The rise of the indelibly-illustrated everyman
standpointmag.co.uk
standpointmag.co.uk
I was wondering when we'd get to the part where the author explains why tattooing is bad. Turns out there's no reason against tattooing except cultural premises as far as the article is concerned. Also people who get tattoos have a personality problem according to the author.
If you want to feel smug about not having a tattoo this piece provides!
That author is just not aware of his heritage.
Do we know how they painted themselves back then?
Braveheart was (loosely) based on real events.
Tattoos are bad because: 1. Needles 2. Infection 3. It doesn't just "wipe off". 4. Needles
Well, fuck you too, friend!
We've found ink on the bodies of priests, shamans, warriors and kings going back as far as there have been humans. Both sexes. Nearly any culture you'd care to name.
Why the visceral hate?
and more here - https://www.telegraph.co.uk/comment/columnists/nigelfarndale...
Edward VII was inked up, with his mother's approval. If it's good enough for the son of Victoria, it should be fine, even for the prudes.
However, the author -- Theodore Dalrymple (not his real name) -- is a particularly interesting character.
He is almost exclusively pessimistic about humanity, with a particular dislike of anyone less fortunate than himself. He seems to believe that everyone ends up in life where they deserve, taking to an extreme the idea of personal responsibility, and draws on his experience as a prison doctor to try to excuse his writing career of finding ever new ways to look down on others.
This is posed as a bad thing, but there are lots of people on this site who tell themselves this very thing.
Justice is inherently malleable and subjective. It's a thing we humans (as a society) decide to do to one another. As far as I can tell, it tends to lag the scales we're operating at.
As for defining what is just - this is obviously a huge subject studied by philosophers - but I'm assuming that, if we had these all-knowing judges, they could just assess (by scanning thoughts of people) how hard everybody is trying to do good to others. And this way, we would be living in a just world. To repeat my question - would that be so bad?
> Regarding his pseudonym "Theodore Dalrymple", he wrote that he "chose a name that sounded suitably dyspeptic, that of a gouty old man looking out of the window of his London club, port in hand, lamenting the degenerating state of the world"
> Why the visceral hate?
Pot, kettle.
My point is that it has never been the case that “tattoos are just for scum”, and that the author of this piece is woefully and intentionally unaware of history and culture, even inside the upper crust of his own british milieu.
1. Not liking something
and
2. Going out of your way to write a long article detailing all the shortcomings of those that partake in the thing you don't like.
Of course you have the right to dislike tattoos, but that doesn't give anyone the right to tell someone they suck for something they chose because they like it.
For those able to put words in order that article would take 15 minutes to write and 5 to proof read.
>Of course you have the right to dislike tattoos, but that doesn't give anyone the right to tell someone they suck for something they chose because they like it.
What would you do if the author tattooed that piece on themselves? You now can't tell them they are wrong for hating people with tattoos because it's a tattoo.
At the end of the day, keep your opinions about what other people do to/for themselves to yourself ... it's as simple as that. And when you choose to exercise your right to share that unrequested opinion, don't be alarmed when you get a middle finger in your face.
>> It seems obvious to me that if a person feels he has to tattoo himself in order to “express” his difference from others, he must have some difficulty in individuating himself, perhaps indicative (when this difficulty is on a mass scale, as it clearly is) of an individualistic society without individuals.
Young people are almost always the ones who get tattoos. I think because they want to define themselves. One problem is that it is a pretty superficial way to do it. I never thought someone was thoughtful, artistic, caring.. etc. because of their tattoo. The other problem is that you often outgrow how you see yourself as a teen. There is something to be said for being comfortable in your own skin.
But hey-- if you have a tattoo I have no problem with that.
Wait until all the old people have tattoos, young people won't tattoo.
My father told me that old guys wore one earpiece when he was little (Milan area, Italy). It took 100 years to become acceptable again. Women had two and still have.
I am in my 30s now and don’t regret them but would never get a public facing one again. Private/easy to cover ones I still consider though, modern humans rarely recieve scars or injuries to mark our life experiences, but we still suffer and go through transformative events. I do like tattoos as reminders of these times, even if the content of the tattoo is unrelated to the event.
You literally said there were 2 problems, even using the word problem, with having tattoos in your previous paragraph. It's ok to have an opinion, you don't have to add in this shit to try and make people feel better or to make you seem worldly, open, or woke.
* - The one thing I'd consider is "Vincit qui patitur" across my back over my spine - it translates as "he conquers who endures" and given my spine is trying to kill me it seems apropos.
It took until I was 45 to decide on something I wanted to keep on my body forever.
>They think that by having themselves tattooed they are shocking the bourgeoisie à la Baudelaire; and in so far as their parents don’t like it, and are in effect silencing them by a fait accompli of which it is useless for them to complain, they are exercising power over them.
>It seems obvious to me that if a person feels he has to tattoo himself in order to “express” his difference from others, he must have some difficulty in individuating himself, perhaps indicative (when this difficulty is on a mass scale, as it clearly is) of an individualistic society without individuals.
But in large part people get tattoos because they like them, nothing much more than that. It's just a skin mod, not a big deal, not worth wringing hands over.
It sure is nice that people don't usually get beaten up anymore for having weird hair or modifications.
Trends with little to no mainstream opposition are fascinating. I'm thinking of things like smoking, disco, the real estate bubble, the dot com bubble, and hairbands. Suddenly, everywhere you look it's been normalized. Given enough time, they're all repudiated - strongly and viscerally.
I wonder if the tattoo will join their ranks.
As someone who is inked, I not only found this hilarious, but interesting and well-written, and the author actually has experience with prison tattoos, which makes him more expert than 99% of us, easily.
Also, this may shock you, but I'm going to go out on a limb and agree with the author that your tattoo is neither original nor cool, so if that's what you find offensive then you've totally missed the point!
So at the end when the author smugly predicts the tattooed masses how it will look bad with age, should I chuckle at the commonplace that people look worse with age?
There was just nothing in there for me.
I'm genuinely interested in what you mean by this. Like, you think that it's false, or you take umbrage to it being brought up?
>> "There was just nothing in there for me"
I'm guessing this is emphasis on the above point.
>> "should I chuckle at the commonplace that people look worse with age?"
No, and if you think he's making a trivially true comment then you're missing a subtler point. Anyone with a nice tattoo will lament the fact that it will fade, it will lose crisp lines, and it will look bad over time.
That's why for nice pieces touchups are necessary, but you have a limited number of those.
Neither. I'm just not interested in unsubstantiated personal opinions. So the author doesn't like tattoos but decided to write an article anyway? Why? That people are generally shallow is an observation that can be made about a number of topics and I don't see what is gained when singling out tattooed people. Subcultures do tend to look ridiculous to the outsider.
The fact that people get tattoos to look nice in the eyes of other people who appreciate it was not discussed seriously in what feels like willful ignorance on part of the author. Or in the words of a tattooed friend: "People with a stick up their ass do tend to leave you alone once you've got your face done."
> Anyone with a nice tattoo will lament the fact that it will fade, it will lose crisp lines, and it will look bad over time.
That's not a novel observation for me. What's subtle or funny about it? "Look at these people. They think they have a nice tattoo but watch them in twenty years!" (I know it's not funny anymore once it's bluntly stated anyway, but I'm having trouble understanding how the original can be considered funny.)
I have a tattoo but I acknowledge I'm not an expert. I did take a class on the psychological and social constructs behind body modifications and clothing, but most people with strong opinions on a subject believe their factual knowledge is "above average," including myself. In return, I'd like you to consider the limits of your knowledge on the topic as well.
Okay, so continuing...
>> Neither. I'm just not interested in unsubstantiated personal opinions. So the author doesn't like tattoos but decided to write an article anyway?
I'm just going to restate the first sentence of the essay here: "When I started as a prison doctor in 1990, I was both fascinated and horrified by the tattoos inscribed on the skins of the prisoners." I'd say he's more than qualified to write an op-ed on this topic. This is also not a scientific topic, so if you're looking for facts, then yes it's not the right article.
On the other hand, I think you've pointed out your chief objection clearly: People should not write about topics they don't have nice things to say about. I think this is the implicit position people take, and I appreciate you being explicit about it. As a matter of principle, I don't just disagree, but disagree very strongly with this statement.
>> That's not a novel observation for me. What's subtle or funny about it?
Ask anyone with tattoos, and while everyone "knows" that tattoos fade, it's much different when it's your tattoo. Tattoos are consistently listed at the top of the list of regrets young people make, that's a fact. I don't think it's obvious to a lot of them how it's going to look later, even really nice, expensive pieces. And that's what he's noting there. It's not just aging, it's fading and bleeding of colors. Ink on skin does not age the same way as on other media, and I seriously doubt anyone without a piece or working with clients can actually can predict what the tattoo will look like ten to twenty years later.
I don't think I understand much about tattooing at all.
> I'd say he's more than qualified to write an op-ed on this topic.
Why are we dwelling on that? I assumed we are in agreement about it.
> This is also not a scientific topic, so if you're looking for facts, then yes it's not the right article.
It could have been. It started out interesting enough. I'm deploring the wasted opportunity.
> On the other hand, I think you've pointed out your chief objection clearly: People should not write about topics they don't have nice things to say about. I think this is the implicit position people take, and I appreciate you being explicit about it.
Wait. Please rein in your presumptions. I asked why and nothing more. Had the author argued their position then that could have been interesting. Sadly the article was just a collection of general observations mixed with the distaste of the author. There wasn't much to object to except for the unsubstantiated opinions sprinkled about.
I don't even disagree much with the author!
> I don't think it's obvious to a lot of them how it's going to look later, even really nice, expensive pieces. And that's what he's noting there.
In a useless way: "for there is only one thing more pitiful than a tattoo on young skin, and that is a tattoo on old skin."
Such was the depth of the article!
>> Wait. Please rein in your presumptions. I asked why and nothing more.
Unless your writing tends to be very tangential, or you are only using conjunctions for stylistic purposes, it's hard for me to read this and not take the position that you are asking for some kind of justification.
Specifically: "You do Z, but you do X, why?" In my very limited world, this construct implies there is a disconnect (or more rather, some connection that needs clarification) between the two. The implication is that Z and X held together create a tension in your world that needs resolution.
Perhaps that can be considered presumptuous, but if that is considered presumption then I don't think I'll be able to correctly interpret your position without a lot more syntactic clarification.
No harm done, and I'm sure we find much more agreement elsewhere. Besides, this is hardly the best thing I've read all year; I just found it funny and somewhat interesting, and I thought I found some negative pattern in the comments that would stifle otherwise interesting conversation. But perhaps the poster and I just have poor taste of cheeky humor and this doesn't belong here! That's possible too. Cheers.
The article failed me. I wanted to know what the author's reasons are. But I was left hanging with only witty comments for the rest of the article. It turned out I was not justified in reading the whole. I feel I was tricked into reading dross.
The author has no problem making general statements about the motivation of the tattooed but then finds the idea that there is a community or shared way of thinking that binds them inconceivable.
The amount of time and effort people put in to not understanding but still disliking things that don't effect them has always and continues to blow my mind...
this
It's easier if you categorize it a little bit. I put this type of rhetoric/conversation under "commiseration". Humans tend to get social validation and dopamine hits when their views and opinions are validated. It's much easier to find common ground with people on things you dislike. I really suggest people examine their relationships with the friends and people they keep around them and try to inventory how many of those relationships are based on commiseration, talking shit about people or things. I then suggest you stop spending social energy with those people. IMO, it has been better for my mental health to be alone than to be with commiserators. It's even better when you're able to connect with people and share revelry.
>More recently, in what is no doubt a manifestation of the desire to fit in with the majority, even dark-skinned minorities, whose epidermis is unsuited to tattooing, are having themselves tattooed in ever-larger numbers.
smells a bit racist and ignorant to me, I mean, tattoos are part of African tribes culture for at least few millennia. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_tattooing#North_Afr...
But comparing modern men to tribesmen, that might be a little...
Well, obviously, but this is slightly different in content than "unsuited to tattooing", which is false as the rich history of African tattoos shows, and very different in connotation, which was my point.
> But comparing modern men to tribesmen
I didn't make any comparison.
Have you considered sitting down and asking them, with an open heart and mind?
There is no art or prettiness in tattoos.