Kept alive with tubes for nearly 17 years
latimes.com
latimes.com
Now she's lying in hospice bed with only minor control of her eyes and even less of her mouth. Barely concious. At most minimally responsive. Feeding tube, oxygen, urinary catheterer, central venous catheter. She's kept alive and somewhat sedated.
First reccurence she had after 5 years after initial treatment and diagnosis. Last recurrence happend in two months. It's already a month past last operation.
I'm a bit torn because I'm firm realist and I believe no matter how bad life is, it is the only thing that has a value for you because it's the only thing you have. When your life ends, there's nothing else, no new game, not even admiring your high score. Your life has an ultimate value to you and you have to try to make the best of it even if it consists of sleeping on morphine all the time till your body just falls apart.
On the other hand... she wished to die on an operating table under general anesthesia. Unfortunately she had too good surgeon for that to happen. If she were to spend 5 years like that I think she'd wish for her cancer to grow faster.
I am so sorry for your loss. I need you to know that your words moved me deeply. Particularly
> People often asked me, if she still recognized me. I often explained that that was a meaningless question. For me, it was far more important, whether I still recognized her. And I did.
One of the hardest parts on me was seeing my father suffer a similar decline, but it was the moments of lucidity or idle chat or little things that showed me he was still there to some extent. Thank you so much for saying what I have long felt in my heart.
The thing is there are no decisions to make. She'll be kept alive as long as possible as law and religious morality requires. All the previous decisions that were made were the most reasonable we could take and there were barely any alternatives along the way.
The hard thing for us is just experiencing it all the way and beyond.
Although I live in a rather liberal country, the choices are still rather limited. The general approach for people with dementia who are accepted in a care home is palliative care: focus on their well-being, not on extending or shortening life. But there is some room for movement, although the final decision is always in the hands of the responsible physician. For example, as family (or personal representatives) you may indicate that you wish that the administration of antibiotics should start as soon as an infection is suspected or delay it as long as possible, instead of it being administered only to relieve discomfort. We decided for palliative care. But still I felt that there were moments, when choice were made to extend her life. Not with respect to medical treatment, but with respect to feeding her. She was given special high-energy drinks and especially in the last half year, a lot of effort was made to feed her. For example, when she was too tired during a meal time, they would try to give it at another moment. Yet, I felt that I did not have the moral right to interfere or to even bring up the issue. I have respect for the manner in which the decisions were made by her physician and the people who took care for her. Although it was hard to go through the experience, in the end I was at peace with my decision to not to interfere and basically let the professionals make the decisions. But maybe my situation was much easier than yours, because my wife long ago had lost the faculty to know that there were any decisions to be made.
I know what you are both going through. I know what myson & wife is going through, seeing me on my bad days during treatment. Knowing that one day I will leave them sooner than we had originally planned.
No matter how bad things are or appear to be I'm a firm believer that there's more after this life and unfortunately we have trek through the good and bad of this one to get to the end. Besides, where did we come from before we were born?
I only live for today, because this is all I have.
Be strong if you can. It's tough and hard. What we are experiencing is apart of life
Peace
I think only one thing really matters: QUALITY of life.
Life is not intrinsically sacred. QUALITY of life is to me.
However this belief of mine is currentlly being viscerally challenged.
From someone who's been on the other side of the story (albeit nowhere close in severity) I can tell you that this is a philosophical debate that you might have with yourself for years and not really reach a solid and stable conclusion. Because it will change depending on your state. Like promising never to drink again during the worst drunkenness or hangover.
On one hand that low quality of life may be the worst thing you ever experienced and there's the distinct risk of going even lower. On the other hand we have no idea what lies on the other side - nothing or something that may be better or worse. And of course there's always the sliver of hope that all goes well and giving up on life too soon is a waste.
I can clearly see with myself how my mood affects my train of thought. And how my mood comes from the state of my body. I think I can stay grounded pretty well even when my mind is in terrible physical condition and goes to the darkest places as a result of that. I can somewhat filter out the influence of mood on my thinking.
> On the other hand we have no idea what lies on the other side - nothing or something that may be better or worse.
We can be pretty sure that there's no other side. All of neuroscience, medicine, biology and what we know about neural networks point to it being that way. The only thing that points to there being some other side is uneducated* people's fantasies and wishful thinking.
* (at least in neuroscience and medicine)
Perhaps it's just like torture, given enough time and suffering things change. Every person has a breaking point. I can't imagine anyone taking torture as "keep doing it because it's still better than dying".
> We can be pretty sure that there's no other side.
Pretty sure. I'm not a spiritual person so this isn't about religion. I was just being thorough so until I get to see nothing on the other side I will at least give the option a passing mention.
And I don't think your mind hangs on to life just because once it's over there's only nothingness. The human mind probably can't even conceive what "nothing" means. You might hang on for more "practical" reasons, like "I spent years building this life, I can't waste it especially if there's a slim chance it gets better".
You can ponder eternal torture and not existing but I'm talking about more down to earth thing. Your single life. You will never have anything besides it. It's not eternal torture, it's not even all torture. It is everything you own and the only thing you own. How could you give up any future piece of it that you didn't have to?
In cases where we have to make hard decisions like this, I find some solace that they have made their decisions ahead of time so that we only complete their requests.
I don't envy you at all in this. The same thing happened to my dad, except the life-saving measures failed, and the doctors said there was nothing else they could do. They gave my mom an 'out', since it was not her choice.
To me this proves there exists a threshold at which no life is better
This is why it's desperately important to be honest with your loved ones about what your wishes are, and to respect and help them with theirs.
Personally, I want to live now, and I suspect from watching other people at the end of life, I'll know when I'm ready to go.
If you do find a way out, the idea that life itself is sacred (regardless of quality of life) can help keep things in perspective for next time.
I think it might be helpful to have distance to your feelings. To understand that unlike your thoughts, your feelings have direct purely biological source. You might find it easier to suffer through them, like you can suffer through limping.
I hope I'll never get depressed so I won't have to find out whether that makes any difference.
Distancing yourself from your feelings may help temporarily, drugs do that.
Occupying your mind with activities that provide a positive reward loop and positive feeling (hobbies, exercise, social activities) likely makes the most difference.
I find this to not be self consistent. you would trade two boring work days for one awesome day right? Two bad weeks for a happy one? There has to be some long tail of uncomfortable days that you would rather enjoy on a shorter time frame, even if the long tail is unknown length. Might a warm send off not be preferable to difficult times ahead?
Sorry for your situation.
In principle you are correct, but in practice you rarely can make such choices because you can't possibly know the future.
You can think you are choosing better life by foregoing the treatment, but it turns out that severe symptoms set in sooner than expected and your life's bad anyways. Or you can think you are choosing longer but worse life but the side effects of the treatment don't seem to affect you much, therapy works way better than expected and you get to experience some joy you couldn't wish for, like holding your newborn grandchild.
What people usually do is balance probabilities and go for longer non-horrible life and hope for the best, and when everything becomes horrible there's usually not much left to make decisions about, which are inherently flawed even then.
I mean I get that people make their own choices. I just am confused that more people aren’t interested in having a death of their choosing. Or even consider it. Like, I have a song that I would like to hear as I’m dying. I want to think and reflect on things and feel safe in spite of the incoming end. I am convinced that with a better cultural mindset we could make death a happy, celebrated, communal event that people look forward to in a bittersweet way. The way most people die to me sound sad for all involved, including the dying.
If you like to make decissions you can make and implement them now.
The thing is decissions are tiresome. You might want to forgo some avoidable decissions and focus more on pleasures of living.
Is this built on anything, or is this your axiom?
I'm all in favour of the tubes. My partner is not. If you don't know, then your fate in the system is left to others. The AHD won't give you your wishes but it at least tries to address them.
If you think the future will bring amazing medical breakthroughs and immortality, then tubes is only temporary and all you gotta do is hang on long enough.
I'd say don't bet on it.
The changes to life expectancy and quality of life from early low hanging fruits (most of which weren't even that advanced, like clean water, washing hands for surgeries, basic antibiotics, etc.) dwarf later developments such as heart surgery, bionic limbs, and advanced drugs (aside a few important breakthroughs for people affected with specific conditions).
A more realistic outlook is whether you think you might eventually get out of the coma -- which does happen.
Perhaps I'm just unimaginative, however I can't really fathom a world in which it would make economical sense to cure the ill rather than simply prevent people getting sick. Economically those with illnesses and/or genetic conditions (myself included) unfortunately seem like a bit of a lost cause.
As for preventing people getting sick—well, from what I've heard, a significant reason older people are more likely to get cancer is that their immune system and their body's ability to repair itself are weaker (and one part of cancer is DNA damage), so it seems like the most likely approaches to preventing cancer are also going to help with curing other illnesses.
There is more to life than money. There is more to humanity than capitalism.
I have Sarcoidosis, a genetic condition that means my immune system literally attacks my own body. It's extremely rare. Should I demand that a hugely disproportionate amount of money be spent to cure me so that I can enjoy this theoretical immortality? Seems a bit selfish. That money could presumably be spent to benefit many more lives beyond my own.
This isn't pro-capatilism reasoning, it's just being realistic and reasonable.
EDIT: To clarify I'm not advocating that we don't invest money in treating Sarcoidosis (or other rare conditions); right now it's much more realistic and more likely to cause immediate benefit than immortality moonshots! However, down the track perhaps the best investment would instead be prevention in newborns. In which case I'll miss out. A shame for me, but if that happens to be the approach that's going to have the best net positive outcome for society, then go for it.
However, we live under conditions of extreme supply for many things, including most factors that would inhibit healthcare. We rarely need to choose.
And until then your whole existence would be confined to perpetual pain. This is the stuff of nightmares.
As @ggm mentioned the documents...everyone should get an advanced directive. Anyone can do it and you don't have to have a reason, unlike a DNR which has more restrictions and requires a doctor's approval. A living will/advanced directive is a 5min bit of paperwork you can get done free at hospitals and doctors offices in most places. Submt it for your medical record and keep a copy in your emergency papers. Unsure how much it would have helped the guy above as I don't know the full story, but it's easy to do and important to have. I've seen loads of cases where people were strung along barely or not even "alive" by any metric other than "technically". for months and years and families fought over care etc. Don't put it off as tomorrow might be the day you need it.
A DNR might be good for people in specific circumstances but an advanced directive should not be required to be allowed to die.
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Could be useful.
*Cannot format it properly sorry.
this varies upon states. Definitely check with the state that you're in.
I'm a Paramedic and sadly, we experience these situations rather often. End of life issues are tricky and it's a conversation that people want to avoid, but it's a conversation that I believe they absolutely must have.
While it is ridiculous to me that they didn't do a simple fingerprint check, it's kinda strange to use this language and then go on to tell how the "system" has provided round the clock care for over a decade costing millions of dollars. The system seems to care. I'm sure on the BP side they are just overwhelmed and don't have the manpower to run something like this down.
The assumption that someone who can’t communicate pain is unable to feel pain seems misguided at best.
All of a sudden the decades of research that had been interpreted as showing babies didn't feel pain was overturned and new research showed they did.
Medical research really is mostly a series of fads.
What would you chose?
I'm not saying that this is the exact case with infants. Just trying to illustrate there might be valid reasons to inflict temporary pain to save health.
Anesthesia usually includes drugs with distinct, separate actions, like an analgesic (to block pain receptors), muscle relaxants (so patients can be moved/organs accessed), CNS depressants (to prevent unexpected spasms disturbing the surgeon), coma-inductors (so patients don’t chat with the staff and freak them out after practicing on cadavers for years), and amnesia-inductors (because surgery is kind of gross).
We know enough about them to use them safely, but most anaesthetic drugs are somewhere on the spectrum from "not fully understood" to "a complete mystery". Science knows how anaesthesia works in the same sense that I know how a car works - I can push the pedals and turn the wheels with sufficient proficiency to get to the grocery store in one piece, but I'll be damned if I can explain what's happening under the hood.
> medical science isn’t so good at explaining why the drugs have these actions
you can see I'm in full agreement
On the other hand, painful stimuli tend to (e.g.) increase a person's heart rate and blood pressure, and that the proper anesthetic plane blocks those responses, so it's clearly doing something in the moment. What we don't know every well is the mechanism of action for general anesthetics.
It's not just "it's hard and we're lazy so lets make up an excuse" like you seem to be implying.
Edit: Since apparently it wasn't clear, we're talking about the timeline when this issue was hashed out, so the 1980s. Anesthesia carried substantially more risk then because back then we didn't understand it nearly as well.
It's one thing to say, we're not going to use anesthesia because it's too much risk, it's another to say that they don't feel pain at all so let's not worry about it.
It is one thing when it is readily apparent neccessity -medics can only give you morphine while your guts are hanging out and getting you potentially barely saveable would cost say ten other lives of people who only need the bleeding stopped. It is another thing entirely when they have all of the time in the world and it involves tough decisions nobody wants to make until the conclusion is utterly foregone like total brain death.
If, in the end, the patient recovers, what a happy ending that would be! And we might learn how to better assist others in this condition.
The alternative is giving up forever on such cases. This is also partly why I lean "against" on euthanasia.
There are cases where people recover after years being in coma. However, there are many, many, many more people in the same state who never recover, who are just plants.
Life is not sacred. Quality of life is.
3. Patient's affirmative consent (antedated if need be)
I too am happy to live in a country with a humane policy towards voluntary end-of-life, but this is not a clear cut case where euthanasia would apply: this is a patient with at least some consciousness left, but that no court would find competent to make decisions, and with no known relatives (up until the reporter found one).
The question then becomes not only whether the required conditions for euthanasia apply, but also whether the state-appointed legal guardian has the mandate to make such a fundamental decision on behalf of the patient. Personally speaking, granting that kind of power to a government representative is not something I'm comfortable with.
English wasn't his first language. Or even second.
That has to be complicating things.
> With the help of a video interpreter, Schnakers gave Ignacio a series of commands.
And he's spent about half his life in the US with extremely limited ability to interact at all and probably mostly hearing English.
What language do you think he's supposed to be capable of responding to? One of the two he grew up with, but hasn't actually used in half a lifetime?
There are documented cases of people with head injuries losing the use of one language they knew but not another.
I have a serious medical condition and I grew up in a bilingual home. I've had incidents where I was exhausted and stressed out and could not speak English for an hour or more, only German, though I'm not especially fluent in it.
I don't care what language you use with Ignacio. He's probably not mentally fluent in any of them anymore, having nothing to do per se with how impaired his brain is and everything to do with the fact that he's probably mostly not heard either Mixtec or Spanish for half his life and has instead been immersed an English-speaking environment with which he mostly couldn't interact.
12 kids, mom and dad and 9 kids dead...the others scattered :(
After watching my grandfather succumb to Alzheimer’s I’m relatively certain we’ve taken some forms of hospice and medical science too far. Albeit, extending the life of our bodies past the reasonable lifetime of our brains.
I get what you are saying, but let's not forget that "the will of the natural world" includes dying as an infant from diarrhea, an untreated fever, etc. There are plenty of diseases which are now easily treatable and yet killed millions until a century ago.