Jeffrey Epstein: Financier 'found dead in cell' in New York
bbc.com
bbc.com
This will only inflame conspiracy theory minded people to believe there is a vast conspiracy by the powerful to protect themselves.
This is depressing. I’m yet hopeful evidence will be used to bring guilty parties to justice. This wasn’t just mr Epstein.
How is that a conspiracy?
“a secret plan by a group to do something unlawful or harmful.”
Edit: And the story has been removed from the HN front page, despite being one of the most popular...
> A conspiracy theory is an explanation of an event or situation that invokes a conspiracy by sinister and powerful actors, often political in motivation, when other explanations are more probable.
But who gets to define what is more probable? Why not just "when there is no proof (yet)"? But I guess that battle and term are lost.
If it exists, it makes sense they would protect themselves.
edit: This is why Bernie Madoff went to prison and why basically no one went to jail over the 2008 GFC. Madoff stole from his own social class, which is a big no-no.
I don’t think that analysis tells the whole story. Elizabeth Holmes got away with a slapped wrist despite defrauding some very, very powerful people.
Whereas Shkreli got jail despite returning every penny to his investors.
Holmes hasn't gotten away with anything yet. She's been indicted on federal charges, and the trial is expected to begin in 2020. She could end up in prison.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elizabeth_Holmes#Criminal_char...
For example, if you invest money in a profitable business and the CEO skims a little bit off the top, you might end up making money despite that you were defrauded off some of your gains.
Despite the fact that white collar crime does more economic damage and even kills more people every year than street crime, it is punished very rarely and then typically only lightly. That's a social issue, and the majority of society are complicit in it, fighting for tougher laws to control the middle and lower class while fighting against substantial penalties for crime committed by the upper class. The Protestant Work Ethic says that hard work, endurance of suffering, and virtuous character is the only way to wealth, so the public presumes that is how the wealthy got wealthy. It is almost never true, however.
There’s so much to work with here that it’s going to go on for years.
"Background: An important note after Epstein's death: no one else will have standing to challenge the search warrant on his house. Everything will be admissible against any other defendant without possibility of a motion to suppress."
So maybe this will be a net good for justice?
That Epstein had politically powerful clients and friends is not in serious dispute (which were clients and which were merely friends unconnected to his child rape business is somewhat less clear), and explains the sweetheart plea deal without resort to some behind-Epstein mastermind.
It's not impossible, but there is nothing that is explained more easily by such a mastermind than by the Epstein being the master of his own sex trade operation which garnered him influence (simply heading that operation means he has powerful blackmail material on powerful people.)
Your understanding of the situation is incorrect, and is leading you to incorrect conclusions.
They use incompetent people who can be manipulated into believing they have common interests and competent people who believe in their own that they have common interests, but, yes, they often use incompetent people. The relevance of this observation is unclear, as it still presents no existing phenomenon that requires a shady superior to Epstein to explain.
> Your understanding of the situation is incorrect.
You have as yet provided no way in which my understanding is incorrect.
It is so incredible it is beyond my understanding.
But you claim to understand it, which is also very much beyond me.
But you are right, more so than you think, I cannot provide a way for you to understand something I don’t understand.
If there were related parallel investigations, they could either still be before a grand jury, not yet have been submitted to a grand jury, or already had indictments issued but under seal. The fact that no one else was charged in the Epstein indictment does not mean there is no one else in a related matter against whom an investigation and/or (sealed) charges exist, which, if from no other source, the public coverage of all the investigations around Trump should have made everyone familiar with recently.
It would have been admissible against anyone but Epstein even if Epstein hadn't died, and further warrants derived from information discovered through it (including reseizure of the same evidence under a new warrant) wouldn't, as I understand it, be precluded unless it was to be used against Epstein, all for the same reason that the right to object dies with Epstein, so it does nothing for justice except preventing any Constitutional violation from even being recognized, which is a net loss, not a win.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marc_Dutroux#Deaths_of_potenti...
Even the public prosecutor was suddenly overwhelmed by sadness and took his life during the investigation. Hats off to anyone who dares to touch high-profile pedophilia cases.
The story in the Deus Ex video game series is starting to seem less ridiculous and impromptu, and more like a piece of prophetic media.
I just can't imagine someone being able to order such a murder. There would be too many people involved and risks of getting caught.
He probably paid those guards a lot for the right to die.
Dunno man it really doesn't add up to a suicide.
The story hit upon a number of other discredited conspiracy tropes and archetypes. A network of child sex traffickers resembles too much 'orderly world' conspiracy theorist family. Where there is some vast conspiracy to blame for everything wrong with the world but there is at least someone behind it and some concrete goal to 'fix it'. As opposed to a chaotic real world where there is nothing that can be done about it - sometimes some nut-job decides to do something really scary like kill the president or shoot up schools.
Not to mention the anti-semetic tropes hit upon by it when there was a simpler explanation for his contact with high level people - he was rich. Being a donor would have explained it far easier than a sex trafficking conspiracy before concrete evidence.
Frankly the 'believers' of the story did more to make less believable than any amount of spin-doctors with things like drawing tenuous connections to anyone who ever met the guy being a pedophile.
I'll do you one better. Is he really even dead, or did he pull a Ken Lay?
Definition of the word:
“an evil, unlawful, treacherous, or surreptitious plan formulated in secret by two or more persons; plot.”
> Suicides between 23.00 h and 07.00 h are rare, and these overwhelmingly occur under intermittent observations. Such observation is purely a defensive intervention to document that a patient is safe at a particular time, as there is no engagement.
I work with anonymised data. If you want actual names I'm going to have to trawl through coroner's reports.
Or you could have a look at this, which says about 18 patients per year in the UK: https://documents.manchester.ac.uk/display.aspx?DocID=37570
Additionally, Epstein was under suicide watch. Which should have made suicide practically impossible without outside intervention. Given the money and power at play here, murder made to look like a suicide is a very real possibility.
People in this thread don't know what "suicide watch means". They seem to think it's 24 hour continuous monitoring.
It may mean someone looks through a door hatch once every 15 minutes.
But also, he may not have been on suicide watch: https://www.nytimes.com/2019/08/10/nyregion/jeffrey-epstein-...
Saying that there is a suicide attempt every week in Swedish "Häkte", meaning about 52 attempts per year with an average of 9000 people in "häkte" over the course of one year. And that is only in the cases where people are actually prosecuted. There are lots of mentions of suicides in "arrest" as well.
See eg Fred West.
I tried searching for reports or information about other suicides in Metropolitan Correctional Center - New York (MCC-NY) but wasn't able to find examples in the news. Admittedly, I didn't dig very deep and I'm completely unfamiliar with this domain. If you know of any sources showing examples of successful suicides in MCC-NY then I would be interested in learning about them.
Ideally we could review the prison's records for successful and unsuccessful suicides when on suicide watch and during regular imprisonment. The Bureau of Justice Statistics website [1] looks like it should have relevant data on this, but I'm too tired to sift through their reports tonight.
[0] https://twitter.com/eliehonig/status/1160224228232355841
We need to be clear how they define suicide, which may not include all self-inflicted death.
> Mr. Epstein had been on suicide watch after he was found injured on July 23 and received a daily psychiatric evaluation, according to a person familiar with his detention. He was removed from suicide watch on July 29 and returned to the special housing unit, a segregated area of the prison with extra security, this person said.
> The authorities did not immediately explain why he was taken off suicide watch. The F.B.I. said it was investigating, and Attorney General William P. Barr said in a statement that a special inquiry would be opened into what had happened.
"Financier"
Everything I have read since this came out states no one has any idea how/where Epstein made his money. And yet, the headlines read "Financier." Not convicted criminal. Suspected sex trafficker, rapist, pedophile, or anything of that nature.
Everything about Epstein and this case shows the insane power imbalance between those at the top of our society and everyone else.
As far as the suicide watch, sure he was high profile but he was in jail awaiting trial and there are probably plenty of people put on suicide watch. The jail doesn't have the resources to monitor everyone 24/7, and frankly regular checks are probably plenty to catch or prevent most attempts.
Seems pretty inexplicable to me how he could outsmart seasoned professionals explicitly tasked with preventing his suicide.
Remember - cells have video cameras, or at least - certainly suicide watch cells do, and people glance at these camera, you would think, every few minutes. Was Epstein the fastest noose-maker-and-hanger in the world?
It certainly could be a murder, but I'm not quite as convinced as other people seem... I'm sure it's very convenient for lots of his ghoulish friends, but it also makes a lot of sense that he would do anything necessary to get out of facing his crimes and the surrounding media circus.
If we're entering conspiracy theory territory, why couldn't Epstein use said resources and connections to find a lookalike/prop artist, buy people and fake his own suicide?
A conspiracy theory is just a theory that a group is conspiring without the knowledge of others. In this case, the conspiring group is the one faking the death.
Most people have already jumped to the conclusion that he was murdered. That's child's play for conspiracy theorists.
The real conspiracy theory is he faked his death!
Whoever allowed enough of a lapse in his suicide watch that the concept of him being "found" at all even makes sense should be fired and sued for gross malfeasance.
He should have gotten that horrible 24-hour naked suicide watch thing that Manning got, all the way until trial. Certainly he demonstrated better need for it.
Predicted by Martin Armstrong
Not saying this should be taken without a grain of salt but I think they argue their point somewhat well.
Epstein just didn't seem like a guy who would have a guilty conscience and decide he couldn't handle all any more.
I looked a bit into his case, mainly prompted by articles like these:
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20576530
There made the point of connecting Brin to Epstein and other SV tech people, but then Clinton didn't show up to his dinner party once. Hmm. It seems to me like there is a deeper connection to the Clintons since they are going out of their way to distance his from Epstein with such awkward articles.
I guess, maybe those who feel brave enough should see if the prison warden or one of the guards on duty ends up getting some scholarships or trust funds for their children. Or one of them suddenly pays off a large chunk of their mortgage.
He did seem to me like a guy who would take the prospect of a life sentence very badly, though. Based on recent reporting, he seemingly believed that he was going to usher in a new stage of human development through a combination of spreading his own DNA (i.e. impregnating dozens of women) and funding research into genetic engineering, AI, and maybe even ESP. The near-certainty of recent events dooming that project could have been a fatal blow to his ego.
https://www.nytimes.com/2019/08/10/nyregion/jeffrey-epstein-...
So, yup, definitely fishy for him to be taken off suicide watch.
Unfortunately for this community, one of our MIT heros was on that list. Don't even know what to say.
Edit: Added "and perhaps ..." at the end.
If someone is going to tell you that someone of Bill Clinton's magnitude doesn't know exactly who the person is whose private island he is a guest at--then that person is full of shit.
Powerful people do their due diligence.
P.S. pardon my tone. I know that's out of spirit for HN, but this case...I am mad.
Actual title of a news article.
This is the state of modern journalism, no one confirming a commonly known rumor until the guy is arrested. It takes a village to raise a child, but a nation to ignore it.
> Bill Clinton: The former president visited Epstein’s private island while Giuffre was there, she claims in one of her depositions. Giuffre stated that Epstein held a dinner for Clinton on the island. (In a statement previously made to Forbes, Clinton denied ever visiting Epstein’s private island.)
https://www.forbes.com/sites/lisettevoytko/2019/08/09/unseal...
It might be possible for the victim to sue his estate in civil court but the odds of success there seem low.
I don't see a mechanism on HN to refute "off-topic" posts.
Marvin Minsky's relationship with Epstein was not of interest to HN readers but Epstein's death is?
Mystifies me…
2. being the one acquaintance willing and eager to talk with the prosecutor for Epstein's first case, and thus enabling the prosecution to make progress
Exactly - the prosecutors no longer have that capital, otherwise it would come off as getting another rich guy get away with it, again. Not to mention those involved in the last deal are already in a world of trouble.
But he suddenly succeeds within 24 hours of the information drop on Friday that named many rich and powerful individuals, to which he would possibly be the key witness? Isn’t that a bit suspicious?
1. Committed suicide by shootings himself 15 times at the back of his head
2. If you are surprised by his suicide, imagine how surprised he himself was
Reddit has been predicting this for days or weeks now.
Someone has bought their idea of justice with death.
There's not much evidence that 15 minute observations work, and some evidence they cause harm. If someone's risk is high enough for them to be on observations they probably need to be on continuous observations.
Continuous observations are tricky. Imagine another person being with you 24 hours of the day, watching you while you eat, bathe, defecate. We want to avoid them if possible because it doesn't build the patient's / prisoner's safety. It keeps them safe for those few days, but it may significantly increase their risk afterwards.
And this is if the observations actually happen. Sometimes staff lie. https://twitter.com/KirstenSjovoll/status/106738247933674291...
15 minute obs disturb sleep and don't work: https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/bjpsych-bulletin/art...
But there is still a chance he committed suicide willingly. Perhaps he himself couldn't stand the upcoming revelations and bribed the guards or someone else to remove some of the restrictions so he can roam free enough to do the deed.
I read before,he has had a conviction at some point where he only served time on weekends and basically had cops dedicated to his "protection" who called him "Mr. Epstein" unlike they would a normal prisoner.
I just hate concluding with incomplete information at hand.
The current political crisis is the crisis of trust.
That "political crisis of trust" is not entirely organic, and mentioning Pizzagate is an example of why that shouldn't be taken at face value. Pizzagate wasn't just a meme, it was an orchestrated attempt to poison the well of support for Hillary Clinton and the Democratic campaign. People in this very thread are still trying to push a connection between Epstein, Pizzagate and the Clintons.
I mention this because whenever this "crisis of trust" is brought up, inevitably the blame for it is placed either entirely on "the left," "the (left-wing) media establishment" or (probably leftist) politicians... in other words, its scope and nature is almost always framed in a way that benefits a specific political narrative.
Any real controversy will be amplified, inflated and exploited by foreign interests these days.
Or the "underage girls" were actually fembots designed in an underground lair by radio controlled sharks?
Acosta said the reason he didn’t give him a harsher sentence back in 2007 was because he “belonged to intelligence”.
>> He’d cut the non-prosecution deal with one of Epstein’s attorneys because he had “been told” to back off, that Epstein was above his pay grade. “I was told Epstein ‘belonged to intelligence’ and to leave it alone,” he told his interviewers in the Trump transition, who evidently thought that was a sufficient answer and went ahead and hired Acosta. <<
https://observer.com/2019/07/jeffrey-epstein-spy-intelligenc...
Reference: https://youtu.be/m4NUFTwAlQc
He was reportedly on suicide watch following an earlier incident.
People on 15 minute observations can and do die by suicide.
If someone is at risk and you think obs are going to help (they don't always help, they can make things worse) you need to have them under full time obs.
But even then how close does that need to be? Two staff members within arms reach 24 hours of the day, including during eat, bathing, defecating?
It’s going to be really interesting to hear how it happened.
> Robert Gangi, an expert on prisons and the former executive director of the Correctional Association of New York, said guards also generally take shoelaces and belts away from people on suicide watch.
> “If he’s on suicide watch, it's virtually impossible to kill yourself,” Mr. Gangi said.
> To take an inmate off suicide watch a “post-watch report” needs to be completed, which includes an analysis of how the inmate’s circumstances have changed and why that merits removal from the watch.
https://www.nytimes.com/2019/08/10/nyregion/jeffrey-epstein-...
This is untrue. From what we can tell suicidal people care deeply about what other people think.
You say that, yet you went through the trouble of writing a reply that ponders this exact question: At what point does suicide become morally acceptable?
I do think it is an interesting question. I'd go the way of saying: If you still have serious responsibilities (as in this case), it is immoral.
It's worth noting that suicide used to be a serious offense - or even a capital offense, ironically.
Which is such a stupid phrase because most other 'inalienable rights are removed when you're incarcerated, thus they clearly aren't inalienable.
"Inalienable" means it can't be removed. That's different from whether or not someone respects the right.
Somewhat related, though tangential - there are countries that do not punish for prison escapes or attempts. You will be put back in jail if caught, and circumstances might be changed to mitigate risk, but the underlying reason is "a fundamental human desire is to be free, and we cannot (additionally) punish for acting upon that desire".
To your point, I don't think I would live very much longer than ~10 years in prison; it's unconscionable. It's also interesting in the context of this administration's allowing for the death penalty at the federal level, with some complaints about "cruel and unusual punishment" flying around as a result.
Some religions argue suicide is a sin that sends one to eternal hell.
Lots of interesting ideas surrounding this ugly chapter, the least of which is the conspiracy theories. Epstein was never a credible witness, and would not have talked anyway. There is an underlying theme of revenge (rather than justice) in some of these comments that makes me uncomfortable.
We need to get his victims very good therapy so they can heal from their traumatic experiences.
The civil suits will continue against Epstein's estate.
There is no way to humanely force people to tell the public what they know. This doesn't really impact the accusations against him other than preventing people from asking him questions to which he lies as a response. His suicide does not erase the evidence, nor witnesses and accusers.
Now more than ever, if you see something - say something. No matter how esteemed a person may be within their field of activity, monstrous acts demand the swiftest of retribution.
Oh an just by the way, this news broke first on 4chan (thread 222518349). That just on the matter of what the value of these sites are.
edit: and already there are [dead] comments who question this
He was murdered, far more logically.
His cell's camera also "mysteriously" stopped working.
Somehow, he hung himself, which should have been impossible at the facility he was in.
The odds make it extremely probably that he was "suicided", that is, murdered, and then have his death announced by a corrupt coroner as "suicide".
As it is, it seems like he was probably murdered by strangulation.
How often?
"Every time I read an article on bagels it's about bagels!"
I'm asking how common is cover-up in relation to prison-suicide, not if it occurs at all.
Are you denying that police doesn't commit extreme brutality?
How can anyone give a number? Sure, one can give a number for suspicious cases but how can anyone say for sure that a given suicide was in fact a murder?
Can you always access the actual information regarding what happens in jail?
How often do you think Black people are mistreated by police? What are the actual numbers of black people being subjected to police brutality? If you cannot provide the actual numbers, does that mean it doesn't happen at all.
I am all for data but many times I feel like people ask for data just for the sake of derailing the otherwise meaningful discussion or because they're trying to be over smart.
I'm asking how often they are cover-ups.
> Are you denying that police doesn't commit extreme brutality?
I'm asking how often they are cover-ups.
> How can anyone give a number? Sure, one can give a number for suspicious cases but how can anyone say for sure that a given suicide was in fact a murder?
Maybe someone has done some research into this or is otherwise more informed than I and I would love to know.
> Can you always access the actual information regarding what happens in jail?
No but one can certainly try.
> How often do you think Black people are mistreated by police? What are the actual numbers of black people being subjected to police brutality? If you cannot provide the actual numbers, does that mean it doesn't happen at all.
That's irrelevant to my question.
> I am all for data but many times I feel like people ask for data just for the sake of derailing the otherwise meaningful discussion or because they're trying to be over smart.
Sometimes I feel like people derail a thread because they're presumptuous and read too much into a simple question.
Although this feels less like a conspiracy than an open demonstration of power. "Yes, we run everything and we're completely above the law to the point we don't even need to hide it anymore. What are you gonna do about it?"
CNN: "Jeffrey Epstein died by suicide" NyTimes: "Jeffrey Epstein hanged himself in jail" ABC: "Jeffrey Epstein died by suicide"
etc etc. Just go to Google News and see for yourself. It's as if no reasonable person could possibly suspect that he was helped along, even though literally everyone was saying he will not live long enough to see trial, for months.
Lots of very powerful people (including some/all of the media owners) want this swept under the rug as quickly as possible for obvious reasons. I expect that it will be memory holed within a week at most.
If DOJ/FBI/US penitentiary is not complicit, they should take in Ghislaine Maxwell into custody at this time and put her on the suicide watch, but for real this time. And possibly also offer protective custody to some of the girls who are testifying.
Does the state drop everything? Are the materials made available for other cases?
1) Killed by cleaners doing the bidding of the elite to protect them and cover up their misdeeds. If so, the reach of the mighty is total and that would explain why so many politicians and public figures are scared to commit to changing anything and why police detectives commit suicide mysteriously and why so many public officials "fall in line" isn't just to keep the dental plan but to stay alive.
2) Committed suicide because he was either loyal to a foreign intelligence agency or to whoever is on the other side of the people he was helping blackmail. A disciplined foreign agent? Seems unlikely. Maybe more of a rogue agent or someone who "left the reservation" as they say. Usually those types get cleaned up before they can do much damage, but suppose he was protected?
3) It is entirely possible that he entered a witness protection program of some high-level variety. I think this is less likely since those types of things usually happen after the trial and this was his own trial but the evidence entered into the record would likely have implicated many public figures and well known people. I would venture as far as saying 99% of those people would be Democrats. Sorry to make it partisan, fwiw GOP establishment people are just as crooked, but they accept bribes.
3a) Like the allegations surrounding Ken Lay, maybe he had enough money to create his own escape? It would be "allowed" the way it was "allowed" that El Chapo escaped from prison in Mexico. Bribery, deals, etc.
4) Facing the prospect of remaining behind bars for the rest of his life (10-15 more years?) he took the coward's way out as did so many evildoers before him. Recall that he hobnobbed with the fanciest and most fast moving people in the world and to be brought low like this is impossibly damaging to that kind of personality. It's also possible, however unlikely, that his conscience finally caught up to him. He certainly did abuse a lot of young women.
What have I missed?
I'm enthralled but also disgusted with what is going on these days. In the span of just one week we've seen 8chan taken down, which, even if you hated that place, you have to admit was a major blow to actual freedom of speech on the Internet. Someone used influence and corporate preference to do what governments couldn't do, which is shut up a vocal minority asking real questions. We can't even have the barest, most meager free speech, not really. Yes, that site was full of antisemitism salted with kiddie porn, but I suspect that stuff was spammed there by agents provocateur in order to chase away the curious. It was just too constant a thing, as was all the astrological horseshit and other attendant, easily debunked nonsense. How better to marginalize dangerous minds than to apply the "child porn" label to them? There is no better way! Wait until "Red Flag" laws get weaponized.
So Epstein is dead or won't be heard from again, at least. Assange is next. What after?
The entire Western world seems to be sleep-walking right into totalitarianism. When we lose the rule of law or when there is two sets of policies for the elite and for the "rest of us" or for the "party loyal" that portends the next wave which is violence. It is entirely clear that violence is what is sought, too. They aren't even pretending to care what moderate people think anymore or who ends up being harmed, as long as power keeps concentrating.
I think there are many other possibilities, but unfortunately, we may never have a more conclusive answer than the one we have now. Without trying to give any particular weight to any of these:
Perhaps he unintentionally died during an "enhanced interrogation", and death by suicide is an officially sanctioned coverup.
Perhaps he died naturally of a heart attack, and for whatever internal reason (to cover for the lack of proper medical response?), the prison decided to report it as a suicide by hanging.
Perhaps he was poisoned by a guard or another inmate simply because accused child molesters don't fare well in prison. The prison decided that declaring it a suicide was better than explaining why their security was so poor.
Perhaps the rumors are true that he was working for an intelligence service (US or foreign) and he was sprung by his employer. The apparent suicide is merely a coverup to explain his sudden absence, with the prison deceived as well.
Perhaps nothing at all has happened to him, but for some reason the prosecution and defense decided that a false story about this was the best way to "flush out" some other offender.
I think the real pressure should be on obtaining proper video evidence of whatever did happen. Who knows if it's true, but there are rumors of camera malfunctions. Like police body cams that seem to avoid recording crucial moments, this would seem incredibly suspicious. Was there ever any video found for his "previous suicide attempt"? If nothing else, perhaps there can be a change in policy so that at least the expectation of video evidence will prevent some future recurrence.
The idea that this guy killed himself out of despair or whatever is an unbelievable laugh. He was psychologically a reptile.
Now I'm not claiming any of these things, but I can see why there's going to be a field day with this one. That everyone saw it coming should have made it less probable, not more.
Have you ever seen documentaries of prisons in South American countries?
Peru has some truly apocalyptic examples of prisons that are just walled yards with dilapidated shelters and no guards. Well, maybe a maximum of watch towers manned with snipers...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nvu575hiOOc
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peruvian_prison_massacres
In these prisons they just drop raw ingredients for food that the gates to the yard, and transfer them to the inmates' possession. On occasion there are incidents that require communication or the transfer of individuals, and they treat it like handling hostages.
So, it's not like your suggestion isn't in use. Consider the shape it takes, when directly applied to real world scenarios.
I'll just note that you come across very combative. HN is intended to be an environment of thoughtful and substantive discussion. I would recommend that you peruse the guidelines[0] for discussion.
Some specific feedback on what I interpret as combative, and what I expect led to the killing downvotes:
The first paragraph is very dismissive and responds to your assumption of the intent of the parent, rather than something they said. I would suggest a clarifying question to understand what shape they expect their suggestion to take, rather than assume a strawman.
The second paragraph is disparaging and suggests that you consider the parent to be ignorant.
I know the guidelines say something about not talking about voting but there are times when I guess it would be good to understand the spirit of that rule instead of the letter.