My Last Macbook Pro
theswiftdev.com
theswiftdev.com
But whatever, I am not gonna leave my macbook behind just because of that. By comparison, my Macbook is still better than my work Dell Latitude (which costs the same) that sounds like a jet engine because the fan keeps coming on, battery lasts for less than 5 hours, wireless keeps dropping, and I occasionally gets the BSOD...
Nothing's perfect, that's just life.
And yet, here I am, three keyboards later, with no end in sight given that I couldn't possibly baby mine more than I do without locking it up in an argon-filled clean room.
History won't look at this era of Apple laptops favorably. It really makes one wonder how they missed this one.
It's also an indictment of this era of both hardware and software that nobody else produces a more compelling option.
They were way ahead of other laptop makers in basically every way but upgradeability, so they could afford to screw up like 1/2 of all the things about their laptop (all at once, which is pretty crazy), badly, and still be way ahead on the other 1/2, such that switching isn't an unequivocal win.
Meanwhile, I still have a Dell Latitude 10+ years old that's chugging along on its original battery (now down to about 30 min battery life), an HP consumer convertible laptop (early precursor to the tablet laptop era) that's almost as old and still chugging along. Keyboards on both still work great and have survived pizza, crumbs, and numerous spills--and both still infinitely more comfortable than the punishingly thin keyboards on their Apple counterparts of the time and since. My Surface Pro 3 has survived being dropped multiple times from heights that have killed my coworkers' iWhatevers.
Oh... and the real kicker? Each of these laptops cost several hundred dollars less than comparable Apple laptops with the same or better specs. Pretty much the only category Apple had them beat was in (subjective) appearance.
Well, people keep on buying the darn things even though they know what they're getting into.
I don't recall the exact wording, something like "noise emissions level is under some required threshold" (I don't have the link at hand but I think I can rescue at least one from Dell support forum). The thing is, to me the fan noise when it turns on is less annoying than the high pitched whine.
I have an old XPS 13 model (9333 I think, the battery is still going strong tho) and with the keyboard backlight turned off (I won't use it anyway) and no USB peripherals attached is dead silent. Otherwise, If I plug a mouse or an USB hub/network adapter there is the continuous whine.
To be honest, I can only hear it in silent rooms in my home with window closed, in an office environment it's droned out.
The whine is the only gripe I have with the HW as Debian has worked flawlessly with it.
My screen stopped working for a week and started working again for absolutely no reason.
It's a known problem : https://www.dell.com/community/XPS/XPS-13-9350-Black-Screen/
And none of the mentioned fixes worked more than a day for me.
Mine's quiet as a mouse.
Sample size 1, maybe I was just lucky. But happy people don't tend to be as loud as angry people.
Takes machine into apple store “Yep, new keyboard needed” “That’ll be 3 weeks” “Can I have a loaner laptop?” “No, we don’t do that” “Ok I’d like to buy your latest highest spec MBP you have in stock on my credit card” “Ok here you go”
3 weeks later: “Your MBP is ready” “Cool, can I return this one please as I’m still in the returns window” “...okay”
Loaner laptop achieved
Wow! How can someone have such a dirty keyboard? I would be more concerned about the exaggerated amount of particles in the air that I’m breathing if my computer looked like the one in this picture. I don’t know if the image is accurate, but in three (3) years of typing in a MacBook Pro with the same keyboard as the one described in this article, it has never gotten to that point.
To answer your question more directly: my MBP keyboard is usually spotless due to my obsession with cleaning it, but even just spending half an hour working outside on a windy day, or using my laptop while at my parents house (who have two large dogs that shed a lot) will result in it looking like that. And to the article's point: such scenarios have lead to some very annoying keyboard issues with my MBP.
I could bury my mechanical keyboard, dig it out, punch it, drop water on it and I bet it would still work correctly after drying it.
If true, the cause could be stress related. Probably from the keyboard not working...
But yea, that amount shouldn't be a problem for a keyboard. It's all outside of the contacts, and it's not blocking the motion. If it's actually enough to cause failure, I'd pretty solidly side on "this is designed wrong".
Maybe all these folks saying keyboards always break and that that amount of dirt is nothing are the ones abusing them so much and needing replacements. My MBP is about 20 months old, i work on it 8-10 hours a day 5-6 days a week and i have had no problems with it whatsoever.
I had a co-worker who had Palmoplantar hyperhidrosis(extremely excessive sweating of the hands). his keyboards were the grossest id ever seen, he used mechanical keyboards specifically and still had to replace them more than once a year... so nothing is bomb proof.
https://www.amazon.com/UPPERCASE-GhostCover-Premium-Keyboard...
$12. Problem solved.
Iirc macbooks also have issues with those messing up the screen. At the very least, every macbook with a keyboard condom that I have seen in real life had the keyboard outline quite visibly imprinted on the screen surface.
In fact if you scroll down on that amazon page, the product description has a link to a 'screen imprint protector' (a loose paper-linke piece of material) designed specially to protect against that issue.
If you put a condom on it and have to carry around a loose screen protected and put it on every time you close the lid, then its kind of sad to say that there's not a gigantic issue with the machine or that that's a trivial solution.
Also I've also read stories of people using those keyboard condoms and still having the keyboard break.
Apple sells ~20 million Macs per year. If we assume that developers buy a new machine every 3 years or so, and all Macs are bought by iOS developers, that would be 60 million developers. There are on the order of 2 million iOS apps in the store, so I expect there are far fewer than 60 million iOS developers and the overwhelming majority of consumers buy them for other reasons. Hence the trend for features that appeal to casual users (sleek exterior, glossy screens, shallow keyboards) and not to actual professionals.
There are design tools like Sketch that are only available on OS X as well. I think there's probably a coolness-factor coming in as well. No one wants to be the agency with a bunch of crummy old Windows laptops, how uncool! They'll get laughed out of Cannes.
I think I've seen someone running Linux on their work machine, like, once, in... 18 years? Twice if I count me, in the first half of my career.
I really can't understand why they went away from things that were working like Magsafe, a useable keyboard, escape keys etc.
The general disregard, from Apple, for power users of the Macbook pro has been really frustrating and bemusing
They day I change jobs and my personal one dies, I'm with OP, no more MacBooks for me!
These newer models have an Intel Iris Pro integrated GPU. It's a big step down in performance, especially noticeable if you connect an external 4K dispay or use the Retina display at non-uniform scale factors. The Radeons supported resolutions up to 5K, Iris maxes out at 4K, apparently.
I discovered this when I spilled coffee on my 2015 MBP and had to get a new one, and I nearly spilled my coffee all over again when I saw that the discrete GPU was missing.
Since I don't need much mobility these days I bought an iMac 5k and it was a great decision. Best Mac I've ever owned. When I need to move I have an old 2014 13'' MBP lying around.
Those machines are pretty much perfection in a laptop.
I guess I don't understand the experience of using another keyboard than the one built-in to the device. Haven't used it, but it wouldn't seem to be a good experience if you either had to set it on top of your existing keyboard or needed an extra 30% or so of desk space, only for 50% of your laptop real estate to be used for nothing.
Even if you could, it sounds pretty irritating to carry.
I bought a brand new Pro 2019 model but haven't opened it yet and hoping to resell it since Hong Kong doesn't do returns -- where it was purchased. It's keyboard was already listed in the replacement program, even before I bought it. My current Air is 6 years old and chugging along (i7 1.6Ghz with 3.1Ghz boost). The new MBP won't last beyond 4 (Apple support expiry on keyboard replacement).
Not sure how a minor membrane change can help alleviate the keyboard issues. CPU throttling is another known issue. Best to wait it out for the new Air with scissor keys due up later this year.
The new keyboards keep failing, the repair times are far too long, and after 4 years, the limit to the repair program, the laptop has to be written off as soon as the keyboard needs another repair.
Apple urgently needs to go back to their previous keyboard designs which worked just fine. And they need to go back to a hardware design, where a keyboard or battery exchange can be done for a resonable price in a reasonable time. This should require only a few minutes in the shop instead of leaving your device at Apple for weeks.
Closer to square maximizes screen area for a given maximum or diagonal dimension, 4:3 is close to the human field of view, and in general, I find it to be a more suitable aspect ratio for most tasks than 16:9 or 16:10.
I'm pretty frustrated and a bit confused by the dominance of 16:9. The fact that it's the standard for TV shouldn't imply that it becomes the standard for laptops.
But can we stop posting random blog posts about it? Unless the person has some unique insight into the problem, or ideas for homegrown solutions, let it be.
Dear Apple laptop designers, I would pay a premium for a mid-2015 15-inch Macbook Pro with updated specs. Drop that touchbar bullshit. Bring back the true innovation that was MagSafe. Maybe replace one of the Thunderbolt ports with USB-C if you must. And please bring back that keyboard.
I'm not sure this is true: the highest-end iPads can approach the lowest-end MacBook (Pros?) on some synthetic benchmarks, but the performance delta between the mid- and high-spec MBPs against the iPads still seems to be quite high. Let alone some of the higher end desktop Macs (some people, though not me, still need them).
Unless you actually need to use Windows-only tools, in what way is Windows better than Linux for software development?
More guts for your bucks.
Although, the casing was cheesy feeling - its a perfect linux box - can dual boot windows or even run windows as a virtual machine - but the machine is really good...
YOu'd rather sit at a desk and squint at a 15" screen and hands on a non ergo keyboard?
> The fix for it was a new logic board
This was saddening to read.
For a while it was just x and y so i could copy paste from abc.xyz. But that started seriously hurting my fingers after a while. When the e broke, i decided to get an external keyboard. Though now i need a suitecase to move it around (17in gamer laptop + huge charger + external keyboard, kill me), it works great !!
(Also, right ctrl does not work either, but mine is mapped to caps lock).
My friend has an msi as well and same keys have started failing. Quick googling and i found a lot of msi laptops have (had?) this problem, though msi doesnt care. I cannot wait to have some money to get myself a new laptop. Its a shame though, this keyboard was amazing. Too bad it died in less than 2 years....
"What alternative is there to the mac???"
I mean.... literally any other laptop. Google Search: site:news.ycombinator.com "alternatives to macbook pro" or something.
I don't like being so brash but it's taking a spot on the front page that could be something more interesting...
Though, unfortunately I don't hear great things about alternatives. I plan on moving to Linux, but I'm unsure what to do about laptops. Nothing seems quality, even counting Macbook Pro's recent downtrend.
Best I've heard of is the various Thinkpad lines, but even those are a mixed bag. I see some people defend them, and others trash them.. tough market out there for people who simply want quality unix laptops.
As I was dropping my laptop off at an authorized repair shop, I went and typed on last year's MacBook they had on display and was reminded why I may never buy another MBP -- the butterfly keyboard. There's hardly any keyboard travel at all so it was like typing on concrete. If I wasn't looking at the screen, I'd never be sure if my key presses registered or not. If Apple doesn't bring back the scissors keyboard I may never buy another Mac. Ever. Between the butterfly keyboard, that stupid touchbar, and the lack of a physical escape key, Apple has ruined the MBP line for (non-Apple) web developers like myself.
Beware that all machines in the world right now are struggling with the fact that windows invented a new sleep method (s3 or some shit, I can't keep track) which ubuntu/the linux kernel / something beyond my understanding doesn't support. LONG story short, some laptops running ubuntu can't sleep when the lid closes.
X1 carbon does now, but for example the HP Spectre does not (which is a shame because it's a great platform).
Good keyboard. Every port you probably need. Fantastic screen. Nub mouse thing. Runs ubuntu great.
If you're worried about transferring from OSX to some flavor of linux that's fair. For me I couldn't get window management like I wanted in OSX so Ubuntu + Gnome is actually a more comfortable environment for me than OSX. I say that as not some old linux fart - I just tried them all and naturally gravitated to the things old linux farts like.
I agree, it is a tough market. I say give a shot to non-aluminum chassis. The Thinkpad may not "look" as tough, but it reeeeally is, I've abused the absolute piss out of mine.
Purism's laptops are pretty premium, coming at an apple tier price.
Have to admit my gut is to trust the Thinkpads more simply due to the number of units they ship. Librem seems super niche, despite me loving their goals/etc.
If you're looking at other Thinkpads, the Librem machines may be worth investigating.
I'm not sure how well they run operating systems that run non-free software (this includes Ubuntu, note), they have some OS of their own?
If you want dumb-proof, tested Ubuntu-tops, then yea, Thinkpad.
If I could recommend something, it would be to look for similar. A SSD + Name Brand Video Card in any laptop will be fine.
I think it is highlighting market dysfunction: the 2015 MacBook was superior, and currently there is no market alternative, purely because someone in a sufficiently powerful position was able to make a decision against the interests of their customers, and then stick to it.
I have no doubt that the market will eventually correct itself (Ubuntu on a Razer Blade might well be my personal answer), but I think posts like this have a place in highlighting that we are still waiting for a solution and a major amount of pain and frustration is the result.
Doesn't he have the v1 of the butterfly keyboard? There's a much newer, updated 2019 version (if I count correctly, already v5):
https://www.macrumors.com/roundup/macbook-pro/
"Apple says this updated keyboard will significantly cut down on key failures that have been prominent in prior MacBook Pro models."
Like always, the answer is "a new Mac."
And there even rumors about even newer keyboards:
https://www.theverge.com/2019/7/4/20682079/apple-butterfly-s...
Getting customer support is damn near impossible for 2 reasons. 1. The serial number of my XPS comes up as Precision Tower in their systems 2. I moved continents since purchase and I'd have to transfer the ownership to myself here in NA, except turns out the owner, in Dell's database, is still the Amazon reseller I bought it from 3years ago
Terrible terrible experience with Dell. Switched to a Pixelbook which I love and handles my Sublime-based environment well enough
Besides that the coil whine drives me up a wall.
Doesn't hurt that I get to "stand out" as a single, unlabeled black laptop among a sea of stickered silver macbooks.
I also don't annoying that the fan speeds up for a few seconds every minute while the workload doesn't vary (needs a more analog variable speed control?)
Other than the noises, it's been a really good Linux laptop, and the only reasonable option with a fast i9 at the time I got it.
Sorry about your keyboard, it does suck, but I think it will be changed soon.
* Expect Apple’s Butterfly keyboard to be perfect in the first iteration (2016 models were the first ones to get them).
* Argue that the butterflies in '18/'19 notebooks are the same as the '16 one.
The '18 MBP’s keyboards have fixed the issues, Apple nailed it. While the '16/'17 MBP’s keybord issues are a real problem, the fuzz about the '18 MBP’s keyboard reliance is just noise from some of the common anti-Apple people. (I have used all three models, and the difference coming from the silicone cover is real. I have yet to see any semi-failing or stiff keys in the '18 model, after one full (dirty) use of them.)
(Aside from the fact that this blog post adds no value about the MBPs,) People really shouldn’t be assuming things about the butterfly keyboards.
We're not talking the first iteration of the concept of a keyboard on the first iteration of the concept of a laptop. This is nobody's first iteration. This is the final iteration of an essential component of an ultra-high-end product. You can expect them to be perfect, you should expect them to be perfect, and if they are not perfect you should expect them to fix them - quickly, and once.
It’s not something like Apple is a company with time machines :-)
One point that most people just don’t seem to consider is that the problem is greatly exaggerated. Negative reviews usually get much more tractions than the positive ones, mostly because the people who are positive about the MBPs don’t feel any needs to write a review about them (while negative people do).
Keyboards shouldn’t have design flaws. There’s no wiggle room here and no excuses for Apple’s incompetence. It is simply poor design and equally poor testing processes.