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Comment by tompccs | Hacker News Reader

One of the drivers of tourist congestion is the point-to-point nature of air-travel. In the past, travel used to be something for the elite, not only because it was expensive, but because it would take months of travel to actually reach many of the places. Your travel time would be spread over many intermediate places, all of which are now flown over by planes.

Whilst the volume of tourists is a problem, the behaviour of booking a week (or less!) off work to fly halfway across the world and back is of course going to concentrate tourists around "hot" destinations.

I predict that long, slow, possibly "eco" trips will become fashionable as a new way to signal wealth (much in the way that travel to far-flung corners of the Earth used to).

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My experience is that there's a small handful of tourism hotspots, usually only a few blocks in diameter (because people don't like to walk too far). The space between these ultra famous spots are essentially empty of tourists. If you go just barely off the Instagram path it'll be just you and the locals. If you're having a bad time on your vacations, maybe you're just going to the wrong places?

I stayed in Bletchley Park this weekend to see the both the code breaking museum and the computer history museum. It was amazing. There was hardly anyone else in the computer history museum while I visited. I was able to talk with the guys who restore the computer equipment and spent some time listening to the hams in the national radio centre talk about the hobby. The few other people seeing the museums were deeply into it, trying out the codebreaking challenges or asking for nuances on how they were able to break Enigma. I felt like I was with kindred spirits and I had a helluva time.

I don't know how well this generalizes, but I've seen this as well.

Venice even during the day when loaded with tourists is a maze of places unencumbered by tourists. I had loads of fun wandering around there, getting lost, discovering random small plazas, etc.

Is Barcelona like this at all or has the whole city been inundated with tourists?

Oh my there's so much cool stuff to see in Barcelona that no one sees. For example, we saw a cool looking church at the top of one of the mountains that serve as a backdrop for the city and started going towards it. Found ourselves on a funicular climbing above the city for the price of a transit ticket. There's an awesome village at the top with sweeping views of the city in every direction. We go higher and find hiking trails winding up to the peak of Tibidabo. We keep seeing views of that white church floating over us like something out of LOTR.

Once we get near the peak we find an... amusement park!? And then just a bit further up finally the church, which is best from a distance, but had really great 360 views of everything else. All stoke, 0 tourists.

La Rambla, Sagrada Familia and Park Guell are inundated, step a few blocks away and it's generally much quieter, plenty of small plazas etc.

Last time I went, I visited those places, but I stayed in a tiny hotel in the gothic quarter and walked from there to Park Guell instead of using the tube, stopping to get ice cream or coffee, letting my four year old play on the park and so on. Step away, slow down and enjoy it.

Returning from a canoeing trip a few years ago, there were tens of canoes paddling in the bay of the rental store. Apparently, the particular lake we were on had received a "Michelin Star", and therefore been placed on the bucket list of a number of people. I can't imagine the Michelin people, adding the site to their list, were commenting on the particular beauty of a particular bay, nor felt that canoeing was an ephemeral joy that was felt independent of where one was travelling. Nevertheless, a number of people had travelled a great distance to experience only that. Yet we were fortunate, I think, to have spent the rest of the weekend in peace, only having passed one or two other groups.

>I predict that long, slow, possibly "eco" trips will become fashionable as a new way to signal wealth (much in the way that travel to far-flung corners of the Earth used to).

the way to signal wealth now is taking ur yacht to obscure places and not telling people where these places are located to combat congestion.

So it's already happening kind of! I think what the OC was talking about would be such yachts, but solar powered, or cross continent trips in self driving electric cars.

>I predict that long, slow, possibly "eco" trips will become fashionable as a new way to signal wealth (much in the way that travel to far-flung corners of the Earth used to).

This is already kind of a thing. See gap years, find yourself trips, etc.

> This is already kind of a thing. See gap years, find yourself trips, etc.

Add digital nomadism, at least, in many of its forms.

Thru-hiking is also as popular as ever.

Wait until you see what happens when Americans get 4-6 weeks of holiday per year like the rest of the world

Absolutely nothing. They'll either not use it like now, or not be able to afford, like now.

> or not be able to afford, like now.

The top 250 million adult Americans are richer than the top 250 million adults in Europe, Asia, Latin America, or Africa. So what are you talking about?

The median American is far richer - with a far higher income and disposable income - than the median in Europe, Asia, Latin America or Africa. It's not remotely close in fact.

The median in Europe for example, pegs you down toward an income of just $12,000 and a net worth of only a few thousand dollars.

The US is a country of 330 million people where the median person is wealthier than Germany or Sweden. The US is by a considerable margin the wealthiest per capita large population in world history.

40% of american families can't even afford a $400 emergency. Most people live paycheck to paycheck, regardless of their income. Retirement funds are a HUGE problem here because 25% have ZERO saved. Zero. Not to mention the 1.5 trillion in education debt.

https://money.cnn.com/2018/05/22/pf/emergency-expenses-house...

Often (not always!) this is due to lifestyle inflation, retail therapy and poor money management. A lot more people have the means to be saving for $400 emergencies but instead buy some plastic crap that gets used once, eat out too often, get the latest iPhone every year or buy a car or house beyond their means. And I've been guilty of this as well.

Just look at garages. They are often so packed full of junk there is no room to park a car (and then end up filling driveways and the street bumper to bumper). Once you start paying attention to this you notice it a lot.

I think we're all aware of the reason this exists. People are shit at budgeting. That just reinforces my argument that nothing will change with more time off.

In the US four in ten people can’t come up with $400. People are paid a lot more than in other countries, but retain hardly any wealth. A large percent of Americans are paycheck to paycheck, meaning once housing/food/healhcare/other essential unmovable costs are paid for, there is no money left to save for anything. America might have the greatest level wealth inequality in the world.

> In the US four in ten people can’t come up with $400.

I'm pretty sure this is due to some really poor surveys, not the actual state of things. There's a number of debunkings, too. [0]

> America might have the greatest level wealth inequality in the world.

According to Wikipedia, the gini wealth coefficient list (as of 2000) goes Namibia, Zimbabwe, Denmark, the world as a whole, Switzerland, and then the US. [1] Most people would not consider Denmark to be a particularly unequal country. For more recent numbers it seems that Russia, India, Thailand, Indonesia, Brazil and China all have a higher proportion of wealth in the hands of the 1% than the US does. [2] That's as of 2016, and I don't think the US was able to 'catch up' that much in the past 3 years.

0: https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/articles/2019-06-04/the-40...

1: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_distribut...

2: https://www.statista.com/chart/6908/the-worlds-most-unequal-...

That will unfortunately never happen.

Apparently 5 millions of americans already work as digital nomads

That number seems 20X higher than what I would have expected. Either the bar to be a nomad is meaninglessly low (e.g., works occasionally from local coffee shop) or I've grown out of touch.

I 'm also surprised by the number, but i ve found it in multiple sources. and digital nomadism is indeed a hot trend

https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2019/may/11/digital-n...

https://trends.google.com/trends/explore?date=today%205-y&q=...

Recent college grads couch surfing and trying to make a career of blogging/youtubing? Are we counting the beach/ski bum sort? Migrant farm workers?

About 3% of the US workforce seems way high not to be including a bunch of stuff one wouldn't expect.

They're not using the 2 weeks allocated to them as it is.

That should be mandated. Harder to hide embezzlement/fraud.

It typically is in the finance sectors, but not many other places.

It’s good for business continuity too. You don’t want to overly depend on any particular person, as they could quit/hit by bus/leave at any time.

hmm. it seems cruise / boat travel is even worse than planes. That only leaves trains, in combination with car and ... horses? There is already a campaign against air travel e.g. for conferences, and it will probably become a trend in the next few years. I wonder what is going to fill in the gap that air travel left for aspiring tourists.

There is also the possibility that electric planes will become a thing

There is also the possibility that people will spend half a year working in an exotic place to avoid travelling too much

> boat travel is even worse than planes.

Not all of them, can't do much more eco friendly than sailboats. Besides walking or cycling, but that won't take you across oceans/seas.

> won't take you across oceans/seas

yeah bummer. what about balloons?

lm28469 is saying that sailboats do take you across seas/oceans. There are a few cruising sailboats; though they currently use wind only for extra power, I could see them selling "eco" trips where engines are only used for emergencies.

Yeah I updated my post to make it clearer. Even a small sailboat can take you across oceans.

I think you are creating a trend here. Watch out however because there will be casualties among the 'grammers.

I sadly don't have 80 vacation days.

Interesting, this actually points increasing vacation days as a small part of a reasonable climate policy. If we need to switch to slower transportation methods, it's only fair that we should get more vacation days. If you have an extra couple of days, even in the US a plane trip can become a rail trip.

That'll be a hard sell - I imagine as we move to more climate friendly policies our ability to produce is going to go down - it'll be hard to convince employers that giving more vacation days and becoming even less efficient with the employees is a good choice.

Of course, we've been becoming increasingly more efficient and we're not getting more time off, so you're damned if you do, you're damned if you don't.

Between the growing labor movement, and more willingness to regulate companies, I'm not sure we need to convince them.

Are either of these actually happening? I see a movement towards a gig economy and side hustles. I don't know if there's actually a move towards workers standing up for their rights.

Same goes with regulation - there are definite corners of society who would like that, but those who are in power, who are in power because of the people, clearly don't.

Just to be clear, I want these things, I just don't see society turning that way.

I think we're seeing the beginnings of them, but they definitely have a headwind. It's definitely too early to say they're happening, but there's a possibility for the first time in my lifetime, IMO.

As far as unionization, there seems to be a trend of newsrooms organizing, I've seen a burger place trying to unionize where I live, and more and more people are talking about unionizing in the games space. With tech workers, we're not there yet, but efforts like the anti-ICE stuff could be a first step down that path.

As far as regulation, all the senators running for president support the Green New Deal, and so do a handful of congress members. And locally, several cities have passed laws providing paid sick leave, including in Texas.

These are frankly all pretty small, but taken together, I think they show that things could change.

Don’t forget bicycles! Long distance bike touring is a really fascinating way to experience a place, if you have the time to do it. My rule of thumb is that one hour of driving takes about a day of bicycle touring - so you can get remarkably far in a week or two.

A guilty pleasure of mine is reading cycle touring travelogues. I'm really looking forward to trying it.

Ha, that’s how I started! If you’re interested in dipping a toe in, I recommend doing a weekend trip - bike out, camp, and back. It’s a wonderful feeling to escape wherever you are under your own power.

i love cycling but never did a tour like that. That is already a thing though but i doubt it will catch on because of environment concerns. It's not for everyone

Right. Whilst it's not difficult to cycle 100 or even 200 miles in a single day, it's far more pleasurable to keep tour cycling to 40-60 miles, particularly on an extended trip and whilst carrying luggage.

I've done some long, slow, "eco" trips (on shoestring budgets and air mile points). It's not popular with rich people yet. Mostly it's retirees out birding. Rich people are much more likely to be clubbing internationally or handing out on yachts.

How do you use air mile points for those trips?

>”I predict that long, slow, possibly "eco" trips will become fashionable as a new way to signal wealth”

Perhaps but that’s a minority of the tourist pop., so the problem will remain and only slightly diminished.

Oh yes, this problem isn't going away anytime soon. But fashions and tastes may gradually change. Remember that package holidays, cruises, leisure resorts and high-rise beachfront hotels all were fashionable at some point, but are now seen as tacky.

> I predict that long, slow, possibly "eco" trips will become fashionable as a new way to signal wealth (much in the way that travel to far-flung corners of the Earth used to).

This is very much still a thing. Personal hunting trips in Africa, sailing through the artic, flying your private plane to islands regular jets can't reach, cruising your yacht across the Atlantic.

The best way is to buy your own island. That way nobody else can go there, the ultimate exclusive travel destination

I've been thinking for a while now that ‘long, slow, possibly "eco" trips’ would be perfect for airships doing slow routes around continents, landing occasionally for supplies and for tourists to stretch their legs.

> I predict that long, slow, possibly "eco" trips

Anecdata but I can see this already happening in my circle of Friends in a big German city. Friends telling of weekend trips by plane are increasingly met by snarkiness, and I personally dream of doing the Interrail trip I never did in my teens!

That might work in Europe, where there are more options than planes. In Canada, and obviously the US, there's no option.

Also, good luck getting a round-trip flight in Canada for less than $300 (unless it’s driving distance), let alone 19 EUR.

> I predict that long, slow, possibly "eco" trips will become fashionable as a new way to signal wealth

I try to sell to my spouse, family and friends that this is what we’re doing when I buy the 29” pitch seat flight tickets, but they’re not buying it.

maybe also a greener way to travel

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