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Comment by bretpiatt | Hacker News Reader

Is playing a social game where you interact with other people any different than going out to a club or bar? Joining a bowling league? A cycling group? A health club where you go to regular group exercise classes?

The meme that video games are inherently evil needs to go away. Why is it socially acceptable to join many clubs and spend time with those people all the time but not "people on the Internet"? Like the Internet is somewhere only people that can't make "real friends" go..

Addiction to anything is bad but playing WoW or any other online game doesn't mean you're automatically "a loser" in the rest of your life -- and I don't mean just casually playing. There are people in all of the top guilds achieving high ranked world kills on new content that are also successful in other areas of their life.

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"Is playing a social game where you interact with other people any different than going out to a club or bar? Joining a bowling league? A cycling group? A health clubwhere you go to regular group exercise classes?"

The article makes the difference abundantly clear. This is what the writer learned by meeting the guild leader in real life:

"She was perfectly nice, and an excellent cook. But it was hard not to notice certain things - no matter how bad I felt for noticing them. It was hard not to notice she lived in a crappy apartment in a crappy neighborhood. It was hard not to notice she was fat. It was hard not to notice that despite her dreams of going back to school and becoming a paramedic, she just worked part-time at a local pizza joint."

It is that level of personal, real, gritty, disturbing, eye-opening raw detail that is often hidden behind an avatar.

So it is preferable to participate in real life instead of game because it is uglier?

Er... no. That's not it at all. I'm baffled how you could have read that into the quote.

The point is that World of Warcraft was taking all the time & energy that could have went into improving her life, and that she besides not on any sort of growth trajectory, may well have been getting worse - that she wasn't investing even the minimum necessary to keep her life (such as it was) viable.

Err, no.

According to my worldview, it is preferable because it is real.

This quote does raise an interesting point. Virtual settings are maybe better to get to know new people, because it doesn't matter if it is a he or she, if he is black, white, Hispanic, fat, muscular, it doesn't matter if they aren't dressed as nicely, it doesn't matter if they life in a dump or in a villa.

I know some stuck up people that wouldn't consider talking to someone without a bachelors degree. Since meeting some people from WoW in real life they changed their attitude.

These virtual settings allow everyone to meet people from all stages of life, people one would never meet otherwise. And this diversity makes life interesting.

I'm not of the opinion that video games are inherently evil but to say the social experience you get from playing a video game is some how equivalent to that of meeting people face to face is simply wrong.

The key difference being body language. So much of successful human interaction comes from non verbal cues and if you're someone for whom that doesn't come naturally then socializing in WoW is not going to provide you the same benefit as in person interaction period.

This is partially true but irrelevant. People don't join a club so they can experience body language. I assume they go so they can form a community and interact with people who share the same interest.

If visual contact was essential for forming significant relationships then the blind would be unable to make friends.

How do blind people get impressions of what we see with our eyes? They use touch, as well as the other senses.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/78553575@N00/321522242/

What can be learned by a blind person touching an avatar on a computer screen?

> People don't join a club so they can experience body language.

I think they do actually. Otherwise, why would people go through the trouble of meeting physically when they could do it on the Internet? It's not like people who meet in real life don't know about the Internet (I'm thinking of tech conferences, HN meetups, etc.) The physical experience is simply better.

People eat orange because they are hungary and orange taste sweet, in the process though they get vitamin C. Is the fact that they get vitamin C diminished by the fact that they only ate it because it tasted good?

Would orange flavored candy be a sufficient substitute here? I'd say no.

"If visual contact was essential for forming significant relationships then the blind would be unable to make friends."

Maybe the blind are much less successful at making friends. What is your evidence to the contrary?

I don't play WoW currently and haven't for over a year now but I did enjoy my time playing. I was accused of being an addict although I don't think I was - I just enjoyed playing and hanging out with people online.

It's funny reading this article and all the comments. IT's not so much about WoW vs being productive as diversions in general. I know people who spend most of their free time reading fiction. Isn't that just as bad? What about watching TV and movies? How about browsing the internet for hours on end? Yeah, maybe you learned something interesting, but unless you're going Jeopardy it probably won't really pay off.

Being productive for productivities sake is also an interesting view point. At what point do you decide to just enjoy your life by doing the things you enjoy rather than trying to "make it better". If you enjoy the journey then great - if not, do you arrive at a point where you are satisfied? Or do you continually struggle to reach some goal that is always just out of reach?

Yes - some people may feel trapped in a game like WoW. I think there are also many people who just enjoy the game and the experience and prioritize their life accordingly. Just because someone doesn't have the same aspirations as you doesn't make them a bad person. I'm sure if you ask most people they would like to be more successful - but few are willing to give up all distractions and diversions to achieve that.

In principle, sure, but the point is that WoW is indeed especially addictive in a way that a bowling league isn't.

I think it may be regional but some people take their bowling very seriously.

And you say this because you know people "addicted to WoW" but you don't know people "addicted to bowling"? Two million people playing in competitive bowling leagues each week across America. WoW has nowhere near two million competitive players. I don't have statistics for the number of casual bowlers but I'll bet you a lunch that more people spend $15/month bowling than playing WoW.

Do you think it is any different on the social obligation side for somebody to show up for a raid in WoW versus showing up for the league match? Is there a lower social obligation for the bowler to practice between matches than there is for a player in WoW to prep for that raid?

Competitive social MMOs are the recreational sports leagues of this generation.

I'd be curious to see the percentage of each that have engaged in 16 hour sessions, pausing only to eat and go to the bathroom.

What, the same social pressures don't apply in other team sports? Try to play any sport at a high level and miss a few trainings because you'd rather read a book at home. You'll get bad looks the first time, yelled at the second time and kicked out the third time.

(I'm not saying WoW is a sport, just to pre-empt a diversion in that direction).

What is morally superior about exercising an hour a day over playing WoW an hour a day, provided the lack of exercise doesn't make one dangerously obese or similar? Yet all rants like this one are based on that premise - 'I used to be such a loser, now I work out, I'm so much better than those WoW losers'. Usually from former players, too; just like former smokers are the most obnoxious about how awesome they are for quitting, the former WoW players seem to know something about self-righteousness, too.

Anyway, like anything, it's about moderation. If you play a couple of hours a week and don't let it take over your life, there's nothing wrong with it. I asked my girlfriend to set up the 'parental control' feature on my account, so I only got to play 4 hours a week. If anything, WoW at least lets you do that; I have yet to see the first skateboard or piano that has a lock like that, and there are many people who 'waste' (in the article's definition, not mine) much more than 4 hours a week on those.

I didn't realize that about using the "parental" control. Great example of a commitment device! And that's what I really mean about the difference between WoW and most other hobbies and social activities: WoW sucks you in in a way that makes you regret the amount of time you spend on it. I sometimes have the same problem with Hacker News, hence this: http://beeminder.com/d/hn

This is brilliant. I think people here can rail against addictions to WoW while lurking/posting on HN for hours a day. It's all part of the same addiction for points/prestige/social validation.

"Posting all these years to get higher karma, reading the source articles, reading the comments, for what? To help another person who thinks they have an innovative startup idea? They're all just going to get bought by Google anyway. Life is meaningless!

I'd say that at the top levels, WoW (and many FPSs) are sports at least as much as shooting, golf, snooker, chess or darts are.

And people keep using that word. There is no proof videogames are addicting, and no serious study on the subject has been able to show that such a thing as "videogame addiction" exists.

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