Hacker News Reader

Comment by aldoushuxley001 | Hacker News Reader

Almost certainly they switched contractors because of corruption.

Here in Montreal, it's well known that the mob runs the construction industry and quite frankly you're not allowed to even bid on contracts without their say so, otherwise you'll get visited for a very frank chat.

So I can't speak for why infrastructure is expensive elsewhere, but atleast here in Quebec (& likely RoC) it's simply because of corruption. See the recent woes of SNC Lavalin.

View on HN

15 years ago,I worked on a residential project. Being a young boy with not much of work experience, I found it quite amusing. One day I got assigned to register all incoming deliveries. So here comes this truck with bricks.The driver gets off the truck,I inspect the bricks and he gives me the paperwork to sign: it says 7 trucks with n pallets of bricks..I look at the driver,at the truck and ask him: so where are the other 6 trucks??? The driver looks at me,has a good laugh and says: that's not something you or I need to worry about. Just sign and move on...The H&S inspector from the council used to pay occasional visits to the site.He told the site manager that if someone dies,he should call him first and then the ambulance...The owner of the business used to come on site on weekly basis to pay us wages.He used to carry a briefcase stuffed with money and a gun...On the opposite site of the road there used to be the office of a political party..The head of the party used to come to our site for money. The site manager used to call the project owners,local millionaires, asking what to do.They used to tell him to give him the money and they will reimburse him later on... It was a circus of a highest order...

Why would you passively participate? This seems like corruption at its core - something worthy of a fight against!

I think that's addressed in the parent

>He used to carry a briefcase stuffed with money and a gun

The Guardian had a so-called Concrete Week[1] earlier this year when they published articles related to the concrete industry and its impact.

One of the articles [2] touched briefly on the corruption related to the building and concrete industry.

I assure you, these mafias exist in a lot of places. Odebrecht has entangled governments of Peru and Brazil with corruption here in South America. I would be interested where else has this happened.

[1] https://www.theguardian.com/cities/series/guardian-concrete-...

[2] https://www.theguardian.com/cities/2019/feb/25/concrete-the-...

Teh French cement company Lafarge did business with jihadis in Syria during the current civil war, including with the Islamic State [1]. That's corruption on a whole new level, as I'm 100% sure the decision to conduct this type of business was taken at the company's HQ in France.

[1] https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/jun/28/lafarge-charge...

The thing is, even if this is true, it still doesn’t explain the cost difference between us and e.g. Japan. Construction firms and public infrastructure works in Japan have well-known ties to the yakuza, yet they still finish these at way lower costs than us (even though labor is more expensive!) Why?

Cultural differences: Japan is pretty homogenous and they seem to see themselves as part of a whole whereas in the US, for example, exploiting your fellow citizens for profit is almost a matter of duty in business.

Seems like a cliched and simplistic explanation to just waive away a large difference with 'culture'.

Sometimes things really are that simple though. Why can you (most of the time) leave your bike outside a store you stop at in Japan but not in America? Because it isn't part of Japanese culture to take what doesn't belong to you, but is normal for a number of Americans. Why can you get relatively wholesome food at a 7-11 in East Asian countries while you get junk and trash at ones in America? Because Japanese people prefer real food over getting chips and a crappy sandwich for lunch. Why are nice public facilities possible in those kinds of countries and not America? Because those people don't wreck, vandalize, and spray grafiti on them, while Americans do.

I'm an American and I don't wreck, vandalize or spray grafiti. I've seen same in Japan, Brazil, India, Hong Kong, Singapore, Paris, etc... (and US). Your generalizations are lazy.

You are one American. Generally, in American culture, the things I described are commonplace and par for the course while in East Asian countries (or other smaller, homogenous countries) not so much. If it does happen sometimes in those places, it is generally far less acceptable while in America you must simply accept it and factor it into the cost of operation. Having lived here all my life, it is funny to see anyone deny it.

And I am not surprised vandalism and graffiti occurs in Brazil, India, and Paris by the way. I would group those places in the same realm as the U.S.

Yeah, I'm American too, and I don't understand why people like the OP are so willing to defend this country against claims that are so obviously true. Vandalism and graffiti are very common in America, though of course it really depends on the area. There's plenty of graffiti in Europe too. Japan, no.

I find it really odd how some people will say good things about other place's cultures, but then deny that culture is a factor when discussing the bad parts about a place. Culture is a real thing, it really does exist, and it isn't always good.

As an Australian who has recently visited both the states and Japan, I can attest that there is a significant difference in the quality and care for the commons in both.

Personal anecdote: I saw a drunk Japanese businessman vomit on the sidewalk outside a bar in Tokyo, who then went back into the bar and collected napkins in order to clean up said puke. After cleaning up the puke, he then walked into a neighboring lamppost and collapsed to the ground, and an onlooker then went to his aid.

Would you steal a bicycle in Japan?

I wouldn't and it has nothing to do with hand-wavy culture.

The reason I would not touch the unlocked bicycle is because I know it is registered with the police. If I got stopped on that bicycle and they looked up the frame number then I would have some explaining to do. Even if I claimed it was mine I could still be prosecuted for not registering 'the change of ownership' with the police. You could imagine the lying, language difficulties and the situation spiralling out of control to end up with time spent in the cells and a few million yen in fines. Could happen.

Note that in America a bicycle is a toy. It has only survived as a vehicle that can be used on the highway by fate, there have been plenty of efforts to fully ban the bicycle from the road and to denigrate it as a toy.

To extrapolate from the bicycle theft situation in Japan to assume that Japanese people are Not Like Us and therefore don't steal is wishful thinking. Personally I believe that Americans are exceptionally unlikely to steal your stuff. I am actually sure that if I did go on a round the world tour that I would find this matter of being honest to be a near universal human trait.

Bicycle theft thing is just one example. I was giving various examples of how culture played a role in influencing the environment. I never said Japanese people are Not Like Us and "therefore don't steal".

Your personal belief that Americans are exceptionally unlikely to steal your stuff is your belief to have. But I would still not leave my bike out for the Americans who do steal to take it and then have the other Americans who don't steal victim shame me "Oh, well why did you leave your bike out?"

It's just totally different man, culture is a hell of a drug. Maybe generally, if you're a lucky person, most people are honest, but A LOT aren't, and I'm not gonna be the one to drop my guard in America. I'll leave that to you and others.

Personally I believe that Americans are exceptionally unlikely to steal your stuff.

I guess the people who stole my former startup's hardware prototypes and thousands of dollars of equipment didn't get the memo, nor did the professionals who broke into the bike lockers at a previous residence and stole thousands of dollars of bicycles.

There is also the matter of pre-emptive multi-karma. If you expect to be mugged then you will be. If you expect people to return your lost wallet then they will return it. Hence life works out better if one sees the nicest people one could wish to meet whilst in America. There is a good and a bad side to all of us, even the worst bullies can be nice on occasion. Same with thieves, there is honour among thieves, if you are in the gang they ain't going to trouble you.

Sorry to hear you have been a victim of crime, but are you sure the culprits were American?

Why blame a local when politicians always present an omnipotent and omnipresent foreign enemy?

The thieves could have been drug smuggling rapists that weren't stopped by a wall at the border. Or they could have been from Liverpool, where a sense of pride exists for being light fingered. I doubt they were true Scotsmen though.

I don't think your personal anecdote is a good indictment of corruption of a country on a statistical level.

> Because it isn't part of Japanese culture to take what doesn't belong to you, but is normal for a number of Americans.

This may be hard to believe if your knowledge of American society is limited to certain strata, but it's absolutely true. If you spend some time on Reddit, on places like /r/AmITheAsshole, you'll find that a vast proportion of people outright justifies theft, shoplifting, cheating and many other sorts of unethical behavior.

Except in areas where citizens are allowed to "exploit their fellow citizens," i.e. markets, things are done in the US and elsewhere extremely efficiently. The problem with public infrastructure spending is that incentive structures are not cost driven, or at least not primarily as a function of cost. There are promises made to unions or contractor companies who pay the politicians or makeup major parts of their constituencies. Then there are other departments that have their say, such as environmental impact analyses. Then there is major price insensitivity, because the funding was guaranteed from taxes with absolutely no implication or responsibility to spend wisely or generate a return.

yakuza would probably be mortified if they were responsible for things going badly.

Even the Yakuza feel a sense of social obligation.

The worst part is we still have shit roads.

And this has been studied. The reason is simple. The pave mix uses used car engine oil instead of new bitum/oil. This leads to surface crumbling at much higher rate.

Yet everything is blamed on the winter and salt.

Also explains the crumbling infrastructure of Montreal. The mob always needs more money to do the same work, sometimes many times more.

Reply on news.ycombinator.com