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Comment by imgabe | Hacker News Reader

Tipping just needs to die. If your business model demands that customers pay your price + 20% to pay your employees a wage they'll accept, then just increase your price by 20% and pay your employees that wage to begin with. Don't lie to customers and tell them the price is 20% lower than it really is when they're expected to add on more.

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I think the biggest problem I have with tipping is something I never hear people talk about -- it forces us to pay at the end instead of upfront.

Usually the process goes like this:

0: sit, bring water, give order, wait for food

1: eat

2: wait for the waiter to notice we are done. This can take a long time.

3: they want to pre clean the table, at which we say we are done, bring the check please

4: they drop off the check, if you are lucky, you can hand the card to them then,

5: If not, wait for them to come back to pick up your credit card

6: wait some unknown amount of time for them to bring your card back so you can sign and leave a tip

It's so much easier to pay up front and leave the second you are ready. Sometimes that ritual at the end takes longer than it takes me to eat my food.

I typically request my check immediately upon receiving the food. That way I can leave whenever I'm ready and not sit around waiting.

They’re not perfect, but every time I dine at Red Robin I like having the little kiosk at the table so I can pay when I’m ready instead of waiting for the check, the waiter to grab my card, etc. It’s a nice solution when eating with a group that is likely to order additional drinks, etc. over the course of a meal too.

Paying at the end of the meal allows you to order additional drinks or desserts after your initial order.

It's the introvert's bane. I'm done being at the restaurant, but I can't leave when I choose to.

This! They can have the table back quicker too, if we can avoid the asking for the bill dance, then waiting for the waiter to come back and take payment or whatever. More efficient for the establishment and introverts win too.

One solution is just to stand up, and wander over to the counter where the credit card machines live. This always gets their attention, and it's quicker for everyone.

just fyi, while it might seem quicker for everyone, waitstaff generally do not appreciate this.

but i'm not trying to tell anyone what to do. :)

> might seem quicker

When I finished eating twenty minutes ago, and you haven't topped up my (now empty) glass, while I wait for you to drop off the check, I'm going to argue that "seem quicker" is pretty synonymous with "_is_ quicker", whether appreciated or not. And I'm sure the people waiting for a table in the lobby would agree too.

ISTM this is definitely the kind of "service" that calls for a penny tip, on the credit card.

Supposedly(?) two pennies...

Someone explained to me that the 1 penny/cent tip was the "I appreciated things, but I don't have anything at all to spare" (and I have certainly heard the subjective philosophy of "if you can't afford to tip you can't afford to eat out")... and that two pennies was the "I'm doing this out of obligation; that sucked".

Many of the mid tier chain restaurants have terminals that allow you to pay at the table.

>it forces us to pay at the end instead of upfront

I've been to plenty of places where you pay up front, and they still ask for tips. I wouldn't expect tipping to factor into this nearly as much as encouraging you to get another drink or dessert without having to get a separate check for it.

Exactly. Personally, this is why I like cafeterias so much, as they eliminate everything except (1) in your list. You not only pay up front (with some you pay as you exit), but you know exactly what you're getting up front, too. Unfortunately, I see very few cafeterias anymore, practically none since I moved to California.

I generally concur. Living in Japan for a month, attending budget and 5-star accommodations and dining, it was very streamlined to have minimal tipping expected [or unexpected].

I've lived in Japan, and you notice the lack of tipping culture. Service is a lot worse. Go to any restaurant, you won't get service, refills etc. You have to yell or get it yourself. That's what the service would be like without tips. Servers have no incentive to take care of your table if they get paid the same either way.

I'm fine with that system, as long as it's setup that way. Give me a way to refill my drink etc. But sometimes it's setup where they have to do it, and you're either waiting an hour for a drink or a check.

Other countries don't have the same notion of what good service is, and don't expect the server to be up your ass about drink refills every 30s to count as good service. They expect you to ask if you need something, so they're not bugging you. It's just a difference in what's considered better. You see the other style at finer (expensive) restaurants in the US, sometimes. It's really nice to be able to chat with your fellow diners without some stranger constantly bugging you while being pretend-nice.

Right, I said that's fine as long as I'm able to serve myself it's okay. But when you can't find your server for an hour when you just want the check to leave, it's a bit ridiculous.

The tipping culture is directly reflective of the type of service American's like to receive.

I was just using Japan as an example of a different service culture since the GP brought up the comparison.

I agree that service is generally better in North America (vs the UK, at least), but I'm not convinced that the tipping culture has much of an impact. Tipping is so customary in the US that I find most people just tip the same amount - give or take 5% - even if the service was terrible.

That's extremely anecdotal, and I have experience in the other direction. I don't tip if service is terrible, I give over if it's great. I don't have numbers, but I'd assume people who have awful service will more likely tip less or none.

In the scenario you describe, I would agree. However, that isn't really a tip. If a service worker provides great service, the option to compensate them for their services should be allowed.(and the inverse for terrible service).

A tip should never go to the business, and if the business is collecting it, it should only go to the tip pool to pay the supporting staff as well.

I agree it's not really a tip, which should be purely optional. Unfortunately it's not treated that way in most of the US, where "expected tips" are allowed to be treated as a part of the employee's compensation.

The employer/employee wage negotiation should be completely independent of any tips and the employee should be receiving a wage they would be happy with even if they got 0 tips. Any tips should be in addition to that.

Why do we have a carve-out for certain industries and not others? I provide services of a different kind but I don't get tips. Literally all the arguments for tips should be applied to all service jobs, which is most jobs these days. How does it make sense to have them for a small subset of the US economy, especially given numerous other countries don't tip that subset.

Would you feel equally comfortable applying the same concept to your own job?

yes. But if I didn't feel comfortable, or felt like I was not being adequately compensated, I would change my job. I didnt get into my line of work because it was glamorous and rewarding, I got into it because the pay was good.

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