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Comment by jedberg | Hacker News Reader

The Mercedes is known for being more expensive than most, but in most cases, it's worth it, not only for the luxury, but for the extreme attention to detail they put into safety.

For example, when you get into one, it will adjust the tension of the seatbelt automatically to be ideal for each passenger. And of course this pink noise. And a ton of other little things that cost extra that most people will never notice.

There's a reason the Mercedes is always at or near the top of any vehicle safety list.

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I was recently in the market and was impressed by the amount of safety features available in modern models (my old car being a 2011 model). In the luxury range everything had automatic braking for rear-end collision, back-up collision prevention, 360 camera, lane-keeping assist, etc.. (albeit often as part of a pricier package). I'm sure many other brands have similar features too.

A couple days after I got the new car, a kid ran out behind my car as I was backing out of a parking spot. It beeped and stopped me from backing up anymore. I think I would've reacted in time too, but it was quite reassuring to have the computer help out.

For me the most useful feature is the 360 camera, which is admittedly more convenience than safety. It starts beeping loudly before you bump into things, and shows you a top-down view of your surroundings on the screen. Super super super useful for squeezing into tight parking spots. Just this morning I had to get into a really tight spot, and I probably would've been pretty nervous without the camera haha.

It is a little scary though that the system has so much control over the car now. Makes you wonder what'll happen if it glitches while you're on the highway.

As an aside, I still haven't gotten used to the seatbelt pull which startles me every time, it's a pretty firm tug. The 2019 BMW models have that too.

Backup cameras have been federally mandated since, IIRC, 2017 in all new vehicles.

It's not just a backup camera, it's a stitched video from four cameras to create a "birds-eye view" of the "car" and its surroundings from overhead.

Demo: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xqbpqDZRd70

All these active safety systems contain a lot of self tests and sanity checks to make sure that they cannot interfere with normal driving. Such a system interfering instead of disabling itself is at most as likely as winning the lottery. You are much more likely to be saved from the consequences of a serious mistake. So while while your worry is natural because you give control to a machine that gkves you no insight into its operational state, it is also unjustified.

These features are also coming down in the prices ranges now as well. I recently bought our first car, a 2017 Suzuki that cost us $8,000 used (closer to $14,000 new maybe?)

It has the birds-eye view 360 degree parking camera (and curb view), forward collision auto emergency braking, lane departure warning and it'll beep at you when the car in front starts moving after a red light and you're too engrossed in your phone to notice.

Funny I was in a rollover in a Honda Fit and did not experience any injury or even pain. Some pyrotechnic device fired to tension the seatbelt but I only knew because I could smell it.

I found myself hanging upside quite securely with my brain processing the strange sensation in being a place that was both highly familiar (my car) but entirely strange (being upside down.) I looked and saw that the back window had broken so I'd have an easy way to get out; I had time to plan my moves, then released the seatbelt and went out the back.

All modern cars meet very high standards for safety and these are improving all the time.

Modern cars are very safe. But luxury cars had pre-tensioners in the 80’s already.

What do they have now that the rest of us will get in 2050?

Starting in 2019, you get backup cameras...

Luxury brands can actually stop you from going into a lane when a vehicle is there or minimizing the damage if you push it. Kinda like Tesla Autopilot but only when you're about to do something stupid.

We just got a new car; a Hyundai i30, kinda the opposite end of the market from the luxury brands. We had to pay a little extra for the safety pack (~$2k), but we have

- backup camera

- radar-guided "smart" cruise control (this is amazing!)

- lane-departure warning and active steering

- emergency braking

Our particular model doesn't have the blind-spot detection (as per parent post) or rear cross-traffic warning, even though the version just below it does (different factories, weird), but we preferred the better interior.

The lane keepong assistant was part of the base package when I bought mine. Hyundai added a lot of safety features to the base package or comparatively cheap extra packs to differentiate the car.

Unfortunately I couldn't get the advanced cruise control because I ordered mine with manual transmission. And the emergency braking feature acts weird on my car. It emits a warning signal if it detects a car in front lomg before it brakes but I find that to be pretty hit or miss.

In my experience thus far that feature is rife with false positives, so it ends up being more of an annoyance than anything. Or even potentially dangerous in itself, as it can be disconcerting when the steering wheel shifts unexpectedly—it can feel like a loss of traction, which could cause the driver to react in a detrimental fashion.

Unfortunately they don't devote any attention to longevity or serviceability. But yes the safety features are excellent.

Please provide some non-anecdotal evidence to this claim?

https://repairpal.com/reliability/mercedes-benz

I'm not sure how reliable this site is but in general, it is accepted that most luxury German cars have reoccurring issues. The reason why I say "accepted" is because in most cases, they are pushing cutting edge technology and with so many parts, something is going to give.

I do not know common Mercedes issues but with BMW SUVs the most common issues are plastic parts near gaskets (leaks), electrical systems, and ventilation (especially in X3).

Of coarse there are exceptions and not all cars are created equal but this seems to be the consensus year after year.

Look at the bottom of the doors of almost any Mercedes B-Class produced before 2009 and you will see brown corrosion traces. My B-Class (bought new in 2005) was literally falling apart from corrosion. They had massive quality problems in the early 2000s, with the B- and C-Class. I know this is my personal experience, but I will never be able to purchase any Mercedes car ever again.

That's bad luck! But... if you'll never buy from a manufacturer because one of their models had a corrosion issue or drivetrain issue you'd never be able to buy a car ever again?

It's one thing to have "a corrosion or drive-train issue" that affects a model or series of models built with that design. It's another to repeatedly have the same issue, repeatedly say it's fixed and then have it turn out to be not fixed. Toyota light truck frames, Nissan CVTs and arguably Honda A/C systems are the quintessential examples of this (though in Honda and Nissan's defense, they never claimed to have ever done anything about it).

I'm not gonna comment on the Mercedes because while they definitely have earned their reputation for being expensive in old age I'm not familiar enough with them to pass a value judgement.

Well, I guess if you can't actually drive the car, you will be safest of all.. :-)

Mercedes is actually known for their engine longevity, reliability and serviceability.

Yes they have more issues with technology than other cars, but that's because they use more and newer technology than cheaper brands. [1]

[1] https://www.osv.ltd.uk/are-mercedes-benz-reliable/

I would find this more compelling if i hadn't had a Mercedes written off because of their "smart" technology choices.

Apparently with their vehicles (in this case a C180/2004) the tensioner is power-dependent and requires the vehicle to be used somewhat frequently to work at all. This means that simply by not using the car for 4-5 months, my dad returning to it and turning it on for < 3 seconds resulted in the motor starting with the tensioner not working, resulting in timing chain failure which irreparably damaged the valves and motor to the extent the vehicle was written off.

I don't have much automotive expertise by any means, but my understanding is that tensioner design in other makes of car generally do not experience critical failure when presented with "being used seldomly".

it's disappointing that the tensioner of all things would fail in that situation, but long intervals between use is a problem for all cars.

if your dad regularly lets a car sit for five months without driving it, he's going to have a lot of car troubles. ought to at least take it out a couple times a month, just for 20-30 minutes (ie, long enough to get fully warmed up).

Well tell that to whoever built the engine in my wife’s GL450. Cylinder head replacement after 40,000 miles, which involved dropping the engine.

I went to visit the shop while they were working on it. Wow, I do a bit of car work, but if I ever had my car in so many pieces I would never have gotten in back together again.

Thank god for extended warranties. I’ve never made out on a warranty so well, but one thing is for sure, I will never own that car out of warranty.

Well, you own an exceptionally complex car which still retains the form factor of a limousine. All the hardware for these features has to go somewhere and that usually means the space around the engine. There is not a lot the engineers can do to improve things. They are struggling to find usable space.

I suppose Toyota / Lexus is black magic, then?

why would you compare Toyota to Mercedes? they have almost nothing in common. I don't think Lexus is a good comparison either but that's more a matter of opinion.

They were, before their cars were filled with gadgetry. Can you find a 5+ year old Merc without something broken? The first buyer or lessee has moved on to something newer by then so nothing has to be designed to last long.

Interesting. Not having looked at any data, I’m now wondering why most taxis in Germany are, and have been for a long time, mostly Mercedes? (Commonly their E class.) Are they just cheaper to buy for that purpose or what’s the reason?

Taxis get maintained religiously, and taxi companies have no problem replacing worn parts or even entire engines.

There is a big difference in build quality and longevity between modern Mercedes cars and the ones built in the 1970s and 1980s. They used to feel substantially better than other cars. Now they don't really, except for the S class.

That’s a good point. A lot of taxis in Germany are owned by individuals (so while it’s still a business, it’s often a one-person business), but I know they have workshops specifically for taxis, that are probably somewhat specialized on Mercedes. And maintenance packages that factor into the price, which Mercedes likely has if only because of their long tradition as a taxi brand, would play a role as well. Otherwise, I would still expect taxi concession owners to go with the most reliable brand, because any maintenance cost still has to be subtracted from your profit.

Note that Germany has some pretty strict requirements on what a car needs to have in order to be used as a taxi. Going non-standard in your choices there is probably not worth it financially in the end.

My 2010 MB C-class feels very much like my previous car, a 1988 MB 420 SEL which I bought new in 1988 and traded in in 2013 for the C-class.

Could some of that be attributable to the other brands getting better?

I've heard that German luxury cars (what we consider them here in the USA) are more like what we think of Fords here; so common and normal, considered affordable. Or maybe just not "high end" due to being common? Again, though, only heard that - nothing to back it up.

It also may be that because Mercedes and BMWs are "local brand" vehicles, there are more of them, and more mechanics out there able to service them? Whereas (to them) foreign cars like American vehicles you have to take to special American automobile repair places (like we have European auto repair places here that specialize in those makes/models)?

Again - guesses...

While it’s true that BMWs and Mercedes are extremely common (and by feeling also less of a “luxury brand”), at least in Munich, I’ve rarely seen a BMW taxi. They’re not all Mercedes, but I’d say that the majority easily is. So there has to be reasons for that, but the potential existence of special maintenance packages for taxis could easily be one of them.

My observation of Germans is that they have a strong sense of nationalism towards their own car brands, so I'm not surprised taxi drivers use a local brand rather than Prius like the rest of Europe.

As others have said older Mercedes had very good reliability, so that probably still rubs off on how people feel about cars today. I'd consider BMW more sporty than luxury.

BMW is local to Munich though. So they'd lean more towards BMW than Mercedes. I'm thinking it might be Mercedes having more leg room or being more comfortable on the back than BMW, which have always been marketed as driver centric.

Market differentiation.

For instance, the base A-CLass (small/mid size sedan) sold in Germany has a 110hp engine and cloth seats, and very few standard features. Base price (w/o VAT) is ~$24,000US.

The base US A-Class has a 190HP engine, leather, more standard features, and starts at $32,500.

Why does the US version need to have a more powerful engine?

Different buyer preferences. Different needs.

Of course, it helps that most low-powered cars sold in the EU will have manual trans, where all US MBs are autos...

Also, US buyers will run the AC a lot more, and AC eats a lot of power...potentially as much as 15-20HP... that's a lot more noticeable with a tiny engine.

Still I doubt if it is actually justified, considering in India a similar size car is perfectly serving its purpose with a 60 to 70 HP engine.

The same reason Apple Doesn't sell an iPhone Zero in the US with a single core processor and 64MB of RAM.

The US is a mature product.

High end brands don't sell sub-lowend products.

But then it means that Americans are overpaying by buying capacity they don't really need. This is something I'm always wondered at, as in the 3rd world even well-off people try to minimize their expenses.

But we do need it. Look at traffic on our highways. You need power to safely merge in many places.

Tell that to the people who won't buy that car.

The US consumer looking for a $24k 110hp car with cloth seats is not walking onto a Mercedes lot. Mercedes and BMW have always been luxury here, and for a long time there was a price premium simply for the exchange rate and tariffs. It would take a lot of advertising to make Mercedes a middle market brand and it would hurt their luxury image. Considering the number of not wealthy people I see financing or leasing “aspirational” cars like E-class Mercedes or BMW X-series, this isn’t really hurting the breadth of their market.

That's been true for taxis in the US for a long time --- which are usually full-size Chevrolets and Fords. They're also much roomier and thus give a more comfortable ride than the average import econobox, with extra capacity for luggage.

The Chevy Caprice and Ford Crown Victoria have been out of production for years so regardless of their advantages they won't be used as taxis much longer.

Mercedes sells non-luxury cars in Europe. They sell cars with cloth seats and manual transmissions. It’s just that in some markets such as the United States they have only sold luxury cars.

There have been going down market in the U.S with the C class, then the CLA and now the A class, but these are still low-end luxury cars.

While they certainly have some nifty safety features, I don't feel as though they really take safety seriously when they have one of the worst completion rates for the Takata airbag recall (source: https://www.nhtsa.gov/equipment/takata-recall-spotlight#comp...).

According to IIHS's data, riders in Mercedes C-class cars have about-average chances of injury. This means they're no safer than a Prius. Mercedes E-class cars have about 30% less than average chances of injury, about the same as Volvo and Subaru.

https://www.iihs.org/ratings/insurance-losses-by-make-and-mo...

Some of their moose/elk test results have been pretty poor over the years though. These are two that spring to mind:

https://youtu.be/E8DT5q2ZD88?t=77

https://youtu.be/06y2ZRPglsI?t=59

> The Mercedes is known for being more expensive than most, but in most cases, it's worth it, not only for the luxury, but for the extreme attention to detail they put into safety.

Citation needed. The little seatbelt tightening thing is cute but probably doesn't increase safety at all, and some cars in the 90s had a feature that would put the whole seatbelt on for you.

My Benz warns me from upcoming frontal crashes, applies extra pressure on the brakes in these circumstances and even automatically brakes as a last resort to reduce the impact when the crash is inevitable. This is actually a default feature on all new Mercedes.

The pre-safe sound linked here is another example.

Forward collision warning and related features are now standard on the Honda Civic, for reference. Not a luxury feature any more.

> "cute but probably doesn't increase safety at all"

Pre-Safe occupant protection including pretensioning reduced stress to the head and neck by 30-40%: https://media.daimler.com/marsMediaSite/en/instance/ko/The-P...

The comment is about safety, not just luxury, and Mercedes has been on the cutting edge for over a century. You can read about their list of innovations including being the first to have crumple zones, airbags, anti-lock brakes, traction control, and more: https://www.mbusa.com/mercedes/benz/safety

> "and some cars in the 90s had a feature that would put the whole seatbelt on for you"

Are you referring to the belts attached to the A-pillar that would slide up when you sit? Those didn't handle the lap portion and were proven terrible by safety testing and consumer response.

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