Toronto tech is growing but relying on outside talent | Hacker News Reader

Toronto tech is growing but relying on outside talent

blog.brainstation.io

18 pointssalbowski14 comments

This article seems to implicitly characterize it as a positive, but the lower cost of business in the Toronto tech scene is subsidized by low wages for tech workers.

As the article states, the talent and diversity of education is top-notch, but the compensation is yet to match—Toronto tech workers need to demand higher wages.

When you compare cost of living in downtown Toronto to the average developer wage there, it is pretty grim. You can make the same amount or more outside of Toronto (Mississauga/Oakville/Hamilton/etc.) while the cost of living is down significantly. You could live cheaply in Toronto, sure, if you like rats and cockroaches.

I recently made the move from Hamilton to Toronto. While I completely agree, the COL in Toronto is through the roof compared to Hamilton, I've found it to be worth it.

Toronto is a world-class city, Hamilton and Mississauga simply are not.

Keep in mind this anecdote is coming from a single male in his 20's, so I've found the nightlife, music scene, and social opportunities to make the high cost of living worth it.

I would further argue that tech jobs in Hamilton/Mississauga (or other satellite/burbs) don't compete with Toronto-proper in terms of compensation. Which leaves you with 1-2 hour commute each way just to try to save a bit on housing, and still not getting the benefit of properly compensated tech work.

>I would further argue that tech jobs in Hamilton/Mississauga (or other satellite/burbs) don't compete with Toronto-proper in terms of compensation.

I have to disagree with you here. The highest paid senior developer job I was offered in downtown Toronto was about $155K (after benefits etc.) meanwhile I'm working a contract job in Mississauga that pays significantly more than that ($70-80 per hour per client, 40 hours+ per week). Its a personal anecdote sure but my experience over the last ~6 or 7 years of working in the GTA has lead me to that conclusion.

I don't think you can compare full-time employment with an hourly contract directly.

The rule of thumb I've heard a few people use to convert from employment to contract is to multiply your hourly employment earnings by 2.5 to arrive at your contract rate. By that math, you're still under-earning outside of the downtown core.

Mind you, I'm not sure that conversion has ever fully rung true to me, but the general point of not being able to directly compare still stands.

2.5 seems a little excessive. By that math someone making $100,000 a year salary should be earning $150.00 per hour contract. $150.00 per hour contract at 40 hours a week is about $312,000 a year.

You're right about not being able to make a direct comparison. My understanding, and the reason I choose to work contract, is because we have OHIP, so health benefits aren't too important. I think a company pays something like ~$5,000 a year per employee to insure them. Then when you factor in bonuses (if any) the salary rate is still abysmally small compared to if I were to work contract.

I went from making $70,000 a year in Toronto, to $70 per hour. That jump for me was absolutely massive, and I essentially started making double (after taxes $70K per year became $140K per year).

Perhaps the problem is not the pay in Toronto. Perhaps the problem is with salary developer jobs in general.

This. If you're commuting 1-2 hours this is a hit on your income...i think most don't realize this. Downtown toronto is worth it depending on your goal.

I just had a flashback to living cheaply in San Francisco. I had a room in a Tenderloin SRO. I saw a cockroach in my room about once a week. Until my neighbor the hoarder moved. Every cockroach on the planet had been hiding under his stuff, and when he moved his stuff, they decided to come check out my place. Shudder...

This is great to see. I visited Toronto for the first time last week and was amazed to see how much the city had to offer. It was so clean and the PATH pedestrian tunnels were the coolest thing I've ever seen.

I would have no qualms moving to Toronto from the United States to work if the right opportunity arose.

Even with the current compensation scene ? Software salaries seem to be really low everywhere except US. Even in other places its the american companies that pay well and the rest are bad.

No. Personally, I would have a hard time turning down SF, Seattle, or NYC for Toronto; this is mostly because of salary.

I've never been to SF, but compared to the other two cities I named above, Toronto was much nicer imho. For a city of 2m+ people, it just felt incredibly clean and safe

Exactly. A ton of Toronto devs I know have left for the US. The base salaries are higher, and the exchange rate only adds more.

Salaries generally are lower compared to the US everywhere I've looked. Those labor protections and social safety net aren't free is my guess as to why.

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