There's a lot going on here. So, I don't exist, and yet an effort to reach the state of non-existence needs to be made (sounds like some faith/belief is required here to even begin). And, thoughts are without a self, which follows from the non-self notion. That all makes sense within this philosophy, but what about free will?
It sounds like the state of non-self would be the essence of freedom, and therefore, choice, and not a fixed universe in which everything is preordained.
Two warnings about Metzinger, though: (1) a mood leaks through his writing, a sort of nihilistic determinism that his rigorous philosophy relentlessly evokes, but which his assertions do not imply; and (2) it is quite difficult reading, like a new Kant, lucid yet dense, requiring of a layman to assiduously infer and integrate the language of cognitive science.
You have spent billions of years not existing, you will spend billions of years not existing, yet you also want to achieve this state of not existing within your comparatively short actual lifetime?
What a waste.
“You’re driving down the road, and another driver is doing something crazy, swerving about and you almost have an accident, and you think what an asshole!
Having the thought that the other driver is an asshole is the first obscuration that prevents omniscience. Believing this thought to be true is the second obscuration (paraphrased) that cements the prevention of omniscience.”
It’s not that “you” don’t exist. It’s that the conditioned and conventionally accepted ways that we think we exist (and by extension the ways that we project that others exist) are ultimately false and don’t correspond to reality.
You know what else prevents omniscience? The second law of thermodynamics. So what?
> It’s not that “you” don’t exist. It’s that the conditioned and conventionally accepted ways that we think we exist (and by extension the ways that we project that others exist) are ultimately false and don’t correspond to reality.
Again, so what? Even the simplest biochemical processes inside my body are so complex and astounding, I have no hope of ever truly understanding even a tiny part of them. I have no issue with this. I have no issue with not truly knowing "reality", or with the prospect that understanding it is literally impossible.
From a cosmological standpoint, of course one can argue that nobody has a free will and that nobody is ultimately responsible for anything.
For practical purposes, this is a pretty useless insight. In practical terms, the people that cut you off in traffic for no good reason are what we humans call "assholes" (or similar). We sanction this behavior so that we can work better as a society. There's a purpose for you to get upset about such behavior. It is directly connected to your instinct for survival, your will to live.
Yes, sometimes your will to live makes you suffer. That doesn't mean killing off that will is "enlightened", or that the people who "tune out" are to be revered for it. You're rebranding a thinly veiled "sour grapes attitude" into a virtue.
> You treat people completely differently, you become kinder, more courteous, less hateful, and more patient, at larger scale animosity and hostility between peoples decreases to zero and world / universal peace is achieved.
This is a foolish belief. If there is no such thing as an "asshole", there is no such thing as "murderer". Remember, nobody is responsible for anything. It's all just part of the cosmic ballet! That's how Zen Buddhism helped the Japanese commit all those atrocities:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zen_at_War
Remember, not everyone actually buys into this philosophy, by their nature. Your brand of philosophy is one of weakness, of little resistance. It doesn't have the "tools" for survival on its own and it's easily exploited.
The comment I offered was an illustration that I found helpful in clarifying the Buddhist concept of non-self.
In my book omniscience need not be some kind of superpower, even a sincere effort to comprehend and understand clearly, without heavy overlays, is on track. Learning to pierce those overlays with patience has never led to disappointment.
Unless perhaps you were thinking I wrote omnipotence?
As for the traffic examples, having spent a while in countries where nobody really bothers to sanction other motorists, motorcyclists, pedestrians, push carts, cows, etc, strangely it works out okay. It’s almost like the drivers stopping to blow their horn and yell “asshole” create exponentially more problems further back up the web of traffic, than had they refrained from doing that.
It doesn't. Drawn to its logical conclusion, your philosophy can't prove anything. When challenged, you relegate to semantic games, diluting your terms and statements to the point where they can mean anything and nothing. You accuse me of being judgemental instead of actually defending your philosophy.
Well, so what if I'm being judgemental? When it comes to philosophy, judgement is in order.
> In my book omniscience need not be some kind of superpower, even a sincere effort to comprehend and understand clearly, without heavy overlays, is on track. Learning to pierce those overlays with patience has never disappointed.
Omniscience not only is a superpower, it is a godlike superpower. It means "to know everything". Everything! Of course, if in "your book" omniscience means something else entirely, you shouldn't use that word without simultaneously giving your idiosyncratic definition. Otherwise, you're playing that semantic game where you can retreat from any position by changing the meaning of words after-the-fact. It's the cheapest trick in the book.
> Unless perhaps you were thinking I meant omnipotence.
No. To "know everything" is distinct from being able to "do anything".
I just spent a fair amount of time trying to unpack the Buddhist concept of non-self, and offered up something that I found to be a novel way of elucidating the significance and usefulness of non-self, and shone a light, for me at least, on the habits of mind which obscure the understanding.
In the context of the quote, omniscience is a valid term. In a practical context, a literal adherence is not necessary to derive a meaningful understanding and experience.
For example, a child may say “I’m no good at maths”. Yet you spend some time helping them patiently, and in time they gain some confidence, maybe even some mastery, and that particular once firmly-held notion is proven to be false, an obscuration. The first level being the thought “I’m no good at maths” and the second level being the firmly-held belief that it’s an immutable fact.
Beyond all this, the identity you ascribe to me (“kook”, “my philosophy”) is all your creation.
I appreciate now that you don’t like Buddhism. That doesn’t automatically mean that I came here to argue with you about that.
Of course not, you're a mindful person!
> I wasn’t presenting a philosophy.
You made statements of philosophical relevance, which were answered in kind.
> In the context of the quote, omniscience is a valid term.
Sure, in the context of psychobabble, any word can mean anything you want. If you asked Deepak Chopra about quantum mechanics, you would get a "wealth" of meaningless drivel that may nevertheless sound highly profound to the uninitiated.
> For example, a child may say “I’m no good at maths”. Yet you spend some time helping them patiently, and in time they gain some confidence, maybe even some mastery, and that particular once firmly-held notion is proven to be false, an obscuration.
A child that says they're "no good at math" is probably telling the truth. Let's suppose the child really wasn't good at math. They haven't had any practice, why should they be good at math? After all this practice, they may become good at math, but the child wasn't good at maths before. Their earlier self-assessment hasn't been proven false. It was true at the time and forever will have been true.
> The first level being the thought “I’m no good at maths” and the second level being the firmly-held belief that it’s an immutable fact.
The statement "I'm no good at maths" doesn't actually imply such a "firmly-held belief". A statement like "I'm no good at math and I never will be no matter what I do" would. Perhaps a child might make such a statement. They're not really in the position to know, but the possibility exists that it is a more or less immutable fact. Dyscalculia is a thing, you know.
See, if I didn't make this distinction, you might get away with having said something that sounds profound. It really isn't!
> Beyond all this, the identity you ascribe to me (“kook”, “my philosophy”) is all your creation.
I never called you a kook and I don't think you're kook. I think you're an ordinary person that, like many people, found some appeal in mindfulness. I'm not saying that mindfulness doesn't work or that subjectively it doesn't have benefits that outweigh the drawbacks.
However, the foundational teachings behind it are ultimately meaningless. They sound profound, but if you nail them down and try to get them to actually say something with a concrete meaning, they tend to fall apart. They are left intentionally vague to let your preconceived notions fill in the gaps. It's very persuasive.
In any event, you can't entirely divorce the foundation from the practice. That's the point of the article.
> I appreciate now that you don’t like Buddhism.
It's not that I don't like it. I'd like to like it! Nevertheless, I find it misguided. It deserves scrutiny like any belief system.
> That doesn’t automatically mean that I came here to argue with you about that.
I don't expect you to. Nevertheless, I appeal to maintain your critical thinking. Don't do too much non-thinking. You can do that when you're dead.
Another commenter (one of the first) made the point that “mindfulness” is an inaccurate translation of the Pali “sati”, which in the original context doesn’t mean much more than “remembering to be aware of the objects that your mind is attending to” - those objects being specific and often elaborate mental and emotional faculties. Sati is no system in itself.
Anyway, I only ever set out here to share a single illustrative example of “anatta” or non-self.
Have fun there.
Don't worry, I'm rarely disappointed. I try to keep my expectations low. In any event, your presumed identity (or lack thereof) is not really important to what I am saying.
> ... but like you, I also take issue with “McMindfulness”.
I don't necessarily have an issue with "mindfulness", that's just a technique of meditation as far as I'm concerned. Like other techniques of meditation, it clearly does something. I do think it can be beneficial, in the same way that hallucinogenic drugs can be beneficial.
Biochemically, these are similar in many ways. Yet, few people would dare claim that dropping acid can actually give you a deeper understanding about the nature of the universe. It sure can feel that way though.
> Another commenter (one of the first) made the point that “mindfulness” is an inaccurate translation of the Pali “sati”, which in the original context doesn’t mean much more than “remembering to be aware of the objects that your mind is attending to” - those objects being specific and often elaborate mental and emotional faculties. Sati is no system in itself.
See, I much rather have an issue with these foundational teachings. That stuff is woo-woo. That's the stuff you brought up.
What if one of your family members accidentally cut you off on the road, is your Aunt Bea now an "asshole", seeking to hurt you or otherwise recklessly endanger your life, or did she make an unfortunate mistake? What if she feels really bad about it? Do you still decide she's an "asshole"?
It is hate when you write someone off like that, and being angry at someone is not the same as hating them. You seem to have missed the larger point that a lot of strife around the world is caused by people who decide to hate others. This hatred arises from an emotional place and is the cause of a large majortiy of human conflict. Being in control of unbridled hatred for anyone that causes you an unpleasant emotion at some point is not a weakness, it's a strength. Being able to not write off someone who cut you off on the road is a very novice practice case in developing the same skill one would use when they decide not to hate an ethnic minority moving into their country, and this is a skill worth having.
It is taught to children in preschool, in fact, in the form of, don't go beating on that kid who took your toy, go and talk to them instead. This isn't religiosity or mysticism or anything else, it's simply taking the practice of being a considerate person into more of a real lifestyle.
Also this has nothing to do with buddhists and whether or not they've managed to be non-hateful people or not. You can pretty easily argue that humans are essentially hate-filled and that it's impossible to eradicate. It is our nature after all. But living a life drowned in hate is not how everyone chooses to live.