Victims are often criminals, and that is a paradox American policing can’t solve
theoutline.com
theoutline.com
The article has a really big blind spot, in that it fails to mention the Drug War even a single time.
If you want to understand why America's police act like an occupying army- the militarization of weapons and approaches, the festering hostility between the police and the policed, the heavy-handed suspicion and disregard for those under their protection- then you have to start with the Drug War.
Policing against victimless crimes is fundamentally a different endeavor than policing against normal violent or property crime. In a rape, assault, or robbery there's a clear victim to come forward. Crime gets reported, police investigate, criminal gets arrested, community improves from having a violent psychopath off the streets. It's a simple formula, everybody's happy.
But when you're trying to police the crimes of drugs or prostitution or illegal lemonade stands, there is no aggrieved party. Just two or more people engaged in a mutually voluntary transaction. Hence there's no way to stop this activity besides butting into people's lives, violating their privacy, kicking down doors, and harassing random people on the street. You're no longer hauling away lunatics that hurt people. You're arresting mothers, sons, and boyfriends who are just trying to make a living.
If you want the police to be respected and valued by the communities that they police, then focus on restricting their activities mainly to victim-centric crimes. The resolution of which provides tangible value to the policed. Adopt a Portuguese-Style approach to drug policy, where usage and low-level dealing of drugs is decriminalized and treated as a health rather than criminal issue.
- many drugs are addictive and this can lead to addicts turning to crime to try to fuel their addiction. yes we could offer more public support for such things, but these tend to be lifestyle choices that people revert to over and over.
- some drugs themselves can have a strong connection with abnormally violent and dangerous behavior - for instance, PCP.
- other drugs can have potentially extreme side effects even with minimal usage. olney's lesions / brain lesions are but one example. of course the same is true of e.g. alcohol, but the quantities involved are quite different.
- any drug that is illegal will result in a black market. this black market tends to trend towards violence. there is potentially big money to be made in drugs and criminal enterprises tend to attract criminals who don't just constrain their violation to their product.
"You can't do heroin because you'll get addicted and might steal in order to fuel your addiction." "But I haven't actually stolen anything yet, so what crime has been committed?"
Are there any other cases of a victim-less activity where we preemptively arrest/prosecute people because that activity might lead to crime someday?
Oddly enough in AZ you are supposed to have a victim for a crime yet you can be charged with criminal speeding and there be no victim.
You are so far into the wrong here its sad... not only sad but the fact you cant see it is scary for the future of this nation
Legality (must be a law) ... Actus reus (Human conduct) ... Causation (human conduct must cause harm) ... Harm (to some other/thing) ... Concurrence (State of Mind and Human Conduct) ... Mens Rea (State of Mind; "guilty mind") ... Punishment.
Without a victim you have no crime
Public intoxication less so, but it is also mostly used as a pretext to remove people from public spaces in cases where it is obvious they shouldn't be there.
Speeding is also mostly treated as a minor infraction, not quite a crime. Sure, if you really do it good, you can get detained for an extended period of time, but you really have to do it good to end up in that situation.
Speeding, public intoxication, etc. in the typical cases don't have victims because we as a society have decided that we are not victimized by small increase in risk of a negative outcome.
However, writing statues that we expect to be violated and then leaving it up to the cops' discretion is not exactly a recipe for the fairest outcome.
Speeding is arguably not victimless. Someone pointed out the "shooting into a crowd without hitting anyone" analogy, which is apt. You're engaging in immediately threatening and dangerous behavior.
Public intoxication is also not victimless; that's the "disorderly" part of "drunk and disorderly" (whether it gets enforced correctly/equally is a different discussion.) This is actually a great example of my point: you can get as drunk as you want, and no one will care until you start disturbing the peace, being belligerent, damaging property, urinating in public spaces, etc. If you're drunk and sitting in a bar quietly, it's not a problem. We don't arrest you because you might drive drunk later, we wait until you actually drive drunk. We treat other drugs completely differently.
I think you made all the rest up. "We as a society" I read as very subjective. I for instance don't regard risky public behavior as victimless. Am I not part of your society?
As practical examples such as Portugal show, it generally leads to a significant drop in both drug use and the detrimental factors associated with it. More police time and money can be spent on real crimes, and jails are free from many non violent offenders.
The last last point is a particularly significant benefit for the USA as the justice system has such an irrational focus on punishment over rehabilitation, so most prisons serve more as criminal training camps.
I think you're right that the drug war was a factor, but I think you're wrong in why it was a factor. It's not some arbitrary distinction between what you deem to be a "victimless" crime, as if there was never such a thing in the 1700s and 1800s. The reason is that it's an arms race. The police always want to be better equipped and trained at dealing with a situation than they people they're up against. If it's unarmed protestors, they want organized formations and tear gas. If it's a drug cartel with assault weapons, the police want tanks and helicopters.
I’ll even bet they are using kettling to invoke a reaction from protestors. They aren’t passively responding to protestors, they are active antagonizing the public to justify their brutality.
No, they brought in that equipment to deal with the riots. If it was just protesting but not rioting then that would be a different story.
The tools are a force multiplier which is necessary when you're outnumbered. There are fewer police than rioters.
This is related to the economic dynamics of military surplus and nothing more.
The US is extraordinarily violent. That's where you need to start: why is violence so common and acceptable in the US?
What is not common in the US is a respect for others. The police do not respect the citizens. The citizens dont respect the police or the govt.
Respect is earned. Tell me you think the police or govt has earned our respect ? Because of this mutual lack of respect violence is almost certain.
>Violence is usually too far removed from the relevant abstractions. It's not difficult to see violence behind everything, because rules don't mean much if they aren't enforced, and it's all too easy to conflate violence with a threat of violence, or a threat of force with a threat of violence, etc.
> But that's not a very useful perspective; a well-functioning society filters violence so that it is only applied when things go seriously awry, and most of us should only ever threatened by minor inconveniences. To focus on violence is to be reductive; it is like trying to talk about programming in terms of electromagnetic laws -- yes, computers ultimately run on electricity, and social powers are ultimately enforced through violence, but the abstractions we've built atop those facts are actually very relevant and useful.
This is insane... who defines that group ? Are all govts legitimate ? Do all govts get to define violence ?
There is no ethical violence or all violence is ethical because your reasons arent more valid than someone elses
My government has never forced me to do anything with a threat of violence -- I have been threatened with different manners of obvious inconvenience, but if that is no more acceptable to you than an actual threat of violence, then I'm afraid that is an unproductive, reductive, and uncompromising opinion.
How is that not violent ?
Wrong, even in simple assault cases it's possible for the victim to be charged with the assault if the person committing assault goes to the court house first and files charges. This blocks the ability of the victim to file charges and allows police to pursue them as the criminal.
A small handful of states permit "private prosecution" of crimes, with very significant limitations. It certainly can't be used to shut down the victim in the fashion you describe.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Private_prosecution#United_Sta...
The "race to the courthouse" article you linked doesn't even specify which country it applies to, and cites zero sources.
It appears to refer to https://definitions.uslegal.com/r/race-to-the-courthouse/, which isn't about criminal prosecutions at all. It's about certain civil law situations.
https://www.marylandcriminalattorneyblog.com/carroll_county_...
"This is because without a weapon or serious injury the only crime would that could be charged is second degree assault which is a misdemeanor in Maryland. The police can only arrest in misdemeanor cases if they actually witness the events. Otherwise, the police are supposed to simply write a report and advise the combatants as to the procedures for filing charges against one another. "
Re: here because out of reply subthreads:
I'm not mixing the two up. I called the police after having my jaw broken in a one sided assault and filed a report. The assailant went to the court house and filed charges officially and one week later I was charged with assault. This was leveraged by the public prosecutor to prevent me from filing civil and criminal charges against the assailant as terms for myself not being prosecuted or subject to a trial by jury. The only people who seem to be aware of this situation are lawyers and law-savvy repeated violent offenders who use it to escape prosecution.
https://www.enlawyers.com/1836/attorney-information/maryland...
> In most counties prosecutors review the charges before they are formally filed.
I can't find any indication TN permits these sorts of private prosecutions.
I suspect you're mixing up filing charges with making a complaint or police report. Being the first to reach out to police/prosecutors may count in your favor (credibility-wise, not on a raw legal level) as the alleged assailant filing their own complaint afterwards looks more like retaliation for fairly obvious reasons.
I don't think China lacks export opportunities, yet is the source of most all of the worlds fentanyl-type drugs. Up until a couple years ago Canada was a huge source of pot for the US. Canada has a thriving export market. Mexico too.
It doesn't necessarily mean they do more drugs than whites. It just means that "the war on drugs" is often just one more justification for a long history of coming up with excuses to throw blacks in jail and generally crap on their lives.
The US has a talent for either framing rules in a way that causes trouble for people of color or interpreting behavior by people of color differently than the same behavior by a white person.
"The Nixon campaign in 1968, and the Nixon White House after that, had two enemies: the antiwar left and black people. You understand what I’m saying? We knew we couldn’t make it illegal to be either against the war or black, but by getting the public to associate the hippies with marijuana and blacks with heroin, and then criminalizing both heavily, we could disrupt those communities. We could arrest their leaders, raid their homes, break up their meetings, and vilify them night after night on the evening news. Did we know we were lying about the drugs? Of course we did."
Go back much further than that. Go back to the civil rights movement. Go back to jim crow. The history of the American war on drugs was born of racism and continues its birthright. That is the real sticking point, the source of the high emotions surrounding drugs. The drug war is a proxy for much more difficult issues.
There was also definitely communities overran with drug related crime that were desperate for help. When a single mom can't buy her kid a bicycle because the last 3 have been stolen out from under him by addicts looking to score, she's going to ask the her elected representatives for help.
That seems like burglary/robbery rather than a drug-related offense.
It's also completely besides the point here, as we're discussing the statement:
> There was also definitely communities overran with drug related crime that were desperate for help.
arguing that these sorts of drug-related crimes motivated some communities to embrace "hard on crime" attitudes.
What often gets missed is that high up members of the Republican party are on record as intentionally escalating the war on drugs to attack their enemies (black people and anti war hippies amongst others).
So if they thought that the war on drugs wasn't a "problem" but rather an opportunity, then they have no incentive to "solve" the problem, in fact quite the opposite. Any consequences that then follow from drug related crime must ultimately fall at their door, not the person they've led into addiction by policy.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/local/longterm/tours/s...
> But obtaining the crack was no easy feat. To match the words crafted by the speech-writers, Drug Enforcement Administration agents lured a suspected District drug dealer to Lafayette Park four days before the speech so they could make what appears to have been the agency's first undercover crack buy in a park better known for its location across Pennsylvania Avenue from the White House than for illegal drug activity, according to officials familiar with the case.
> In fact, when first contacted by an undercover DEA agent posing as a drug buyer, the teenage suspect seemed baffled by the agent's request.
> "Where the {expletive} is the White House?" he replied in a conversation that was secretly tape-recorded by the DEA.
> "We had to manipulate him to get him down there," said William McMullan, assistant special agent in charge of DEA's Washington field office. "It wasn't easy."
"The Nixon campaign in 1968, and the Nixon White House after that, had two enemies: the antiwar left and black people. You understand what I'm saying? We knew we couldn’t make it illegal to be either against the war or black, but by getting the public to associate the hippies with marijuana and blacks with heroin, and then criminalizing both heavily, we could disrupt those communities."
"In 2013, the ACLU published a report titled "The War on Marijuana in Black and White". The report found that despite marijuana use being roughly equal between blacks and whites, blacks are 3.73 times as likely to be arrested for marijuana possession."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Decriminalization_of_non-medic...
This one is the original marihuana legislation, predating Nixon's war on drugs, right?
> "The Nixon campaign in 1968, and the Nixon White House after that, had two enemies: the antiwar left and black people. You understand what I'm saying? We knew we couldn’t make it illegal to be either against the war or black, but by getting the public to associate the hippies with marijuana and blacks with heroin, and then criminalizing both heavily, we could disrupt those communities."
When was this originally published? I keep seeing it in a 2016 magazine, which is a bit odd given how groundbreaking a revelation it is. Especially considering the quote was collected 22 years prior, and the man died 17 years prior. Was this around and just not well known at the time?
> "In 2013, the ACLU published a report titled "The War on Marijuana in Black and White". The report found that despite marijuana use being roughly equal between blacks and whites, blacks are 3.73 times as likely to be arrested for marijuana possession."
Adverse impact, problematic enough, does not imply something was made with racist intent.
It shows that the intent continues to be racist. This disparity is ongoing, not historical; if it's truly not racist, why not bring the amount of possession charges in line with usage?
It shows the impact, not the intent, continues to be racist. It doesn't really say anything about intent, at least without a lot more data. If white and black usage differ in kind somehow - say, pot brownies vs smoking on the street (I have no idea if there is a racial disparity here) - it could lead to a difference in police involvement without any racial discrimination.
If I go fishing for redfish I’m going to end up catching a lot more saltwater fish incidentally. Doesn’t mean I hate freshwater fish, that just means in not fishing in an area where I’m going to find many freshwater fish.
>...Baum claims Ehrlichman said that to him in 1994 while he was researching for a book he published in 1996 about the drug war. He didn't include the quote in that book, but instead published it in 2012 and again in 2016, after Ehrlichman had died (in 1999).
This is an amazing and explosive quote - if Baum had included it in his book in 1996 I am sure it would have garnered a great deal of attention. Instead Baum would not include it in his book, but instead would wait for decades later when Ehrlichman was no longer around to dispute it.
At any rate, if the quote was actually said by Ehrlichman, it doesn't actually describe the drug polices of the Nixon administration. While Nixon is remembered for "war on drugs", the actual substance of his policies seem to be different than what people think it was:
>...I have been fortunate over the years to discuss the distorted memory of Nixon's drug policies with almost all of his key advisors as well as with historians. Their consensus is that because he was dramatically expanding the U.S. treatment system (by 350% in just 18 months!) and cutting criminal penalties, he had to reassure his right wing that he hadn’t gone soft. So he laid on some of the toughest anti-drug rhetoric in history, including making a White House speech declaring a “war on drugs” and calling drugs “public enemy number one”. It worked so well as cover that many people remember that “tough” press event and forget that what Nixon did at it was introduce not a general or a cop or a preacher to be his drug policy chief but…a medical doctor (Jerry Jaffe, a sweet, bookish man who had longish hair and sideburns and often wore the Mickey Mouse tie his kids had given him).
http://www.samefacts.com/2011/06/drug-policy/who-started-the...
https://chicagounbound.uchicago.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?arti...
The disparity is in charges of possession. https://www.huffpost.com/entry/racial-disparity-in-marijuana...
Race has little to do with the criminalization of such drugs, as evidenced by the answer to the above question.
As it was clear in the my own country (xUSSR), the criminals are developing their code, where "snitches get stiches" and any cooperation with law enforcement is forbidden by it (e.g. in a prison so called "thief in laws" won't to do any work).
The drugs, especially hard drugs and prostitution are not victimless crimes. Human traffiking is a problem, the impact of drug addicts who is looking for new dose is real.
We've stopped holding the police accountable for their actions and it's out of control. Local government, state government, prosecutors and most of all the Unions are to blame. Yeah, the Union, I'm the son of a Union executive and Unions have lost their way.
The Union is supposed to protect the possibility of a loss of a job position, the individual from unacceptable working conditions and unjustified sanctions, but they should also be holding the individual up the standards of conduct, but that's been lost. The union should be wanting to oust a bad cop, the position won't go away, so there is no loss of a job position, but if the individual isn't living up the the standards of behavior it reflects badly on the rest of the organization, and harms their strength. I watched my father walk union members off jobs because of poor performance, and after repeated failures throw them out of the union.
The unions themselves have become a very dangerous criminal gang, they carry weapons, they control people's lives, and they basically have no accountability. The populace is afraid, the politicians are afraid, and the legal system is afraid. The police have become paramilitary goon squads with their own agenda.
A friend's uncle just retired from a southern police force, while he was working he was pulled over 10's of times for DUI and was never charged because he's a cop. Now that he's retired he's drunk all the time and is constantly getting pulled over and driven home, but he's never been charged. He's only had a few minor accidents that got covered up because the police threatened the other driver. He'll keep doing this until he actually kills someone, then it will be interesting to see if anything happens.
Until the police are held accountable the problem is going to keep getting worse. Career criminals who are victims aren't the only people at risk, we are all at risk.
The "unarmed black man shot and killed by police" is heavily pushed by media companies because, well, its an emotional issue that gets ratings, sells newspapers, and gets clicks. Same thing with "terrorist threats", shark bites, and airline crashes. People view it because it's dramatic and it sticks in your head more because of it.
This bias is called "availability bias" and it causes people to see the problem as much greater than it actually is.
https://www.factcheck.org/2015/11/trump-retweets-bogus-crime...
Starting with the most obvious point, the Crime Statistics Bureau of San Francisco doesn't exist.
Availability: A heuristic for judging frequency and probability
edit:
> The reality of the availability bias isn't in question, it's whether or not people's belief about police brutality is accurate
It would be nice to have some objective evidence showing why this example is a special case immune to availability bias.
The issue isn't just being killed by police - It's also being beaten by police, having things unlawfully seized by police, being unjustly cited or arrested by police, and so on. So yeah, being unjustly arrested and spending a weekend in jail waiting to be arraigned on Monday is better than being killed, but it still sucks.
You need to be able to show some compassion in this job and try to actually help people instead of just being a squad of gun wielding weirdos who show up to cart any suspicious people away, guns blazing.
In most other countries police has an active role in settling disputes using empathy and compassion, instead of just arresting people and locking them away.
The way US police tend to operate fits well within a justice system that is focused on draconic punishment instead of rehabilitation and reintegration though.
Some people need a guiding hand to find back into society. In the US you're liable to get kicked into the mud and danced upon instead.
This sounds false to me outside of some Western European areas but I don’t have data to support it
I mean comparing Baltimore to (say) Prague is a bit like comparing it to Malibu, I'm not sure we learn much. But compare it to districts of Rio, for instance, and then maybe we can learn something about how different policing approaches play out.
https://i.ibb.co/gMtDhgQ/b.png
Full PDF: https://www.unodc.org/documents/data-and-analysis/Crime-stat...
Sadly I couldn't find the number of arrests made in any useful comparison, but US police have a policy of "taking people in" for almost any offense, so I'd expect it to roughly match that.
In places where the police have an active role in settling disputes, they also enjoy more respect from the community.
Violent crime then decreased by about 50% to 2014, though that still of course leaves us at a level multiple times higher than where we started. And it's now back on the rise. Here are the raw numbers [1]. They're quite interesting to consider.
Something I'm quite curious about on Hacker News, preempting the downvotes can people explain what they find offensive about data?
Looking at the "data", one would conclude that Autism is on the rise. But we didn't even know what it was not too long ago. And we sure as hell didn't check for it. There are more diagnoses of Autism because we're actually looking now.
Today, domestic violence would be classified as a violent crime. In the fifties, it was called keeping your wife in line.
Lynching a black man was a way to keep him away from your pristine daughter in the fifties. Now. It's a crime.
Fortunately, there's a much simpler response. Just referencing the data from the provided link (starting in the 60s) [1], the increase in crime is for literally every single category of crime. And most saw very dramatic increases: robbery 400%, assault 500%, burgularly 300%, theft 300%, auto theft 300% increase, etc. You can cast uncertainty on some of the figures but the extremely high rate increases paired with the fact it was spread across literally every single crime leaves little 0 doubt that there was absolutely an exponentially increasing crime rate between 1960 and 1991.
As one aside, that 1991 date is really quite peculiar. Nearly every single crime hit its peak in that year. You'd expect different crimes to decline at different rates or even statistical noise to have played a role. Yet at a glance the only crime that didn't hit its peak in 1991 was forcible rape, which peaked in 1992. The 'Military Cooperation with Civilian Law Enforcement Agencies Act' [2] formalizing the increasing militarization of police (which would really go into overdrive after the North Hollywood shootout) was passed in 1981.
[1] - http://www.disastercenter.com/crime/uscrime.htm
[2] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_Cooperation_with_Civi...
Defenders of police misconduct tend to cite the "it's just a few bad apples" line without noting the full adage is "a few bad apples spoils the barrel".
These guys are supposed to uphold the law, instead they prop up murderers and accuse the justice department of railroading “innocent” cops. See “Police union blasts ‘sham trial and shameful’ Van Dyke guilty verdict” [0]
0: https://chicago.suntimes.com/2018/10/5/18460941/police-union...
Contrast this with the principles of policing by consent [0] that define the ideals (though not necessarily the reality) of policing in the UK and many other countries.
The thing is is survivorship bias often shows in the media. most police encounters are not reported in the media because it's common and everyday. But the very few that turn into a big production get reported because it gets ratings. So through survivorship bias, confirmation bias, and availability bias, the problem seems bigger than it actually is.
I'm not sure that it's true that "most other countries" police work the way you're saying. There's a good book on the problems of policing world-wide, " The Locust Effect: Why the End of Poverty Requires the End of Violence by Gary A. Haugen,Victor Boutros".
Draconic punishment is not ideal especially because criminals return to society with less prospects and are likely to turn to crime once again. That is if they return at all.
Now imagine the TSA and Border patrol and many other government security institutions. So many cast offs.
https://abcnews.go.com/US/court-oks-barring-high-iqs-cops/st...
US law enforcement agencies have conducted joint training with Israeli experts for decades. So it should be no surprise that our police forces have taken on a callous "siege mentality".[1]
[1]https://theintercept.com/2017/09/15/police-israel-cops-train...
If an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure, teaching social and emotional skills to children would help a lot, though would take a generation to see widespread results. Our schools not only don't teach social and emotional skills, they teach submission to authoritarian rule and remove what could teach social and emotional skills: recess, free play, the arts (doing them not history or appreciation). Schools are among the most authoritarian institutions. (I recommend Peter Gray's Freedom to Learn blog https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/freedom-learn, especially Children’s Freedom: A Human Rights Perspective: https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/freedom-learn/201902...).
Schools could help a lot, specifically, teaching skills through experience, not abstract facts to fill out bubbles on standardized tests.
You might also be interested in my books, which teach the social and emotional skills of leadership, initiative, and entrepreneurship, based on courses I teach at NYU.
Initiative: https://www.amazon.com/Initiative-Proven-Method-Bring-Passio...
Leadership Step by Step: https://www.amazon.com/Leadership-Step-Become-Person-Others/...
One of my past students used the Initiative skills to teach the Leadership material to youths in Gaza https://leadpalestine.com. Every situation is unique and it's just one project, but his project shows promise of teaching youths before they get caught up in violence. He tells me that the program helps change views of leadership from command-and-control, authoritarian to based in understanding and support, though I'm oversimplifying. I'm just sharing one example.
I blame this on the war on drugs. The risk and reward from the drug trade has gotten so high that a human life isn’t worth much. Distributing pays well. Getting a life sentence from being caught is the risk. So, in a dealers mind, taking life to prevent theirs from being taken is justified.
How do you do any kind of fair analysis without just presenting data? If the cops used inflammatory language, then shame on them. But if it was just numbers, it's hard to argue against clean data.
[1] People often confuse: 1. State-monopolized administration of 'public' services. 2. Mandated spending (supplied through tax) with private administration. (This is the model Sweden uses[2])
"People Are Hiring Private Police Squads in Detroit" - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4pt6hnabnkU [2] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jq3vVbdgMuQ
Here's a shining example from Arlington, TX: https://www.dallasnews.com/news/crime/2014/02/12/ex-arlingto...
Arlington has recruitment trouble, like so many other police forces around the country. Normal people don't want to join the steroid-addled gang, that leaves only highschool bullies who don't mind the low pay and love hassling the public.