How can you honestly claim that you want to support arguing in good faith, and yet sincerely speculate whether Jonathan Haidt is some sort of alt-right goon?
If you wanted good faith, you didn't start off the conversation well.
If you wanted good faith, you didn't start off the conversation well.
Basically, I yearn for a rational approach to bringing together the ridiculously divided country, and at first glance Jonathan Haidt seemed to be the guy for it. But, experience has taught me that people that come to the table of this discussion and start using phrases like "political correctness" are just another conservative hiding behind a moderate, disaffected mask.
I'm impressed. I'll just note that, psychologically your comment has encouraged me to cool my heels a bit. I think this subject can make us all a bit salty.
> Basically, I yearn for a rational approach to bringing together the ridiculously divided country, and at first glance Jonathan Haidt seemed to be the guy for it. But, experience has taught me that people that come to the table of this discussion and start using phrases like "political correctness" are just another conservative hiding behind a moderate, disaffected mask.
Part of reconciliation requires recognizing when the other party has a legitimate complaint. Dr. Haidt and his compatriots are generally liberals who do believe that conservatives have a legitimate point with criticizing "political correctness". They believe conservatives have a point because they've often experienced it first hand.
Now, regarding your complaint of conservatives hiding behind a mask: is your complaint that they are conservative, or that they are hiding it?
Thank you, I try to do the same for myself in such discussions, and it's helpful to know when certain strategies work.
> Part of reconciliation requires recognizing when the other party has a legitimate complaint.
I do think about this a lot. I tend to go straight for the extreme example though, which may make it more tricky to develop effective strategies. Basically, when a bunch of self-identifying nazis/white supremacists turn up in your town, what is the "effective solution?" Basically, is reconciliation even appropriate? And if it is, how do you reconciliate when you don't believe they have a legitimate complaint, as in the case with nazis? How do you even have a dialogue without in some way legitimizing their belief system (a belief system one finds distasteful)? And further, how do you scale this to public discourse, which consists of bad actors strewn in with real people all mixed together on twitter/reddit/facebook in an indecipherable mess of shilling/fake news?
Which brings me to your question - I think, both. That they are hiding it because it annoys me when people co-opt legitimate complaints, i.e. when people accuse someone of anti-semitism for simple criticism of the government of Israel (which then devalues instances when we can criticize actual anti-semites). But, also, yes, because they are conservatives, and despite the fact that (or maybe because of the fact that) I grew up in the deep red south, I genuinely cannot separate modern alt-right ideology from the desire to bully and hurt people. I don't even know what non-alt-right conservatism is anymore - all I hear from my Texan and South Carolina friends is anger that minorities are getting represented, anger that transgender people can use whatever bathroom they want, anger at someone for being proud to work at planned parenthood...
I see angry liberals too, but maybe I just have an easier time ignoring them because they're just "the fringe crazies" to me? Perhaps because I can find a great deal of liberals to have conversations and disagree with, but I legitimately have not found someone who self-identifies as a conservative / altright / supportive of the current administration that didn't also think some people are worth less than other people, which to me removes all possibility of common ground / reconciliation.
Now that I think more about it, such people (friends in Texas for example), when shown the pain their actions or words can cause to a transgender person (as an example) start to completely move away from the entire altright ideology (and because there's no modern conservative that isn't altright, that means they become liberals). A transgender person passing without any of us knowing, suddenly revealing their transgender status (this is years ago), led to a total "crossing of the aisle" for several of my friends that had earlier in my life been big fans of "locker room talk" type behavior.
But that's not reconciliation, that's conversion. So, I need help figuring out reconciliation. Or, I need everyone to convert, and if that's the case lord help me if I'm wrong.
This is a rather amazing claim, I would be very interested in seeing some supporting evidence, since alt-right has far more in common with the left than with any proper and traditional conservatism. Unless, of course, you define "people I don't agree with" as alt-right with no regard for what they ideology might actually be.
If there are conservatives that don't engage with the world like this, I want to get a drink with them, on me, because I've lost hope.
I'm very curious what ties you see between the alt right and the left. I don't define the alt right as "people I disagree with." There's plenty on the left I disagree with - anybody engaged in violence, for starters.
People at The American Conservative [0] might be religious nuts but I don't think anyone could in good conscience accuse them of being anywhere near alt-right.
And alt-right engages in identity politics, believes in primacy of the group over individual, see "enemies" behind every tree, and want to use the State against groups they dislike. Very much like the left. And while you would not want to meet either on a dark street, both, in US at least, are, generally, clowns who would be the first ones to be sent to the camps in the Reich, or USSR, or any other shining example of what happens when either come to power.
Political rhetoric has always been inflamed. I see it from my liberal west coast politicians. I see it from friends and family. You yourself have said that all conservatives are alt-right.
> If there are conservatives that don't engage with the world like this, I want to get a drink with them, on me, because I've lost hope.
The truth, I suspect, is that they are probably all around you. Most people are not particularly introspective or philosophical when it comes to politics, but if you dig in you'll generally find there are good reasons for them believing the way they do (even if, in the end, you find those reasons unconvincing).
Dr. Haidt has done reasonable job (as a liberal) of trying to understand the conservative mind. I also recommend Arnold Kling, an economist who wrote The Three Languages of Politics, and Thomas Sowell, who wrote A Conflict of Visions.
I should also add that there is an increased intensity with some of the rhetoric, but I think that has more to do with people (on both sides) sensing that we may be undergoing a shift in the political landscape, and that more is at stake than usual. If so, it's not the first time it's happened in U.S. history (they happen approximately every ~40 years, from what I've read). Hopefully it will pass in a few years, but we'll see.
What do you do when your community faces large numbers of outsiders from a culture that holds antithetical values from your own? I don't rightly know. In general I'd say the best approach is to try and avoid that situation to begin with.
> I see angry liberals too, but maybe I just have an easier time ignoring them because they're just "the fringe crazies" to me?
Fair enough. As a long-time resident of the Left Coast I'd say that our situations are largely reversed.
> I legitimately have not found someone who self-identifies as a conservative / altright / supportive of the current administration that didn't also think some people are worth less than other people
I don't know what to tell you. I do consider myself a conservative in the Russell Kirk/Thomas Sowell sense: i.e. I believe there is such a thing as Human Nature and that it is subject to certain limitations. I don't think this entails that some people are worth less than others.