How many people reading Hacker News do not have any programming skills? | Hacker News Reader

How many people reading Hacker News do not have any programming skills?

43 pointsklbarry51 comments

This includes being able to make pretty much any sort of computer or internet program or app, basic html not included. I ask because, though I do not code, I find HN great and wonder if others feel the same way.

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Slightly different question: If you don't program, why? Because it doesn't seem relevant, or you've tried and don't like it, or you've tried and can't do it, or other people can do it well, or it seems scary, or your expertise is elsewhere, or...?

I meet lots of people who want to build things that require programming but don't program for whatever reason, and I've always wondered what the root cause there is.

Also, happy new years ;)

Probably because they don't have the mindset of a programmer. They might be good learners but lack motivation - at least that's my problem.

I don't code because I don't need to: I an employer to other smart developers who are better at development than I could ever be.

Did you have a previous venture that did well for you? I assume that's how you can afford to hire developers.

No, the company that I run now, is my first company.

For the first few years, our web development studio couldn't afford to hire anyone. On of my business partners was the sole developer. My other business partner was in charge of administering web hosting and domains. I did all the selling, marketing and project management myself.

We were outsourcing web design work to freelancers and students, because the three of us had no web design skills whatsoever. Then we changed the way we market our business and made our business website really sell. Business took off, we hired two designers and our first developer. After that, we hired new people in support and project management. I convinced one of my developers to accept a job in the sales department and that was one of the best decisions the both of us ever made; It enabled the company to hire more (sales)people and gave more freedom to me personally, so I could concentrate on running the business. A few months ago we outsourced one part of our business to a specialized web hosting and domains company, because they are doing it much better than we ever could. We hired a senior developer who took over software development from my partner, became our lead developer and is currently in charge of software research and in-house software products. He's not writing any code for our clients, our junior developer is.

Tomorrow is our company's 9th birthday. Today, we are focusing on building a powerful sales force and creating software products we could launch internationally.

I guess we could afford to hire the 10th guy in the same way we could afford to hire the 1st guy: Our business itself had to make enough money to pay for all their salaries (and our own - and we were three partners in the company). The key moment was when we put enough thought into sales+marketing and gathered enough courage to hire a complete stranger to come work for us.

Mostly for division of labor. I know plenty of programmers, but I want to focus on my most loved field - namely, mass persuasion in all of its forms, the science behind it, the history, practicing it, etc.

I don't program because I'm a user experience professional. My expertise requires full-time learning as it is.

I do work closely with programmers, though, and I consider our relationship a symbiotic one.

I don't do much UX, but I have a friend who loves it but is a little disillusioned with his education.

I am curious, what kind of schooling / experience do you have?

I went to college in the early nineties for art & design, started out by working as a print designer, and launched an independent magazine in 1992.

That led me to the web in '95, where I learned HTML by working right on the server, using vi as my text editor. We had a tiny shop, so everyone did everything. Graphic design, front end coding, content - the only thing I couldn't do was back-end stuff.

Eventually we were bought by Razorfish, and they decided some people would be called "information architects," so in 1997 I took the title of IA, and went from there.

I've studied with various mentors, but my best education has come from Nielsen Norman Group's usability weeks, and constantly pestering people in emails, on message boards, listservs, conferences, you name it. The UX community is pretty tight-knit, and people really help each other out.

In the years that I've done IA and UX, I've worked for IBM, Disney, and several large agencies. I started as a usability freak, but have expanded my horizons to realize that there's a whole spectrum of things that are important to a good experience.

The best wakeup calls I had were when Don Norman published "Emotional Design," and when Peter Morville made his UX honeycomb ( http://semanticstudios.com/publications/semantics/000029.php)

I'm now executive director for a large NY agency with offices worldwide, and I have a very diverse group of UX people in the different offices.

One thing I look for in a UX practitioner is a diversity of experience and background. Someone who studied IA in college and has only been on one path often has trouble empathizing with real world users.

I have hired people with degrees in library sciences, human computer interaction, design, computer science, psychology, human factors, even theater. It's all about how a person solves problems to me, not the degree they pursued.

I'd encourage your friend to spend more time on listservs like IXDA or SIGIA, going to conferences like Adaptive Path's UX Week and N/Ng's usability week, and making that his new education. It's incredibly rewarding.

Great reply. I have sent that along to my friend. I enjoyed it as well.

I'm a Sysadmin so programming would be useful. I can do simple scripts, scan though code, but 20-30 lines I probably my limit on anything.

At work there is plenty of other stuff to do so it's not a priority to improve my programming skill. I sit next to a dozen devs who handle all the programming for the sites.

In my spare time I'm working on a couple of other things so it's not a big priority either.

Despite the people here who say that they went for no-programming to having a huge internet facing webapp in 3 months:

(a) That was 3 months of 60+ hour weeks (b) I don't think that being a "good" programmer is that easy. The junior programmers at work have been doing it for 5 years full time. I don't think I can get to a reasonable standard in just a few months (even of 60 hour weeks).

In the general sense, I don't program anymore. I work around programming (both by breaking other people's programs and reviewing source code), but I'd say the past 12 years or so the only programming I've done is limited to small scripts written to make a specific job easier.

I'd love to say that the reason I haven't been programming is due to my company's policy strict intellectual property agreement (wherein I'm forbidden from working on open source projects, or publishing any code); but I stopped coding before that was even an issue.

The past few months I've rekindled some of my interest, I have some things I'd like to work on, and I've rediscovered an interest in math that has lead me to start to fill in some of the gaps of my experience. I'm hoping that interest doesn't fizzle out (as it usually does), and I actually make some headway on some of my projects.

In some ways I feel like we're in a golden age of programming; if nothing else I'm more excited about the state of things then I've been anytime in the past fifteen years.

I think I can offer a partial answer to the question "Why do you not program." A lot of my friends have asked me to teach them how to program. Mostly they want to learn some basic PHP so they can make minor tweaks to their own websites. So far, only one has gone on to become serious and build a career in web development, mostly doing front end stuff, some jquery, etc.

Of those who don't go further with it, most don't for sheer lack of interest. Of the infinite ways we can spend our time, they have other things that interest them more.

Of the others, the main block is the arbitrariness of programming. They usually have the same problem with math. Most math beyond addition, subtraction, multiplication and division strikes them as divorced from reality. They question whether statistics are real, or just a fluke. They'll wonder what the practical significance of solving a quadratic equation is. They are put off by the notation, and especially the wholly arbitrary and historically structured use of certain letters for equations, such as x, y and z for unknowns, a and b and c for coefficients. They will ask why? They are not happy to be told that these conventions were adopted for convenience. They will ask "Whose convenience?"

Jeff Atwood has written about this here:

http://www.codinghorror.com/blog/2006/07/separating-programm...

That page has this good quote:

"It has taken us some time to dare to believe in our own results. It now seems to us, although we are aware that at this point we do not have sufficient data, and so it must remain a speculation, that what distinguishes the three groups in the first test is their different attitudes to meaninglessness. Formal logical proofs, and therefore programs – formal logical proofs that particular computations are possible, expressed in a formal system called a programming language – are utterly meaningless. To write a computer program you have to come to terms with this, to accept that whatever you might want the program to mean, the machine will blindly follow its meaningless rules and come to some meaningless conclusion. In the test the consistent group showed a pre-acceptance of this fact: they are capable of seeing mathematical calculation problems in terms of rules, and can follow those rules wheresoever they may lead. The inconsistent group, on the other hand, looks for meaning where it is not. The blank group knows that it is looking at meaninglessness, and refuses to deal with it."

I've been reading HN for a while now- I discovered Graham's essays in high school, a year or two before he started the y combinator. I was a soon-to-be-aerospace-engineering major, then.

I haven't really programmed since my freshmen year, when I switched to anthropology. Had an interesting year, post graduation, doing archaeology for CRM firms. Then I decided I kinda liked getting paid, and now I'm doing instructional design for a retailer. I am slightly less broke.

I am also going, "Hm, all my engineering co-horts are not broke. And jeez, why do I read HN all the time? Maybe I should start playing around, again..."

But, no, at the moment, no skillz.

Not only can I not program, but in addition to that I am a female. In the past I've tried to ask questions from throw away accounts, which were poorly received. So I limit myself to reading and refrain from posting anything. It's better that I don't participate anyway, since I would be wasting a lot of valuable time, which I need to use for my other projects. The amount I've learned in the last year is staggering, and I recommend this site to friends.

I resemble some of those remarks: I also can't program and I also happen to be female. And my questions tend to not get much feedback. But I have a long, long history of falling on my face in that regard, starting well before I ever heard of Hacker News, so I don't think it's "them". I'm pretty darn sure it's me. I participate anyway. It's been a growth experience and I like it here.

YMMV, and probably will.

Count me in. Can't say how many ideas I've head for some startups but always fall short because I lack programming skills. For me, time is of the essence - and it hasn't been easy to wrap my head around programming therefore I estimate at least 5 years of learning to accomplish my ideas.

I've been reading about how no tech people will partner with someone just because they have an idea and frankly I'd like to give the middle finger to those authors, however they are most likely right as I cannot seem to find anyone to help me out.

I just wish there was a place to find good programmers with free time who want to take an idea and turn it into reality.

Any tips?

Do you ever mention your ideas to programmers at all? Or do you not know any at all?

Truth be told I don't know many. The few I know are always busy with something even though it doesn't seem like it ever takes them anywhere. Tried hiring a few and communication always seems to be a huge problem, thus projects going unfinished.

I am some what of a jack of all trades. I'm not a programmer, but I know how to program. I can make things work in a hacked sort of manner. Just spending two weeks working through a basic book on python would fix this problem. I've hired developers and designers and just being able to talk to them in their own language even at a basic level helps a ton here.

It's hard to hire a good x, when you can't do x your self. You don't know what to look for.

What do you see yourself as contributing to things? Do you have domain knowledge/experience, business experience, money or do you see yourself as the "ideas man"?

Allow me to clarify the "only an idea" issue. Ideas by themselves are not worth very much. They are just a starting point, and they usually change as the business evolves. Successfully building out a project requires many things. Programming the backend is just one part of it. Another crucial, often overlooked, piece of the puzzle is effective marketing. As a developer I would love to partner with someone who had zero web skills but was a tenacious salesperson, the kind that didn't take no for an answer. Someone willing to pound the pavement, make the phone calls, do whatever it takes to get the marketing job done. (In fact anyone who is such a person please contact me, email is in the profile) The problem is when people don't bring anything to a project at all but the idea. An idea by itself doesn't do anything; it doesn't move, take action or otherwise do anything to grow a business, so a person thinking an idea only is something that would motivate programmers is sadly mistaken.

> Any tips?

Succeed, then recruit. Without a track record it's going to be hard to convince someone to be your technical co-founder. If you want to pursue your ideas, and lack the skill set to build them yourself, you need a more convincing pitch.

What would convince me that I might want to work with you? (Were I not knee deep in my own company)

1) Past success. Join a tech heavy team and do all the non-tech work that they are not giving 100% on and help the team succeed. Recruiting with a successful history will be a lot easier.

2) Sell the product first. This obviously depends on what your ideas are, but if you pitched me to be your co-founder and do the tech work, it would be a lot more convincing if you had a pile of customers already lined up and waiting to pay. (As long as the deadlines were reasonable and it wasn't going to be a complete death march)

The key is that a founding developer knows that they are going to be bringing huge concrete value to the venture by actually creating the product. You have to convince them that you are going to be bringing an equal amount of value, and that they won't be the only one busting their ass to make it happen.

If your time is of essence then you surely understand that other people's time is of essence too.

If you want others to help you, you better start by helping your self. Take the time and learn the stuff you need to learn. Just because there are so many technologies on the web it doesn't mean you need to know them all. All you really need is HTML and CSS and a decent editor. Instead of just talking about your ideas create something that others can see.

1,273.

If you've recently learned programming but haven't been in front of one of our supported surveillance platforms lately you may still be counted in this number - please feel free to update it!

I'd love to learn how to code, but I grew up with BASIC (TRS-80 CoCo variety) and I'm a linear, spaghetti-code thinker.

I've dabbled in VB (back in 1991), used Prolog for a law school AI assignment, made great use of WordBasic (Office 95) to save a company thousands of dollars a year by autogenerating indices...

More recently I played with Android App Inventor and created a basic "English Nanny" (shake the baby) app, which took a couple of hours. C++, C#, Java etc. just seem too difficult to learn.

Any advice would be appreciated, of course :)

What AI assignment were you given in law school?

As I recall, creating an expert system for personal injury cases...it was pretty limited.

"C++, C#, Java etc. just seem too difficult to learn."

In a lot of respects, they are -- there's a lot of ceremony and boilerplate around getting started that's there to please the compiler (and programmer job security) rather than the programmer. If you want to learn to code, I'd try something like Python, Ruby, or JavaScript first -- you say you're a "linear, spaghetti-code thinker," but that pretty much describes everyone who's starting out. Something in the Python/Ruby/JS mold would make it easier for you to see relationships between different parts of your code and make the leap from linear thinking to something more organized, without the noise that languages like C#/C++/Java impose on you.

Good luck!

Thank you for the tip - I guess I should've been clearer and say, "I'm interested in Android programming and some basic Windows 7 stuff, but Android Java's too hard and App Inventor's too limited." :)

Try a functional language, before you throw in the towel. If you've got some background in Prolog, look at an Erlang tutorial, e.g. http://learnyousomeerlang.com/

OO doesn't harmonize with my brain. I find it much easier to get into a flow with functional languages.

What's the difference between functional and OO?

I don't program (aside from SAS/R statistical programming and LaTeX). I'm planning on learning how.

I have the feeling that there is a lot of potential good that an epidemiology-oriented hacker could do.

Problem is, I have no direct external pressure to motivate learning, and no direction on what to learn. Reading Hacker News is a way of gaining both motivation and direction.

I am a engineer and a unix admin in a previous life so i can code simple scripts, read/understand php/javascript (or copy some code snippet from the interweb and modify to my liking). Also as a electronics engineer i can understand high level comp sci theories...But obviously i am not a real hands-on programmer and it didnt stopped me from making millions from web projects!

Which projects made you millions?

Sorry, i can't name names!

I can't program enough to bring my ideas to life, and it frustrates the hell out of me. Yes, I'm capable of outsourcing, and I do, but boy do I wish I could do more than I can right now.

I've got 3 or 4 books from the Pragmatic Bookshelf open on my iPad at all times, and I toy with online tutorials, but learning Farsi was much easier :)

I don't code because when I was a youngster it didn't exist at all. On the other hand I wonder why a lot of coders can't play music. It seems like the two things are so closely related except with music it's more like writing code with an audience. You don't know if what you wrote works until you get to the end of the piece. Every time.

I wouldn't claim the jargon file as an authoritative source, but the entry on music claims that at least one study found a correlation between music skills and programmers.

Until very recently I had no meaningful coding experience besides a little Excel macro-ing and modifying WordPress' PHP. My New Year's resolution is to make my web app a reality, but I don't know how to code. I am on week 3 of learning Python through MIT's OCW (and many other resources), and I'll let you know when I'm done with my app!

I'm not a developer, but software development is my business, since I run a web development software company. HN is a great way to learn as much as I possibly can about this business and stay ahead. I am learning how to code (python), but I am not (nor ever will be) a software developer.

That would describe me as well, though I've taken up self-teaching myself web development since about a week or two ago. Though I come from a (traditional) business and psychology background in my studies, I feel most at home in the strong entrepreneurial culture of the tech space.

Are you taking up self teaching because you can't find anyone to help you as well? Have you had any success yet?

I'm taking up self-teaching by choice and habit because I often like to learn things on my own at first. (Half of my "education" from middle school to current college studies have all been self-taught in a variety of subjects during my spare time.) And with all the resources available -- books, online tutorials, quora.com, wikipedia, etc -- it's not difficult to pick up the basics on your own.

As for my progress so far in web programming, I'm starting from the front-end basics of HTML, CSS and Javascript first. The past two weeks were spent on relearning HTML and CSS (I picked them up back in middle school but forgot over the years) and will hopefully start on basic javascript in about a week. By my personal metric of success, I'm pretty satisfied with my daily progress and can at least build basic websites that meets established web standards.

I have absolutely no programming skills. I thoroughly enjoy HN and appreciate the coders point of view since I have worked with a bunch throughout the years. For 2011 I resolve to learn Python or Ruby.

...Does working in close proximity to engineers count? I truly believe I'm absorbing their brainwaves.

ha ha. Me too. :)

Im trying to move from the non-technical camp to the technical camp!

here's another one, besides HTML and some simple PHP I never programmed... just never had the time to properly learn a programming language

me! :)

I just started to learn how to code (Python) two weeks ago, but I have been an HN reader for about the last four months. The stories here often inspire me to progress and push myself in other areas of my life. I also like hearing about the leading edges of technology.

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