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Comment by thomersch_ | Hacker News Reader

For me it's because they do damage their workers' rights and their fans are so insufferable: The denial that they have quality issues, the repeated lies ("we are going to build a factory in weeks", while everyone knows that it will take years), the massive overvaluation. It's either you are on team Tesla and celebrating every of Elon's brainfarts or you are "big oil" that is trying to destroy them: Just look what happens when countries try to introduce standardised charing cables.

I just wish they would be frank about what they can and cannot do.

EDIT: And by the way about that pathetic "climate change" argument. Right, they are now selling Fiat their CO2 certificates thus enabling them to do wonderful green washing.

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The rest of your arguments are valid, but the CO2 credit system is working as intended there. That's why it's called a credit. That's a lot of money that gets to be directly invested into getting electric cars in the hands of more people, which is what will actually reduce emissions in the long run.

Fiat's emissions already happened; they can't turn back time. Selling the credits to them will result in a net decrease in emissions (assuming they don't spend all the money on flamethrowers or something). If they didn't sell the credits, Fiat still put out exactly the same amount of emissions, and would be likely to do so in the future even with the fines.

If you've helped accelerate climate change, you're supposed to buy credits to offset the damage you've caused. If you've helped mitigate climate change, you're supposed to sell the credits, because the credits are there in the first place to incentivize mitigating climate change. This system obviously isn't sufficient to halt climate change all by itself, and maybe there are some other reasons it's a bad system, but it seems like the credit system is working exactly as it was supposed to. At the very least, I don't see what Tesla's doing wrong when it comes to that particular area.

To be honest it really disturbs why people hate Tesla so much. Citing your reason for them being over-optimistic or over-promising, how else do people change the world? I don't mean this message as an attack but something to think about. These guys are working on something No one has EVER done in the history of mankind and we require them to stick to timetables and if they don't the punishment is we wish them failure and celebrate it? If Tesla is to succeed all our lives will be better for it, why are their mistakes and obstacles celebrated? Why do we care if the company is overvalued? This is the same sentiment towards Apple when the iPhone first came out till it no longer could be ignored. Tesla is far from a perfect company, but their mission is true and the real question we should be asking ourselves rather than if we like Elon, or if the company is overvalued or if they over promise and under deliver. the real question is, Is this company really trying to fulfill its mission statement, If yes, would we want such a mission to succeed?

All that is great. I just wish they could do it without lying through their teeth. Elon is still claiming with a straight face that fully autonomous, L5 Teslas are coming next year. This is a lie. Everyone knows it is a lie. Why is this necessary? Couldn't he change the world without engaging in that sort of behavior?

Facebook’s active user growth is also a stark and plain lie; if Tesla succeeds, the world will improve. If Facebook succeeds, the world gets a lot worse.

It’s misplaced ire.

> if Tesla succeeds, the world will improve

It doesn't matter if Tesla succeeds or fails. All car companies now have to meet fleet emissions targets and the way they're going to do it is by building electric cars, either battery electric or fuel cell or both.

Elon blatantly lies through his teeth on many occasions.

Somewhere around 2013, he claimed Tesla would launch a "fully autonomous, L5" in 2 years, but it would take another 3 years of regulatory approval. Clearly a gross misrepresentation of facts.

Lying is perhaps the wrong word here. Sharing self-delusion is probably a more accurate way of describing it. He genuinely believes many of his own exaggerations. But to be fair without a big dose of self delusion no one would be crazy enough to try these things in the first place.

I take his claims with a massive pinch of salt, while also appreciating that trait is somewhat necessary to solve the problems he's trying to solve.

> He genuinely believes many of his own exaggerations.

Either a) he is lying, or b) the CEO of multiple companies worth a combined ~$100b is delusional to the point of being unable to recognize basic facts. Pick your poison.

He is CEO of those companies exactly because of his above average ability to make those delusions reality, no matter how impossible people considered e.g. landing rocket stages. I'd prefer him to project more of a visionary image with less harmful/psychotic aspects, but you can only get humans as a complete package and I'd have a hard time coming up with people to replace him.

"These guys are working on something No one has EVER done in the history of mankind" - erm people were making electric cars before ICE ones!

So, you made me realise I'd been ambiguous here, sorry.

I'll have to name companies to explain: Uber have undermined workers' rights in a systematic way, through the development of their concept of contract employees and the gig economy.

I have heard plenty of stories about SpaceX (not Tesla, but I'll assume similar stories exist) not treating their employees well. So yes, they've hurt workers rights too, so I accept your point. It's different kind of issue though, because it's particular to one company and not systemic, which is what I originally meant to say.

Disagree strongly about the climate change/greenwashing argument. I believe Tesla is a net positive in tackling climate change, which is what matters.

>they are now selling Fiat their CO2 certificates thus enabling them to do wonderful green washing.

SO they should not use the cash that the government made accessible to them (because Fiat refuse to manufacture electric vehicles) and thus, not increase their EV production capacity?

This makes no sense. That's up to regulators to prevent Fiat from selling polluting cars, not to Tesla to refuse financial help that allow them to accelerate their growth.

>"we are going to build a factory in weeks"

Where did you read that? What is your source?

Tesla is singularly responsible for the destruction of workers rights? OK. If you want real worker rights bugbears, look at Uber and Lyft.

Their quality issues may exist, but they aren't that bad. They're not. Every person you talk to has lemon stories about every car in existence.

Tesla does not have a monopoly on irrational exuberance in what a company will accomplish. You are commenting on ground zero of internet startups. Tesla actually built cars.

CO2 credit sales are part of a market that actually forces companies to pay for CO2. There is nothing bad about that.

Massive overvaluation: Again, you are commenting on ground zero of wannabe unicorn internet startups. Uber's app can be replicated by a team of 10 in a month. Tesla has a competitive advantage in battery tech, vertical integration, and design, and could displace Toyota in a couple decades.

Fans are insufferable: ok, true.

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