and friends are. I have a sometimes misled sense of pride, etc. The same sorts of reasons most Americans wouldn't want to move to Canada for a job. I mean, I'd be more likely to move to Japan or France or something for a job because it's different enough to make it novel.
But let's be real -- there are great areas all over the US. They have far more weather and geographical diversity. There are great cities like Portland, Austin, etc. It isn't all crime[1] or violence. And we're probably exposed to US politics more here than the average American (given Canada's inferiority complex and our profound focus on the US). And I've never had a problem with Canadian healthcare, but if you're taking a job in the US you'll probably be on a great plan that gets you great service there as well.
[1] - Especially given that property crime tends to be much worse in most areas of Canada, and gun crime in the major cities is as bad as many American cities.
Is it, though? I can't remember the last time I heard of a gun crime in Vancouver, but that's anecdotal, of course.
These companies vetted these employees for free, seems like a pure arbitrage opportunity to me.
I work for a tech company in Toronto and no single engineer in the company would make less than that (maybe some recent grads). I also know from my network that Uber, Amazon, Google, etc have been raising the average salary in Toronto.
It's $71,000 lower than engineering salaries in SF according to the article