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Comment by echelon | Hacker News Reader

I want to live in a world where everyone is confident in themselves and doesn't care what others think about superficial details outside of character.

In the far-far future that may never come, I imagine people exist in a virtual continuum and can change all aspects of their appearance such that they never feel slighted by their perceived place in a fitness gradient they cannot change.

Maybe technology is helping us get there. Or maybe it's showing the deep facets of our evolutionary makeup and our learned societal pressures, and we're incapable of doing anything but pay it lip service.

Being human animals kind of sucks, because intellectually we strive for more. But we're tied to these basal frames.

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On casting Sir Patrick Stewart as Captain Picard:

Reporter: "Surely by the 24th century, they would have found a cure for male pattern baldness."

Rodenberry: "No, by the 24th century, no one will care."

I doubt even a few hundred years will wash out vanity and the worst parts of us, but here's to hoping.

I have lots of gray hair before 40 and don't even think of dyeing it.

Of course, this is not so different than vanity on my part, as I'd be mortified if I was dyeing it and someone found out...

I have a brother-in-law who's been dyeing his hair, and wears a toupee (a very poorly fitting one) - for whenever he's at some kind of formal function or whatnot.

This is a guy who drives dump trucks and excavators, and could crush you with one hand - I swear to $DEITY. He's not a bad guy - actually a very nice man. But if you got on his bad side, watch out. I once saw him lift a full large wheeled garbage bin up and over his head and shake it out like it was nothing - like it was kitchen garbage can. Not someone to mess with.

He normally - in everyday life - doesn't care what he looks like, smells like, etc - he'll go right into a grocery store covered in oil and grease from working on his backhoe in the middle of summer, buy a soda and walk out, and he'll smile and wave, call ya "hon" and "boss" - pet the dog on the way out, ya know.

But clean him up and put him in a suit - all of a sudden he's embarrassed that his hair is thin and gray, etc. I've told him that he should shave himself bald, because he's got that classic "Mr. Clean" head shape that would make it look good. Few people can rock bald, but he won't do it.

Instead, he just puts a ball cap on if he's out in the sun, and ignores it I guess.

When I realized I had started to bald (yaaaay genetics) I had a bit of a personal identity crisis, but I didn't really try to hide my stress about it. My coworkers joked that I hadn't accepted it yet, and they were right.

I don't like that it happened this early, so I'm fighting to delay it for a bit, but I'm sure my baldness will catch up to me eventually. It's fine really. My grandfather rocked the look and his appearance will always remind me of the strength he carried. When my time comes, and what little vanity I still have fades, I'm happy to carry on that legacy.

I shave my head, but I dye my grey beard. I know it probably looks like a "dye job" but so what? Is it any different from tattoos or other body modifications? And I can undo it by growing it out.

My argument is that I have the same basic impulse, it is just that I respond differently to it.

That's a cool quote, but I think the reality of the situation is that as technology gives us more control of our personal appearance looks move from an explicit status indicator to more of a fashion choice.

Vain people will definitely still exist, but excess weight or baldness will be probably be a conscious presentation choice and social signal, rather than a marker of genetics or dietary habits.

In this environment it would be incorrect to say "no one will care", but hopefully people will care less and less as they age out of that period of their life in which self expression and fashion choices tend to have gratuitous importance based on our insecurities of youth.

I imagine your assessment to be more realistic, and the quote to be far too optimistic, even though I wish for the opposite.

I know women have an entirely different level of pressure in this arena and the idea of not wearing makeup or being fashionable enough has a larger impact on them socially...as a man I recognize the differences...but have still never cared about such things and not wanted to invest myself in those who would judge me or someone else because of shallow things. I will, as I mentioned in another comment, be respectful when it matters, and not say go to a funeral in pajamas and unkempt, as to not make it about me. But in my daily life I leave vanity at the mirror. My behavior defines me to anyone I care about and theirs to me, not looks or trends.

I believe vanity of some sort is an innately human trait, I doubt societal changes will eliminate it. Rather I see a future that the reporter was alluding to, where our bodies are just as customizable as a digital filter like the streamer used. Who knows, as crazy as it may sound, perhaps in a few hundred years most social interaction will be "assisted" by VR, AR, or some other reality changing technology where we do present ourselves as digital avatars.

That VR future idea sounds horrifying to me. I want to know the genuine person, not fakery. It just ruins the point of any relationship for me...which is to share experience, honestly, vulnerability. If it all becomes a performance then why do we even need people? Just some AI pretending to be some character is good enough.

While I agree with you, I don't know why exactly I agree you. Allow me to explain. The "real you," the "genuine" you, is nothing more than some random, arbitrary (for the most part) stuff you got from genes and the environment surrounding you (as in, it's effect on you) and, to usually a lesser extent, some of the life choices you've made. Now, it is you in the sense that you've lived with it for your whole life (some could say, put up with it, depending on your luck of the draw and what you think//how you feel about it).

I think the real you is really your mind. Our minds are so special, and on such a higher level, that the physical manifestation is very simplistic in comparison. To illustrate: we seem to look down on those who do as this woman did, but if someone was, say, a burn victim with 1st-degree burns all over their body including the face, we wouldn't think twice about using technology to improve their lives this way (btw, anyone know if this used in any such capacity?).

I'm providing some food for thought as I am challenging my own initial knee-jerk reaction which is "this is horrible, what have we become?" If there's one thing I learned about human behavior, it is that there is usually a whole lot more than what meets they eye (pun semi-intended) going on.

I understand. Our mind is "us" and not something we can really let anyone else see. I guess I believe that some people live more in genuine sync with who they are, which can be done in a functional way that still allows you to exist in society, and some are wearing mask over mask over mask in order to manipulate the system or people. It sounds exhausting to me and makes it hard to trust people.

About the burn victim example, I wouldn't feel "normal" hiding my scars no matter how severe. I don't feel using tech to hide scars or alter appearance is an improvement. It speaks poorly to society that people think they NEED to to fit in or not be discriminated against. It's up to us to treat each other with respect despite such things, not up to the person with those issues to hide them to blend in...in my idealistic view I mean. I know that's not how it works...sadly.

> I want to know the genuine person, not fakery

Mot actually possible, since we all wear masks, depending on who we’re around. In the office, I am different from when I’m remote, which is different from when I hang out with my RPG buddies, which is different from my church face, etc.

There’s a different drivingmenuts for many occasions, but they are all me. Just different me’s.

This is normal for everyone.

The one thing I don’t do is mask up to defraud people knowingly.

Right, you'd have to get rid of the visual aspect of sex appeal. Impossible.

Part of the thing that's left mostly somewhat unsaid of the whole fictional arc of the Star Trek universe is that there was a full-exchange nuclear war, which led (IIRC - I am not a major trekkie, though I prefer it to Star Wars - each has its place, though) to the contact with the Vulcans.

Then again, I am not sure that if we actually went through a full scale nuclear exchange, that in the end if we would change socially. I have a feeling that rather than change for the better, humanity would change for the worse.

In that vision, "Mad Max" would be a utopia in comparison.

I don't think she was using the filter because she was self concsious, she was trying to mislead young men so they'd give her money. Similar things happen on twitch. There was one woman on twitch who hid her marriage so people would think that if they donated enough money, they'd have a chance at a relationship with her, and people who donated thousands of dollars to try and win her favor were really upset when they found out she's married. The streamers are just selling a relationship fantasy to lonely young men.

mislead is a very loaded word here. Those men have no special entitlement to a woman on the internet being sexually available to them. The idea that they should have such a thing reminds me of https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perfect_Blue

> mislead is a very loaded word here. Those men have no special entitlement to a woman on the internet being sexually available to them.

And she has no entitlement to their money. She is misleading them to get money, and whether they are entitled to her being sexually available is, actually, entirely irrelevant to the truth of that description, and nothing about such an entitlement is implied by describing her deception as misleading.

They do, however, have a right to an affectional preference. And if a person is selling affection for money, lying isn't OK.

We can’t deny reality though, underneath all our behavior is sexuality and violence. Beautiful people will always be treated differently, physically intimidating men will always be treated differently.

If you were born 500 years ago would you even be alive today? I had a hernia when I was 3 so I would have just been one of the millions of babies who never even made it past 5. I am constantly torn by your vision (a world of perfect equality) which is also a world of pure stagnation, and our current world.

I think it's unlikely that "beautiful people will always be treated differently". For one thing, this is much less true today than it was a few decades ago, but probably more true than it was a few centuries ago. Further, what is considered beautiful changes constantly. I am attracted to women and what I found physically attractive in women 5 years ago is different from what I find attractive today. And you can see the same in broader society.

Maybe at the extremes, people will always be treated differently but I don't think that's a given.

> I want to live in a world where everyone is confident in themselves

This lady has plenty of confidence. She has as much confidence as any confidence man and was making plenty of money off of it.

People forget "con" is short for "confidence trick."

I don't think this is a matter of self-confidence. It's a business decision. Appearing young/attractive means more money for your efforts.

Are they really superficial details? You can't separate "character" and a persons desire to look good, have good posture, be athletic, not consume too many resources (and be overweight), know how to move, walk, and talk with poise. Yes, some people are born with a good set of genes, but much of this is also accomplished through hard work. And that hard work comes from _character_.

Without making any comments about my moral stance on this, I am pretty confident that this will never happen with the current biological makeup of humans. The best we can hope for at some point is beauty and physical attractivity available cheaply and for everyone, at their own choosing -- whatever and whenever they'd want.

Humans are evolved to be attracted to certain physical things, and although it would be nice if we could get around that, I think the easier thing would just be to accommodate for it.

This woman is trying to trick men into sending her money. Don't be naive.

Trick men? In return for what?

What a hilarious spin on this. Are you implying they signed a contract or something? The fault is on the men who were stupid enough to send money to begin with.

The outright chauvinist attitude of tech bros is funny and sad, to say the least. "It is the women who are to blame for me acting horny!"

>What a hilarious spin on this. Are you implying they signed a contract or something? The fault is on the men who were stupid enough to send money to begin with.

Agreed. They fell for her... trick. Why do you believe the two are mutually exclusive?

There is no trick without some mutual agreement on what will be given in return. And there wasn't any agreement.

Your reasoning is the same as this: a guy takes a girl out to an expensive dinner, expecting sex in return. And then he yells foul when she declines, even though there was never any agreement on her end. "But she tricked me into thinking she would!"

You are parroting the same bullshit, chauvinist reasoning that is so pervasive in the tech community.

>There is no trick without some mutual agreement on what will be given in return.

Says who? You? Even though I think you're being purposely obtuse, here's the definition.

>a cunning or skillful act or scheme intended to deceive or outwit someone

She used a filter to appear attractive to lonely men who will send her money. What is difficult to understand here?

>You are parroting the same bullshit, chauvinist reasoning that is so pervasive in the tech community.

Jesus. I'm sensing that you enjoy being outraged.

If you bothered to RTFA, you would see that she disclosed that she was using a filter.

My analogy still stands. She wasn't promising anything in return for their money. There was no trick.

>The Global Times reports that all was as normal and that her fans urged her to show her face and remove her filter but she refused, instead apparently saying: "I can't show my face until I receive gifts worth 100,000 yuan ($11,950). After all, I'm a good-looking host."

She is not "a good looking host", as evidenced by the mass Exodus from her stream after showing her face accidentally. She lied to get donations. This is all very obvious.

>My analogy still stands. She wasn't promising anything in return for their money. There was no trick

No it doesn't and you're inventing your own definition of the word "trick".

> I imagine people exist in a virtual continuum and can change all aspects of their appearance

in our actual reality, that sentence is completed with "given they have enough money to purchase visual upgrades, and those without money using default skins are the ones that are discriminated against." (Sad, that I think that's what it would be, I too hope by the time we have that kind of virtual reality we're beyond money and discrimination.)

> I want to live in a world where everyone is confident in themselves and doesn't care what others think about superficial details outside of character.

The only way to do that is to get rid of clothes, haircuts, and shaving.

Not to get religious on you, but Adam and Eve realized that we're naked around the time we evolved into humans.

I like changing my appearance. It's just part of who I am. I hope you take joy in picking your clothes, hair, ect.

I don't think anything of groomed middle aged man who are gray or are in the process of graying out, they're wearing their age gracefully, but when I see one with a bad hair dye, the instant judgement I get is one of weakness, lack of confidence in oneself, clinging to their past youth.

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