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Comment by dahart | Hacker News Reader

> You’re describing merges, not commits, or pushes to remotes.

Both merges and commits can be pushed. I’m not exactly sure what distinction you’re trying to make.

Also, btw, I’m using git terminology, but not everyone uses git. I’m including my experience on teams that use Perforce, for example.

> One can commit and push to branches all day. Merging them to master without a heads up is a bad idea.

Yeah, right, exactly. You agree with me. My policy is about putting anything new in the master branch during off hours, because breaking changes that evade the tests may not get fixed until work hours, and prevent other people from working at night or over the weekend.

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The article is about the times of day Git commits were made, not the times of day they were pushed, nor the times of day people used other source-control systems like Perforce. You said, "I’d be very cautious about assuming that commit time has anything to do with work time," citing your own policy of not pushing at night as an example of how "commit time" may not have anything to do with work time. Now you're saying, "My policy is about putting anything new in the master branch during off hours," which is to say, it's about pushes, not commits.

This means that your original top-level comment is completely irrelevant to the article you are commenting on, which is unfortunate, since it's the top-voted comment on the article. You should edit the top-level comment to reflect that fact, or, if that's not possible, add a second-level comment retracting it.

I stand by my top comment, avoiding pushes Friday and waiting until Monday often leads to both code commit times on Monday and merge commit times on Monday. (Edit: and BTW I know this for a fact, because we monitored average commit times to make sure the policy was being adhered to.)

If you look at the code from the article, you’ll see that the author did not filter out merge commits. The word merge doesn’t even appear in the article. The OPs data includes merge commits.

You’re trying to draw a hard and idealized line that doesn’t exist in real companies. Squashes often happen right before push. Stashing for the weekend rather than committing is common. People unsafely leaving uncommitted changes in their workspace over the weekend is common. Most devs in my experience are not git experts, and they don’t always use git in best practices kinds of ways. That is made evident every time there’s a git thread on HN.

I am talking about commit time, my push policy affects my commit times. You can’t count on commit times to demonstrate anything.

> You can’t count on commit times to demonstrate anything.

Very extreme stance! Especially for so deep in thread. Sometimes it’s nice to make your ideas more specific as you go deeper in conversation, not just radicalize and double down.

Interesting; I don’t consider what I said extreme or radical at all. I’ll rephrase it into a question: what do you claim that commit time demonstrates, considering that commit times can and do in practice very often change immediately prior to push?

How can a commit time change?

It's a different commit. I was talking about introducing and then pushing new commits with different timestamps than the original, not somehow modifying timestamps on a specific commit. The commit that gets pushed can, and often does, have a different timestamp than the timestamp on the commit when the code was written.

git commit --amend changes author time.

git commit --amend --reset-author changes both author time and commit time.

git rebase changes commit time.

All three commands can be used just before a merge and push to clean things up. So there is no guarantee that the author time or commit time we see in the final commit history accurately represents the actual time at which the work was done.

Commit time has some correlation with when code is written. It’s not perfect, but for me personally it’s usually close.

Whether that correlation models reality closely enough to be useful depends.

My understanding of your “commit time demonstrates nothing” assertion is that you are saying there is no useful information there, which seemed like a radical position for so deep in the thread.

You're attempting to defend the relevance of your comments to an article about the development practices of, among other people, Linus Torvalds, by saying, "Most devs in my experience are not git experts, and they don’t always use git in best practices kinds of ways." Perhaps you are not aware that Linus Torvalds originally wrote Git, and did so specifically to mechanize what he considers to be "best practices".

Edited to add: apparently something in my phrasing is leading you to believe that I'm angry with you and wanting to attack you. I'm not sure what that is, but that isn't my intention. I just think what you're saying isn't true, or rather is presumably true of your company but not of this article, and I was trying to explain why. I'm sorry for writing in what is apparently an aggressive tone.

Thank you, yes I’m well aware that Linus wrote git. I’m not sure what made you so angry, but I’m up for continuing this discussion if you’re really open to discussion, as opposed to proving me wrong no matter what. It currently feels like the latter, but I think you’re not listening or understanding what I’ve said. It seems like you’re making assumptions.

Maybe you missed that I pointed out above that Linus makes a lot of merge commits, and you’ve just ignored my previous point about merge commits which is completely and directly relevant to my comments. The article included Linus’ merge commits in their histogram of his commit times. If Linus is waiting to merge like I do, then the data is skewed. If Linus is code reviewing and emailing in the morning, and writing code at night, then the data is misleading.

The merge commits made by Linus will have as their date and time the time when he made the merge locally on his own machine, which can be different from the time that he pushed those changes out (and given that he specifically designed git to have this capability it seems rather plausible that he uses it).

Merge commits are really the same as non-merge commits. The only difference is the number of parent commits, which is irrelevant for this discussion.

For what is worth kragan is entirely right here.

As strawman arguments often are within their own context. That doesn't mean I'm wrong. My point that merge commits were included in the OP's article and data went unanswered by @kragen, and it's directly relevant to what I said at the top; merge commits don't represent work time, but they're being counted here. Code commits also don't necessarily represent work time either, due to squashing, stashing, and general dev practice, so I haven't heard any evidence that convinces me otherwise. Do you have any to add?

Your attack on my integrity here is unwelcome and entirely unwarranted; that does make me angry. I regret having given you so much of my time in this thread and having assumed good faith on your part.

> Your attack on my integrity here is unwelcome

I absolutely did no such thing. You may wish to consider taking that untrue statement back, for the sake of your integrity. Nothing I said is attacking you personally in any way.

You called for a retraction of my top comment, implying it is flip-flopping and hypocritical, but you misunderstood my argument and made a rebuttal point that didn't address mine. That's a straw man, and since you appear to believe "straw man" is judgemental, it is not. It simply means you're arguing against a different point than the one I made.

It's a fact that you haven't yet responded to the merge commit point I made, and that merge commits in the OPs data are relevant to my original comment.

> I regret having given you so much time

You make it sound like I'm supposed to appreciate you calling my words untrue and "completely irrelevant". How does arguing with me and saying I'm attempting to defend an irrelevant position amount to you extending good faith?

Merging is work too. The times of merges are indicators that the person did work at that time.

Obviously the methodology is limited but it does seem to work well in practice. If you have evidence that the statistics are wrong for one of the listed programmers, please do share it.

I find kragan's comments to be creating strawman arguments. They are unnecessarily confrontational.

That to me seems more like a sign that you should be enforcing a policy that pushing the merge button is gated by tests passing (& in successful application pushing the "merge button" should be nothing but a request to automation to apply the merge & do the tests before actually pushing it as a new master). If you're saying that there are breaking changes that are possible that test coverage is insufficient for, I would propose that the test coverage needs to be addressed. Is this advice for small 1 person repos? It can be if you want to develop good habits or be more diligent at preventing defects. It becomes more applicable as more people start contributing.

Teams I’ve worked on do gate the merges by passing tests. You’re right; test coverage is insufficient. I’ve never worked anywhere with sufficient test coverage, I truly hope to some day, but new features in my experience have always come with new breakage and new tests.

> Is this advice for small 1 person repos?

I’ve never used a wait to push policy on my own repos, I’d say my policy doesn’t make any sense in that scenario. The goal of the policy is to prevent breaking other people, not to prevent breaking myself.

Your original comment reads like pushes only goes to master, so you wait to push to a non master branch until working hours.

I found the phrasing abstruse relative to my daily way of thinking of these things

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