The Titanic Compared With a Modern Cruiseship (2014) | Hacker News Reader

The Titanic Compared With a Modern Cruiseship (2014)

waitbutwhy.com

50 pointsbookofjoe52 comments

One thing that terrible link fails to note is that they're comparing a supersized cruise ship to a transoceanic liner.

For a modern transoceanic liner, look at the RMS Queen Mary 2: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/RMS_Queen_Mary_2

Cruise ships are just mobile enough to scoot around whatever close-shore locales they serve.

Ocean liners are built for fast transoceanic voyages.

The article suggests that the cruise ship is faster than the titanic, so maybe you want to make a point about being designed to always be close to port or something, but I’m not sure that’s really the case either as these ships must go from the place they are built to wherever they are operating the cruise and that place may move about the world from time to time.

I don’t think you really can get an apple’s to apple’s comparison because people don’t really travel on fast ocean-liners anymore. They travel on aeroplanes. So the category that the titanic fits in doesn’t really exist anymore.

Titanic: 24 kts (1912)

Allure: 23 kts (2010)

Queen Mary 2: 30 kts (2003)

If your benchmark is 100 year old technology, then you've probably got an agenda in your comparison...

* All numbers from Wikipedia

The Titanic was (just barely) the largest ship of its era.

I'm fascinated by the Great Eastern launched in 1858, and not surpassed in size and capacity until Titanic's period. In length she held the record until 1899, in tonnage, 1901, and in passengers, 1913, the year after the Titanic sank.

Great Eastern experienced numerous technical challenges and was a mixed commercial success. She ended her service largely as a telegraph cable-laying ship, pressaging today's undersea Internet cables.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SS_Great_Eastern

Titanic was never the largest ship - her sister Olympic had identical measurements. Titanic was the _heaviest_ ship however.

Fair point, though as my noting of Great Eastern's dimensions there are numerous metrics of ship size, including multiple variants of several of these: linear dimensions, length overall, length at waterline, beam, height overall, draft, height above waterline, and the various measures of tonnage. Disputes can generally be raised and justified on some basis.

> "175 ft (including the long thing)"

What on earth? Do they mean the smokestack (as the singular is used) or the two masts each of which is higher?

I know this is a joke article but still...

I just got back from my first cruise, a 6-day on the Disney Dream. I couldn't help but keep thinking about how astounding the Titanic was at the time, and how tiny it is in comparison to the ship I was on. It was a genuinely incredible experience, but I can only imagine what it would be like to take a ship like that to the new world, to start a new life.

The Titanic looks so much better.

From the outside, the modern cruise ship looks like a block of cheap apartment dwellings attached to a hull.

Big fan of cruises, but only on ships with 200 or fewer passengers (Wind Star, Viking River Cruises and their ilk).

I think it's kinda sad that we don't have many cruises along our wonderful American rivers and coasts. You have to go to Mexico or the Caribbean or Hawaii or Alaska. My understanding is that they are cost-prohibitive because of a federal law requiring that any ship making a second stop in another US port is required to pay basically union pay scale to all workers.

It’s sad if paying union wages makes some service “cost-prohibitive”. Every cruise I ever took was 100% union (in Europe).

GP is probably talking about the Jones Act, which was intended to affect transport of goods. If it applies to cruise ships that's surely an unintended effect. Only ships owned and crewed 100% by Americans could (and can) go from one American port to another, IIRC.

Slightly off-topic, but given the brevity of the linked blog post and the lack of conversation here, why not.

Can anyone explain to me the appeal of cruises? You're stuck on a boat with thousands of other people as you are taken to predefined locations and undergo what I like to call "organised fun". While on board, you're their captive audience as they sell you overpriced food and drink and generally try to sponge as much extra money from you as possible. Meanwhile, you're surrounded by people from the same place as you, who, at least for me, you might be trying to be get away from. Then, at each port, typically in a place with a tourism-driven economy, the locals identify and surround you everywhere you go, trying to sell you yet more stuff because they know you're probably rich and suggestible. I have friends who went on holiday to Curaçao and were told by the locals not to shop on [insert day here] because that's the day of the week the cruises come in, when they increase their prices 50%.

While this is somewhat of a rant, I've never been on a cruise and I'm genuinely interested to hear from someone who has been on one and enjoyed it - what their reasons were, whether they thought it was good value, relaxing, etc.

Years ago, nearly all food was included except alcoholic beverages, as is nightly entertainment. It's relatively inexpensive. You just stay in one room, as opposed to going from one hotel room to another to cover many destinations. It doesn't take much planning - just select a line, ship, and itinerary, and you're set. Plus, I like being in the middle of the water. All in all, a good value.

Some of this has been diminished in recent years as the big lines have a bunch of on-board add-ons like extra restaurants that charge a fee.

It's not for everybody but there is definitely appeal, as shown by the fact that it's a large and growing business.

Exactly my thoughts. Also cruise ships are ludicrously bad for environment.

It is astonishing how bad for the environment cruise ships are. To such an extent that I can't see how any modern citizen would support these enterprises.

Some friends of mine go on the JoCo cruise every year, and I lament the fact that they do - otherwise ecologically sensitive people, who do have an awareness of their local ecological footprint, nevertheless insist that the JoCo cruise is 'different' because its a nerd event. This kind of duplicity is very disappointing.

Cruise ships run on giant Diesel engines which emit far, far more pollution than is warranted for the 'pleasures' delivered. It is the height of decadence to be floating around dumping shit (literally) into the oceans and pumping pollution into the skies, while sitting around watching TV. This is just so irksome.

However, you can't limit peoples choice and the freedom to decide for themselves. Its a pity that the cruise ship industry is so good at hiding the ecological impact behind a good time. This is something ripe for disruption in my opinion .. based on what I've heard of the JoCo cruise, it could be replaced with a bunch of VR headsets at the beach, and still provide the requisite nerdgasms without killing wildlife ..

Most US cruises are all inclusive for a lot of things.

So the best possible spin is that it's a prepaid American hotel room that happens to travel the world.

I have some friends that enjoy them in groups. And you can certainly get deals when they're trying to fill unused rooms.

If you have kids, it is a vacation trip where you can relax: there is no way your kid will get lost in the woods, be kidnapped or something like that (there is a 10 feet glass fence all over the boat).

Right, because nothing bad could ever happen to children in a 16-story floating steel jungle with 6000+ strangers in close proximity.

That is the whole point, the ship is an environment where kids will never be alone. Bad things can happen everywhere and you can't protect your children all the time.

If you have kids try it and compare with other vacation trips. And if you don't, parenting is that kind of experience you must live it yourself in order to fully understand.

I do have a child.

> That is the whole point, the ship is an environment where kids will never be alone.

I didn't misunderstand that part. My original point was that you're trusting that none of the people there will do something that harms your children.

But additionally, you're suggesting that because there are lots of other people around, your responsibilities are waived, and the herd will look after your children.

Even as a parent, I have little time for those who won't take responsibility for their own children.

> If you have kids try it and compare with other vacation trips.

.... Let my child run free in 16 stories with 6000 random strangers?

> And if you don't, parenting is that kind of experience you must live it yourself in order to fully understand

Clearly some don't really learn from the experience.

We’ve been on two of these mega-ship cruises in the last couple of years and another one next week.

My kids love the kids’ clubs, which are lively and seem to be well run. The younger one was excited to go every morning and always came back happy. She’s a normal, friendly, smart kid. My teen boy had more freedom and used the teen club as a central meeting point, where he also made friends easily.

Unlike at a resort or camp, where kids come and go and cliques form, these kids are mostly strangers on day one and it’s only for a week—they are literally in the same boat. This seems to produce less pressure and more fun.

As for the adults, yes, there’s expensive, banal, crowded “activities” aplenty. There’s also (as others have mentioned) our Kindles, a quiet balcony with a nice view, OK food if you choose wisely, and transport to some interesting destinations.

Ship-sponsored excursions are bus tour hell. Pro tip: Don’t do those. Organize your own day out. There’s this thing called the Internet, and it’s loaded with info. I bet it catches on!

We had an amazing private expert-guided back-alley tour of Pompeii for half the price of the cruise line chain gang slog. My son and I found an ancient/modern graffiti tour of Athens, zero tourists. Etc.

Even at a completely fake port like Costa Maya, you can get a small group bus trip to Chacchoben and it’s just as amazing as if you virtue-hitchhiked there.

Bottom line, if you have kids, and if you use it as a base, and if you can deal with a few annoying crowd moments, a cruise can be fairly relaxing.

Happens sometimes that they drown in the pool though.

My wife and I went on cruises every year for more than 10 years starting mid-90's. At the time, it was more relaxing (with less to do) and gave the opportunity to disconnect. We liked to dress up for dinner and sit with the same (random) people for the entire time of the cruise. Internet was as outrageous of a cost as a phone call at the time so where I worked doing software engineering, I told them to call me anytime! Perfect, the never did... and as a plus we got to visit many ports of call to see what we would like to go back to for longer (taste of different places to decide if we would mesh for a whole week there). Shopping was fine if you take the time to bargain and know your market prices before you go. Tourist traps are still traps at land or at sea... keep your guard up on vacation either way.

Our last cruise was not the same. Lots of fun stuff to do (which we can't complain about trying a few with super long waits). Wifi everywhere (who needs phone calls) to keep in touch with work ALL the time. Random people every meal time at dinner who never dress up (unless you include polo shirts and shorts as dressed up). Basically, for us it did lose appeal to try it. So, for some this is exactly what they want, but lost its luster and special experience.

Advice - pick a cruse line that matches your preferences (kids, no-kids, party, no-party, luxury, casual, etc) and you probably would have a good time.

What line did you cruise with in dressier days gone?

I'm younger, but that type of cruise is the only that really appeals to me.

Sadly, I've heard passenger standards have decreased as ships try to maximize size for economies of scale.

I’ve heard that the classiest cruises are the ones with the highest staff to customer ratios. An approximation, at least.

Obviously they’re going to also be more expensive. https://www.cruisewatch.com/top-10/ships-passenger-crew-rati...

> Random people every meal time at dinner who never dress up (..)

Things changed. According to this article[^1]; fun onboard P&O's Britannia is... special.

[^1]: https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2019/jul/27/passenger-in...

From the article: "...things kicked off when another passenger appeared dressed as a clown. This upset one of their party because they’d specifically booked a cruise with no fancy dress."

For some reason classifying a clown costume as "fancy dress" tickles me.

It’s a British turn of phrase meaning any kind of party costume, not even necessarily anything “fancy”.

    It followed an afternoon of ‘patriotic’ partying on deck

What is „patriotic partying“?

If you want to read a longer version of this excellent rant, I suggest the following article about a cruise-tourists-only enclave in Haiti: https://www.csmonitor.com/2006/0125/p01s02-woam.html

> Can anyone explain to me the appeal of cruises?

Got one word for you: Kindle.

IOW: yeah, I don't get the appeal either. But I didn't need to. Smile and not in front of the family. Then go in a corner with a kindle.

Completely agree with you on the massive ocean ships, but look into river cruises.

I had a few days on the Nile on a small ship and it was the highlight of the trip. I definitely got the appeal of sitting on the top deck, reading, seeing the country go by, going through locks, waving to other ships, etc. Completely different experience to the bus we took upriver.

Ever since I've wanted to do a nicer version of that in Europe. These are advertised in luxury/design-type magazines and can be quite upscale. Or something like a bike trip where your canal boat hotel room follows you along the route.

Organized fun is the best fun. No need to think about what to do next. Also, on a cruise, most stuff is included in the purchase price, so the pressure to spend extra money is actually quite low.

> Meanwhile, you're surrounded by people from the same place as you, who, at least for me, you might be trying to be get away from.

This is probably your problem right there. Why are you trying to get away from your neighbors? Do they not like you? Are you unlikable?

I guess I want a holiday where I immerse myself in a new place (not that that is easy these days). Hearing and seeing people from my country reminds me I'm not immersed.

You can’t “immerse yourself in a new place” as a tourist. If you’re not working somewhere, dealing with the housing market there, have family there—you know nothing about the place and the experience of the people. You’re just getting a slightly different superficial tourist experience.

I was not on cruise ship but I had opportunity to be on huge crane ship from work. I would go for a cruise just to experience calmness of the sea and looking into distance to get overwhelmed by amount of water around. Even though I live all my life close to the shore and going to the beach often, it was still totally different to be in the middle of it than just looking at it from shore. Feeling was like I would be on different planet or something.

You might relate to David Foster Wallace's assessment: A Supposedly Fun Thing I'll Never Do Again.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Supposedly_Fun_Thing_I%27ll_...

If David Foster Wallace was so wise, how come he killed himself? :(

I miss his writings.

Wisdom is not anticorrelated with profound depression, unfortunately.

Then there’s Michael Ian Black’s counterpoint: https://www.nytimes.com/2018/07/03/travel/cruises-are-awesom...

There's a lot of general anxiety that comes with vacations and travel, more-so as you get older and there are kids in the mix. My wife and I like to go to the same area for holiday each summer simply because its sunny, lively, relaxing and familiar. Sure we'd still love to visit places like germany, petra, etc, but not with toddlers in tow.

Never been on a cruise, but I find longer ferry and train rides very relaxing. You are on your way but don't have to do anything. You have food and drinks available but don't have to think about which restaurant you want to go to. It's the carefree experience without the worry that you're wasting time that's appealing I guess.

My wife and I just finished a one-week cruise from Vancouver up the inside passage to Alaska. The ship carried about 1400 passengers and 600 crew. We wanted to see glaciers; our ship was able to go inside Glacier Bay National Park for closeup views of a tidewater glacier and lots of different wildlife: mountain goats, grizzly bears, seals, otters, sea lions, humpback whales. And at Juneau we went up to see Mendenhall Glacier.

At other ports we hiked around (not taking any cruise line-arranged excursions) and had quite a nice time. There were more people in the gym than in the casino. Our food was included in the cruise and we did not buy any drink packages. We didn't buy an internet package either and only missed it when we wanted to confirm our return flight (which we did on arrival back in Vancouver). We met people from different states and countries and enjoyed our conversations during meals. We took the stairs up and down and took walks around deck. There were lots of planned activities, but also plenty of time and quiet places on board to get away from crowds.

But you're right about the impacts of cruise ships on the port towns, especially the smaller ones. Ketchikan, which could berth up to four ships, expected over 50,000 visitors the week we were there. Skagway's population is 1,000 in the winter and 3,000 in the summer, with an influx of workers for the tourist trade. The ships burn a lot of oil to cruise; our ship got about 4 miles per ton. Carnival has been fined $20 million this year after violating terms of a previous judgment that included a $40 million penalty, and they're not the only offender.

This was our first cruise and we wondered beforehand whether we'd like it. We enjoyed the resort experience and being able to visit a number of interesting places. I liked not having to drive, because our ship was a moving resort. At the captain's toast, while we had some bubbly, he had ginger ale, because as he said, he was "our designated driver". We enjoyed the views, the food, the conversations, the side trips, and the relaxed pace. If you are clear on your personal values and goals and if you do your own research before traveling, you can likely find one that would appeal to you.

I took a cruise of the Mediterranean with family and loved every bit of it. Most of the time, the ship was just a magical hotel room you returned to after a long day exploring and woke up in another amazing city.

We planned most excursions ourselves with local companies and they were all excellent experiences.

I don't worry about overpaying while shopping on vacation because I don't go on vacation to shop.

Also, and this doesn't sound like much until you experience it, getting on and off the boat (and thus into and out of different countries) is really simple. You walk off. You walk on. It's the easiest customs experience I've had.

I just got back from my first cruise, which I was excited for but had no real idea of what to expect or whether I'd enjoy it. For context, I suffer from pretty extreme anxiety and seriously dislike crowds of people. I also have a 19-month-old, who came with us on the cruise. Here are my thoughts:

I cruised on the Disney Dream, one of their newest ships. Everywhere you looked, there was some awesome detail that you'd likely miss if you weren't paying attention. From the hidden Mickeys in the tiles of the bathrooms, to the way they laid out their private island (which only ever has one ship docked at a time) so as to minimize congestion.

There were only two times I felt it was crowded: the breakfast buffet and debarkation. The former could've been avoided by more clever design of the area, the latter could've been avoided by staggering the debarkation times rather than adding pressure to get you off the ship so that they could turn it around for the next cruise (which embarked that afternoon!)

I never felt pressured to go do anything. If I didn't want to go to dinner, I could just order room service, which was quick, 24 hours, and completely included in the ticket price. If I didn't really want to be off the boat, I could get back on at any time -- or just not get off at all. There were so many things that we could do if we wanted to, but didn't have to; I appreciated that.

Being disconnected from the interwebs for a week was amazing. I know I could get that from camping or somesuch, but there's something about being completely disconnected from the outside world but still having the luxuries of 2019 that speaks to me and my laziness.

The nursery was great. My daughter had never been in daycare or anything of the sort, so we were nervous about it, but she absolutely loved it. It was convenient and let my wife and I go have a nice date night onboard, kid-free.

Everyone bent over backwards to help in any way they could, and any request we had was taken seriously. Whether it was getting my daughter a hot dog each night at dinner (which wasn't on the menu, but they accomodated just fine -- since she wouldn't eat anything else), having our drinks ready for us as soon as we arrived, getting us ear plugs, or anything else that may have come up.

There were a million other little things that I (and my family) enjoyed about this, but suffice it to say, this will be at least an annual thing for us now; my wife and I are even talking about doing one cruise with the kid and one without, each year, just because we enjoyed it so much.

The only cruise I've been on was the Disney Magic in Alaska. It was a lot of fun for me and my family too.

From what I've been told, one of the nicer things about the Disney cruises is they don't nickle and dime you as much as other cruises tend to. Once you're on the ship, just about all your expenses have been paid for (excepting alcoholic drinks). When we arrived at these little Alaskan towns, of course we're paying tourist prices, but we're there to do tourist things. If we wanted, we could have saved money by staying on the ship.

I agree about how liberating it was to be disconnected from the internet. I think you could do away with the boat and build a resort around the notion of disconnecting from the internet and news media for a week.

I used to think this way in my '20s, but started to see the appeal in my late '30s. It can be hard to arrange a trip between two working professionals, what with work deadlines, etc. It would have been nice to just get away for a week with no great preparation or min/maxing required. Just throw money at the problem. That said ... I've never been on a cruise.

Thanks everyone for their replies! It looks like there is a lot to offer that I didn't consider. It seems clear that you must choose carefully though... and the environmental impact still makes me balk.

Your criticism basically nailed it and is why I hate cruises. The organised fun isn't just your destinations but your daily activities to an extent as well, have to be up by 9AM to get breakfast, earlier if you want to depart the ship, pools close as soon as the sun goes down, adults only bar closes as soon as the sun goes down, only one bar open past 10PM so you basically end up there with everyone else. If it sounds like I'm focusing on the bar it's because there's little else to do. On day trips you're right about being surrounding by locals, my nephew nearly caused a fight between rival groups on a remote PNG island over a $5 wooden trinket. You're generally visiting ports too, which tend not to be the nicest destination and the golden beaches from the brochure will be an additional 2 hour, using up 4 of your 8 hour stop, assuming you're in the first group off.

The food and drink prices are quite reasonable in a package (or even cash), it's the casino and shops where they try and get you. Personally when I'm on holidays is when I like to cook anyway because I've got the time, going through a tropical market with fresh produce when you don't have a kitchen is just teasing.

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