Is it better to avoid washing your clothes? | Hacker News Reader

Is it better to avoid washing your clothes?

bbc.co.uk

> "Powder detergent creates more friction between the clothes [during washing], so more fibres are released, whereas liquid is smoother. The less friction there is in general, the fewer fibres are released."

Is this true or just something completely made up? Sounds like bs to me, powdered detergent is not sand, it quickly dissolves when it comes in contact with water.

Agree, total mumbo jumbo. There are plenty of alkali salts in detergent, but if it wasn't soluble it wouldn't work. If you want an abrasive you add sand...

Funnily enough, a large part of it is actually clay (wet sand :-), sometimes a clay called kaolin, mostly to give it a nice white color.

Whether that actually generates friction or not, I don't know

No, at used temperatures kaolin will dissolve pretty well. However it does clog filters and causes waste as it counters water softeners. Then you require longer washing with longer drying cycle, which in fact does damage fibers.

Impossible if you have any skin conditions. I suffer from eczema (fortunately mild now, but in the past I was seriously considering suicide), and one of the things that reliably trigger a flare-up are unwashed clothes covered in dust mite excrement. Neither sun nor cold will help with that, only good old washing.

Did your eczema improve due to age, or improved practices and/or medicine?

(I'm quite far away from considering suicide, but I wouldn't mind a better quality of life)

Not the OP, but I had eczema that required regular steroid cream treatment. It did get somewhat better in my twenties, but it wasn't until I started experimenting with different lotions and moisturizers that things got a lot better.

In general, light lotions with glycerine seem to work best for me (they even taste slightly sweet). Finding Palmer's cocoa butter lotion was literally a life changer though - I apply a thin layer after ever shower, and I finally know what it's like to have normal-people skin in my thirties.

I know exactly what you mean about quality of life. It sucks when your skin is bad; _everything_ feels continuously uncomfortable. I'm not sure the same thing will work for you, but I really would encourage you to experiment with different moisturizers. Work out what's different about the better ones, and iteratively improve from there. I thought they were basically all the same, but they're really not!

I only have to deal with localized eczema flareups - when they happen they always start with small blisters forming on my middle or ring fingers, and was more frequent on my right hand. Probably very small compared to what you have to deal with, but when it first started happening over 20 years ago, it took some heavy steroid creams or ointments to control.

Over the years outbreaks have become less frequent, and now when I start to feel the tightness that would signal an upcoming outbreak can be alleviated with normal moisturizers and if it does get worse, it just requires frequent moisturizing rather than steroids.

As far as I can tell, over time the immune system continues to evolve. I can't promise the same will happen to you, but it is possible. Other allergies can be similar - especially generalized allergies - they seem to sometimes get worse or better without any real change in exposure to allergens.

I had severely dry skin and eczema to the point where my bedsheets were often covered with bloody spots because I was constantly scratching while asleep...

What worked for me eventually was not bathing/showering regularly. I started showering at most 1-3 times a week but only with water, no soap, except on the pubic areas for hygienic reasons. Might sound disgusting, but it turns out that daily showering, especially with detergents, can harm your skin by upsetting its microbiome.

I still have drier skin than other people, especially in winter, but my eczema have pretty much disappeared.

However, if my eczema would return, I would definitely try out bleach washes: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sodium_hypochlorite_washes

The studies endorsing dilute bleach baths came out well after my eczema resolved, so I have no first-hand experience with it, but it sounds cheaper and safer than corticosteroids.

I agree, skipping soap helps a lot. And when I do use it, I use liquid soap rather than bar soap. No idea why that is better.

N=1, very mild symptoms etc, but I rinse with diluted apple cider vinegar after shampoo and sometimes soap since the skin is naturally acidic. The slight scalp itch goes away.

Being heavily subject to eczema in my first two decades I have experimented with various changes to the point of having it stop 98% of the time now:

- increasing the skin natural barrier through limited soap (only if there is a stinky area) - reducing overall inflammation (better sleep, more sport, better nutrition through vegetables fruits and limited meat proteins) - bathing in the ocean - minutes of direct sun exposure

The last two will do wonders. A highly stressing episode or accumulated sleep debt however and the skin will start itching as a warning.

On that auto-immune topic, this reminds me of the Hygiene hypothesis which basically assert immune issues as a result of too much cleanliness (over simplified version).

"The hygiene hypothesis states that early childhood exposure to particular microorganisms protects against diseases by contributing to the development of the immune system. In particular, a lack of exposure is thought to lead to defects in the establishment of immune tolerance." [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hygiene_hypothesis]

I had problems with a flaky scalp, canker sores and irritating bedsheets.

Long story short, I cut out SLS (Sodium Lauryl Sulfate). I think it is just very efficient at removing protective oils from your skin, or possibly layers of "healing goo" when you have a cut or sore.

I removed it from my toothpaste, shampoo and laundry detergent.

I use verve toothpaste (@amazon), shea moisture shampoo and all fresh clean essentials sulfate free laundry detergent.

ymmv, but it has helped me quite a bit.

also, companies are tricky and rename it to various aliases on their labels to keep sales going.

And yet, stains happen. Smells accumulate on things we wear. I cycle to work every day, shouldn't I wash my tshirts? Ask my coworkers!

The solution would be to stick to cotton, denim, wool, and limit synthetic fibers. I cannot handwash everything.

Proponents claim sticking them in the freezer kills the germs. I’m not sure I’m convinced - I’d love to see some research om the topic.

It doesn't work on food why would it work on clothes?

Slow maybe, but not kill.

I don't think the bacteria are eating the clothes, they're probably eating your sweat and shed skin. Leave them at it for a few days and they should naturally starve.

Just leaving them in an airy place already works. I once forgot my sweaty (school) sport clothes in my bag over holidays... When I noticed it after a few weeks they didn't smell of anything anymore.

Doesn’t kill everything. Puts bugs in stasis, drops evaporation of smelly compounds. Smells will return as bacteria recovers outside the freezer.

exactly, if you really care about plastic in our environment, then don't get synthetic clothes. i live in a hot environment. i change shirts up to 3x a day. no way i am not going to wash those. the only item i never washed is a pair of leather pants. and also coats and jackets get washed rarely. and as for handwashing, i'd rather spend my time with more meaningful activities.

The one time I bought expensive jeans the guy told me to do this. Told me to put them in the freezer instead of washing them to preserve their color. Luckily I didn’t have to deal with the problem as I got too fat for the jeans before they had the chance to fade.

I have a few pairs of expensive jeans that I wear _a lot_ and wash maybe once every 12 months. They're great and don't smell or anything.

im guessing you do not have young children.

Don't they feel gross? I can feel when clothes are dirty, even thick pants, and it's not very pleasant. I doubt putting them in the freezer fixes it.

Nah they feel great. On the occasion something happens like I hang out near a fire and they get really smelly I just air them out for a day and it's back to 100%.

Raw denim folk can get religious about not washing their jeans. Sadly freezing doesn't help if they smell, they might feel fresher after taking them out, but the funk will be back as soon as they thaw.

Ok a little tabloid-y but definitely piqued my intellectual curiousity. Not that given how much I can sweat anyone will thank me for not washing but still it's interesting to see such a simple ingrained idea (wash clothes) being challenged with some degree of rationality - it reminds me of the question what taboos are so engrained in our society we simply don't see them

It's the old way of doing it though. Pre washing machine clothes wash tended to be underwear only, and brush and air the rest. Partly because washing was a more brutal process - boiling, wringing etc that the outer layers couldn't handle.

Eh? Maybe it was different in the West but in India everyone without washing machines would still have their clothes hand washed.

the climate is much hotter and more humid in india.

Even in northern india, where it's cold. Majority of the people still hand wash their clothes. Although not at the same frequency as southern people.

I spent a few months in northern India. Unless you mean way up in the Himalayas northern india is still a lot hotter and more humid than Europe and almost anywhere in North America.

There weren't man made fibres, so cotton or wool, silk if wealthy, was used for underwear. Trousers, jackets, dresses, and the rest were mostly wool. Many people only had two sets of outerwear - one of which was kept for outside work and for church: their "Sunday best". Dyes were often non-colour fast.

Wool and silk doesn't like being boiled or wrung, or even heavily agitated. Underwear didn't need to stay in shape, outerwear did. Cotton is far more tolerant of violent washing.

India's climate would, no doubt, see far less use of wool and multiple layers, far more of lighter weight cottons than Europe. Southern Europe probably somewhere in between. :)

Yeah, that makes sense. Wool also seems to have strong antimicrobial properties so it doesn't really need frequent cleaning.

> recommends sticking jeans in the freezer in order to kill germs instead

That's a myth, freezing jeans in a consumer fridge does not kill bacteria. For example, listeria can grow in both a refrigerator or a freezer.

Fortunately, the sun can kill bacteria, so take it outside and hang it to air.

You just want to kill the bacteria that cause smell, not necessarily sterilize your clothes.

Won’t work for more than the surface though I suppose if it gets hot enough...

Still turn inside out for at least a bit if using this strategy.

The UV from the sun is what kills them, it's also great for breaking down dye and fabrics. It is doubtful the UV will reach all the cracks and crevices.

Slightly tangential, but can anyone on HN tell me what particle at what energy is most effective for killing bacteria while leaving pants unharmed? Presumably bombarding your jeans with gamma rays would work, but can those of us without easy access to radioactive substances use a microwave instead?

Yes, a microwave is very efficient at killing germs, if not one of the best and most reliable solutions available to consumers. Just watch out carefully for things on your jeans (or clothes in general) that you shouldn't put into a microwave please, like buttons made of iron for example.

Microwaves have been shown to be an excellent way to sanitize sponges. Don’t see why they wouldn’t work for most clothing. You might have to get the clothing wet first since microwaves are most effective at heating water.

A rich heiress who has likely spent a lot of time on private jets in her lifetime is pretty low on the list of people Ill take climate change advice from.

It seems like there is a sense that environmental/climate problems affect everyone, including wealthy people, and her ideas sound reasonable, constructive and fair. An initiative to wash clothes in a way that causes less ecological damage could very well come from the fashion industry (as it may require new types of fabric etc.).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem

The opposite of the ad hominem also applies. Why is she eminently qualified to provide the correct answer to this particular problem?

Because she's a fashion designer and surely that's _one_ perspective worth considering with respect to pretty much anything related to clothes? Not only is she eminently qualified to talk about it from a fashion point of view, she probably has good practical experience with fabrics and wear and tear (longevity being one of the reasons she advises against it).

It's not like she's an actress telling people vaccines cause autism or something.

I'd take a word of a material engineer and chemical process engineer way over anything she has to say... Fashion is not really a credential. They make clothes, not break them.

Sure, as long as we are focussed on the issue and are mentally prepared to change our ways a little bit, if needed.

The problem is in the perspective.

Imagine a person with a very unhealthy lifestyle giving sound, correct, health advice.

While the advice itself is correct, the fact that this person lives a very unhealthy lifestyle shows that the root of the problem is somewhere else.

Ad hominem is about the logic of an argument. The parent said something quite precise - "[she] is pretty low on the list of people Ill take climate change advice from" - he didn't say that she's wrong.

I totally support that argument. There are surely plenty of people with a significantly lower global impact, that can give advice that is correspondingly more effective.

I'm looking forward to a consumer grade Supercritical Carbon Dioxide Dry cleaner. Dissolve out the oils trapped in your clothing, sterilize them and perhaps deposit the oils where they can be used as fuel. It would probably work for other items such as soiled machinery, oil extraction from herbs and food, etc.

Kickstarter? But yeah, a small-scale device you can have in a regular self-service laundromat would be great.

Please let's not let not washing your clothes become the trendy thing to do. Public transport can already smell bad enough. Just wash your clothes, keep smelling like flowers and pick something else to be different about.

Not saying people shouldn't wash their clothes, but that flower (or other) smell you seem to find pleasant isn't pleasant for everybody. Don't know why, genetically probably, but I really dislike most synthetic smells. It's also not just the smell but also the fact it's constantly there, sort of annoying me. I'd rather have people wash their clothes using water (lots of clothes don't seem dirty enough to really require soap, as far as I can tell) and then hang them outside to dry. Though I realize that is not an option for the majority of the population. But it would me nice if most of those products would smell less, or if at least people would use less. It's not because the marleting department of a product decides X is the right amount to advertise, that it's also what is really required,.

They don't need to wash with only water. The best solution would be to use perfume free products for people with Asthma. I don't have Asthma but I always buy products for sensitive skin with zero perfume and no colors.

Aren't we better off not using microfibre plastics to make clothes in the first place?

Yeah, I have been thinking that too. But something like cotton also has a big impact on the environment. I don’t have enough info to mske a meaningful comparison of impacts though. http://www.theworldcounts.com/counters/cotton_environmental_...

Cotton doesn't have the same lingering looking lasting effects.

It's all fine as long as your clothes are reused, even into rags. The very flexible microfibers probably are not a hazard on the level of microplastics.

Edit: they actually do pose this exact problem, though the filter in washing machine is supposed to catch all that. It doesn't.

The real problem is

There is NON BIODEGRADABLE plastic in everything!

Stop blaming the consumers. And start making plastic PRODUCERS pay the negative externalities. Make an international fund to freaking tax the polluters and redistribute to other countries to reward reforestation.

Same with carbon And everything else I am tired of plastic straw and bag BANS while plastics and fossil fuels are used every day.

You will see biodegradable plastics appear faster than you can say “progress”.

It’s like Andrew Yang’s idea to tax the gun makers for each gun death.

I haven't used a conventional laundry machine in about a year. The way I clean things, everything looks brand new, the microplastics are captured, and stuff is smelling good.

At first, I just used a 5 gallon bucket from Home Depot, put some clothes in there, hot water, added All Free & Clear + Clorox2 Stain Remover and Color Booster, then shook about 100 times.

More recently I use one of those hand-crank-turned contraptions* that rotates on a stand (multiple are available from Amazon).

> But most importantly - never, ever, tumble dry.

When its time to dry things, I just hang them up on a drying rack and let them drip into a caserole pan.

When the dripping is done (roughly 45 minutes) I re-arrange them for best ventilation and point a small fan towards them, almost everything is dry within 2 hours.

You can use a GuppyFriend micropastic bag to catch the microplastics.

What got me wondering the most is that the dyes often come out of the fabrics, When you hand wash things its a bit more obvious. I wonder what their eventual fate is.

* none of these are really that great, lots of room for improvement here.

You don't rinse?

Sounds itchy.

I think we should be teaching how to care about the clothing properly kids in school. I have learned it myself and I am sure I am doing it completely wrong.

Unfortunately, various industries don't really want you to know. They want to sell you more stuff.

> Instead, she says, the "rule" is to "let the dirt dry and you brush it off".

So her point is that people should just get used to wearing "dirty" clothes. I think a better first start is to recalibrate what people mean by "dirty". Most people I know (and certainly myself in the past) would usually wash many clothes (shirts especially) after a single wear regardless of whether they needed it. Now I only wash my clothes when they need it (which means there is some stain or it smells).

Of course maybe we should get used to wearing clothes that are visibly dirty, but there seem to be lower hanging fruit.

It's sad that the myth of freezers killing germs is still a thing. I wonder how many deaths (or at least general "health incidents") per year are a consequence of this. The fact it's from BBC and they quote _someone_ that's apparently a professor (they don't even mention the profession, just some "head of fashion design curse", whatever that means ...) will make many more people believe such false claims and spread the myth and the implicated problems it brings even further.

>Instead, she says, the "rule" is to "let the dirt dry and you brush it off".

A privilege reserved for people who live in areas that never need air conditioning. On the handful of occasions I've been forced by necessity to wear the same pair of jeans for multiple days the dried salt buildup is enough to draw blood by abrading my thighs.

Then again I don't wear anything but 100% cotton so I'm not the audience she has in mind either.

Why do you wear jeans in hot weather?

Briars. Insects. Safety regulations. And despite the many catcalls from attractive women my fashion advisor says the boots and jorts look is just so two-thousand-and-late.

“Areas that never need air conditioning” covers most of the Uk, and with a slight tweak to the wording you could cover all of it - and the UK is the BBC’s target market.

(I’ve never felt the need to wash jeans more when working in air conditioned UK offices. Maybe it’s the humidity.)

The main problem described as modern clothing releases microfibers during washing. Why not just move to natural fiber as humans did for centuries?

People like stretchy fabrics which can’t be made durable without synthetic fibers. Also cotton sucks to work out in, synthetics let sweat evaporate much more effectively.

Well, people like to smoke, drink and eat junk food. We have to to see beyond our liking at some point. To have a set of synthetics for a workout is not the same to have all synthetic clothing. And even on this, I would argue that while handling sweat better still it affects your skin.

The solution is to wear something tougher than polyester. Polyamides and nylon are much more resilient and should not get damaged by washing.

Do these people not sweat?

I don't think the ultra rich really do break a sweat except when wearing their lulu lemon exercise gear. I doubt their clothes get muddy or stained very often. They probably have so many clothes that not wearing something for a month is not a hardship. Most likely, their maid is covertly washing their clothes.

I now have two Turms t-shirts worth equivalent of 10 USD with both hydrophobic and antibacterial properties. They don't feel dirty even after sweating in them a few days. I'm determined to test them for 20 or more wears. But I wonder if they are counterproductive for the environment with the coatings.

Can we not just install better filters in our water treatment facilities?

Oh good, I finally have a justification for my behavior.

Reply on news.ycombinator.com