Hacker News Reader

Comment by mpfundstein | Hacker News Reader

I don’t want to hate because the article in general is great. But it bothers me tremendously that the author continously refers to the player as ‘they’, ‘their’ etc in order to be gender neutral.

1) it reads like shit 2) screenshots even shows the player char is female? 3) it feels so freaking forced.

I know i am probably downvoted now like hell but I am so sick of this movement to get rid of gender in text. It started with all of this ‘the programmer, he or she ...’, then everything was a ‘she’ (any male coders in modern textbooks anymore?) , and now all are ‘they’...

Call me conservative but I don’t like it. And tech is especially affected...

Every stupid js conf only has gender neutral toilets. And people fucking hate it. But no one dares too say it loud. Too easy to get banned...

View on HN

It might not be that "no one dares say it too loud," it might be that people don't hate it or even (like me) like this work towards rebalancing.

btw being from the UK, "they" singular in text is normal, especially in this case where the gender of the player is unknown, and seeing he/she here would really trip me up (as it does when I read older articles from the US that use "he" arbitrarily). It's a style thing, but one I've always liked as more accurate.

As a non-english native, I didn‘t know that. I thought „they“ always meant more than one. What‘s the reasoning if you know the gender? How to differenciate between a group and a person whose gender is unknown?

It's not like words cannot be overloaded. Lots of languages use the plural form to show respect or politeness, or regard somebody with esteem (like the royal "we") for instance.

But in this case it would lead to loss of information (singular or plural). I’d prefer he/she too or even a completely new word.

Having more information isn't always better. Imagine if our language had pronouns that told you the race of the person, or whether they had a beard or not. A culture that primarily used pronouns like these would probably develop very strong arbitrary associations related to race or beards. If people were familiar with alternatives, plenty would be uncomfortable with one of these details always being packed in to references to them.

Well, always using those words would say something about the culture, not the language.

In my language journalists created a new word for it that was met with resistance first, but it doesn’t corrupt another word and it has been added to all dictionaries and is used heavily.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Singular_they

Thanks, that's interesting.

"Every one must judge according to their own feelings." That's a nice example on how it can be used. Most of the older examples include "every" or "any" before using they. I think I need to study that part of the language as (at least in some situations) it seems like a nice way to get around using a generic form.

When working as a sub-editor, the use of 'they' really solves a political problem for me that can't be addressed any other way. That said, it is massively misused in the source article, since the player is clearly either female or determined to identify as female - which also solves the problem.

Well there are two entities: the character and the player. The character is female, but a player doesn't need to identify as female to have a female character.

Since the article is about the player more generally (the article discusses the player in other games), and the player prefers not to be gendered, I think "they" is appropriate here.

I'm from the UK and I honestly didn't even realise the use of they in the article until I read the parent comment. It seems totally natural to me and feels like a perfect way to avoid gender in contexts where it is unknown or intentionally avoided. I find it incredibly annoying when I read text with made up or assumed genders, especially as the parent commenter points out when articles use she for inanimate objects or objects with undefined genders.

To me and many others it feels as a forced, immature (almost childlike), aloof desire for change. You use words like ‘rebalance’ as if there is an objective, universally shared belief our culture is out of balance. Thank God we have you as our savior.

Things will get out of balance the more it is forced, because with every politically correct motion, there is an equal opposite motion. All that is achieved is further polarization and misunderstanding.

To say the articles’ use of ‘they’ is normal in the UK feel duplicitous. I’ve read my fair share of British literature, newspapers and articles. The text feels completely alien to British writing.

Because "they" in text has always been common for me, it's not a change and not forced -- it's been like this as long as I can remember.

I can't speak for the British writing you've read, but as a Brit living in and having grown up in the UK, singular non-gendered "they" is normal and common in both formal and informal text. Could be a function of my social context or the writing I've been exposed to, it's true. We all have our own perspective.

There's even an example of it in the Canterbury Tales (one of the most iconic early English texts). I can't remember the exact line now, but it got me quite annoyed when American writing teachers would mark my uses of "they" as incorrect and demand "he or she".

"They" as generic third person singular goes back at least five centuries. I am (obviously) referring to address a known individual using "They" / "Their".

It is common in colloquial English to use "they"/"their" as a generic third person singular.

For example: "Could the person who left their umbrella please pick it up?"

However, here it is used in a rather new setting for a specific and known individual. This is a rather new phenomenon pushed by the transgender and genderqueer community.

I am specifically addressing the latter usage of the form 'they' in the third person singular. Do you agree this form is new? If not, could you give references to earlier usage than, say 1990?

> You use words like ‘rebalance’ as if there is an objective, universally shared belief our culture is out of balance.

I thought it was a fairly universal idea that there’s an high level of amount of gender imbalance with regards to professional programmers. Most frequently seen at programming meetups and conventions. Maybe it’s not commonly accepted as a problem in your sphere, but I’d bet if you asked around you’d get answers that surprise you.

There are also many more male garbage man than garbage woman. Where is the outcry?

Why aren’t there more garbagewomen? Is it the same reason there are aren’t women professional programmers? What’s your argument as to why there are these differences - that it’s some sort of natural order?

People with low education have the opportunity to work an physically demanding low pay job regardless of gender. Women are forced out of high paying intelectual job because they can't be one of the Bros

This is the second time in the same thread that you've taken a leap into generic flamewar. That's exactly what we don't want in discussions here. Would you please review the site guidelines and not do that on HN? It's extremely tedious, only gets worse, and ends distastefully.

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

There is definitely a difference in outcome in the programmers community. The question is whether there is a difference in opportunity.

Don't you think that by emphasizing the differences by forcefully changing our accepted speech, you are making it harder for women to enter the sphere?

To be able to fight, but refraining from fighting, is what makes us human. It allows us to show mutual respect and to form true connections.

As a relevant perspective, here is a recent NYTimes op-ed advocating for the use of singular “they” even when the gender is known:

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/07/10/opinion/pronoun-they-gend...

Use of 'they' if sex is unknown is normal I'd say. This is not the case here it seems though, so a complaint is valid.

I do not think a formal 'they' is improper, or a new innovation e.g. see comment here (https://www.lexico.com/en/grammar/he-or-she-versus-they) (I might amend this later to add some examples with some google-fu, but it shouldn't be hard to find some 17th-century prose). See also the comments and answers here https://english.stackexchange.com/questions/108457/is-using-...)

That said, the author misuses and misapplies the construct, as the gender seems known to me from a quick pass of the article, and as mentioned by other commenters. Yes, it feels forced and it usually doesn't -- you probably have already encountered similar examples before, but did not notice them.

Singular they is fine even if you know the gender.

We don't know the gender here.

You realise you don't have to play the same gender as you are in real life right?

It's probably more likely they just wanted to remain anonymous rather than this being part of some sort of movement to eliminate gender in text

You were uncomfortable with textbooks when they used 'she', and against them trying to include you once more with 'they/them'?

So the only acceptable option by this line of thinking is that the default pronoun should be 'he/him'. This attitude seems something a little different from 'conservative'.

I'm not sure he was saying he was uncomfortable.

I agree that "they" is awful, and I would definitely prefer that we just have to make the unknown pronoun always be "she" if that is what everyone needs to not throw an inequality tantrum.

From recollection the article was clear in inferring that the human player wished to remain anonymous including identifying features. We are only told: - avatar female - player had slight southern drawl on phone.

From this information the gender of the player is unknown, and since the article is about the player, not the avatar, gender neutral pronouns are appropriate to maintain journalist integrity.

From your comment it sounds like you’re attributing gender politics to this article where there isn’t necessarily any.

> screenshots even shows the player char is female

The fact that they play a female character does not mean they are female.

Maybe the player themselves wanted to referred to using neutral pronoun? Maybe they didn't want to reveal their gender? I don't see why this is a problem and triggers such reaction

I don't honestly notice it, it is a non issue and I use them without thought. I think you're just overthinking it here.

Damn are you really so triggered over pronoun use that you needed a multi-paragraph comment about it?

Conservative definitely checks out

I agree with you. In addition to it being weird to read, having 'he' and 'she' also allows you to be able to mentally separate two individuals in a context where applicable.

It's because the person behind the character is a man.

I'm from the UK, it might be normal to occasionally say they when you don't know the name, gender and have an image but I don't agree with others that the way this article is written isn't very stilted as a result.

I think the wider debate has probably sailed. I remember the confusion at having to add a fourth gender (beyond M/F/other) to an input dropdown list on a system 10 years ago. It's probably a textarea now.

It's because the reader does not know the gender of the anonymous human player.

Languages evolve, and in this case it's for the better.

I don’t see how it’s any better that pronouns lose their gender, making them less specific and therefore less useful.

It's more specific, not less: having he/she/they allows us to refer to male/female/unknown instead of overloading "he" to mean both male/unknown. Similar reason to why you sometimes want to allow NULL on a boolean column.

I think the argument is that "they" is often used in the plural form, and requires context to determine where it's referring to the singular. This context isn't always clear which leads to ambiguity.

I don’t think there’s a movement to remove gender from text. I think you’re reading into the overuse/misuse of “they” in this article in a super extreme way, and have connected it to all sorts of unrelated political movements regarding gender expression, of which you are clearly not a supporter. You see a connection here that I don’t think exists.

I agree. I was confused as if there were two people? Stopped reading

>they’re known as Katia Sae

I thought this referred to a group known as the Katia Sae? Is this a person?

Yes, it's a person using a female character in-game. No way of determining the gender of the player behind that character. Hence, a gender-neutral term.

At best, this seems like a very weird thing to get up in arms about.

But worse, and I think more likely, it shows you are intolerant to change. I think that, equally likely, it shows you are just plain intolerant to some people.

> You are just plain intolerant to some people

Everyone is intolerant to some people. Apparently you are intolerant to intolerant people.

I’m not sure if it’s something to get up in arms about, but it’s not really something to be bothered by either in my opinion.

My opinion is that pronoun doesn’t matter regardless of whether it’s he/she or they. They just seems marginally less effective at conveying information.

> But worse, and I think more likely, it shows you are intolerant to change.

There are two kinds of changes: for the better and for the worse. Being always pro-change would make one an idiot.

“When you're accustomed to privilege, equality feels like oppression.”

I probably agree about the prose issue but what's your issue with gender neutral toilets? Seems way more efficient and far less stupid.

I'm not sure that they're more efficient. Take for example the large open urinals. In a situation dominated by people capable of using them and where most people are using the toilets to urinate then having Unisex (or Omnisex) toilets is extremely inefficient.

A good example of this is pretty much any football (soccer) stadium. For matches most of the crowd are men and a large number of them are drinking more than usual. Heck, I've been in a stadium with a 50/50 crowd: even when the toilets were split 2/1 for women in favor of men there was always a long queue for the girls and nothing for the boys.

Since there are no pisoars in these it is far more stupid

It's healthier for the male prostate to pee sitting down.

That's complete BS.

Male toilets are always much more filthier than female toilets. If I was a female I’d be pretty pissed if they forced me to use a urinal for men.

I spent years working in nightclubs, and visiting them too, and this was never the case.

Hover-pee is a really common thing for women, and the results are what you imagine bthey would be.

Forcing women to use urinals is very much not a thing that happens.

By toilets I mean the room itself, not the appliance.

Oh, you mean the rest room.

Where people go to rest.

Or the wash room.

Where they go to, erm, wash.

Not native. But anyway I disagree that women squat pee. They usually sit to pee here. While men don’t so all the toilet (the appliance) and the ground are full of pee. Result: the whole room stinks of pee.

I don’t know why you’re downvoted. In the UK toilet means the room, not just the thing you sit on. It’s a perfectly fine clarification to make.

(I cringe every time someone uses the euphemism 'bathroom' to mean toilet. Like, we all know you are not going to take a bath in a pub after two pints right?)

> If I was a female I’d be pretty pissed if they forced me to use a urinal for men.

This is what I was replying to. Bit of a confusing way to say “enter a room containing a urinal” if that’s what you actually meant.

Go to bathrooms in airports, conference centers at hotels, or higher end restaurants and you might notice a pattern. They are clean, smells of detergent, and has this piece of paper usually next to the door with a time stamp.

Bathrooms are clean if you clean them. It is also more hygienic and gives a better impression of the place. Saving money by gendered bathrooms and only cleaning the bathroom once a week belong in the same gender discrimination category as other cost-saving tactics that involve gender.

Was thinking the same thing, I am not used to reading like this and it seems like constant grammatical errors. I don't know, English is not my first language, but I believe I would have failed my tests in school, had I written like this.

Reply on news.ycombinator.com