Only if we're also collectively telling people not to take them in the first place. The current culture telling everyone to go to expensive private colleges, then bitching that they're burdened with loans and not pay them, is pretty toxic.
Its should be a multi step thing. - Tell people how bad student loans are and how they shouldn't take them if they don't have a plan to pay them back.
- Educate people on alternative, like trade schools, apprenticeships, etc. Stop glorifying bachelor degrees beyond what they are (that should and often happens even in countries where education is paid by the gov!)
- Then, yeah, start doing something to reduce debt burden on those who were affected before the previous two steps were in place.
Otherwise, if we keep pushing for school loans but then tell people not to pay them, or forgive them, it's basically free education (a good thing) without actually collectively agreeing on making education free (which is kind of sketchy)
But my point wasn't really to pick out just student loans. Not just due to people being burdened with student loans but a wide variety of other issues... We're more and more seeing people who hope to be able to save their own lives with GoFundMe campaigns because they can't afford to stay alive. We're seeing the idea of owning a home fade for giant swaths of the population. One third of the country is currently "subprime" in the eyes of financial institutions. And my understanding is that percentage is expected go up. The Dollar Store's massive growth is predicated on the forecast of "a permanent underclass in America". I'm seeing, hearing, and reading about so many people having a hard time every single day. And I'm reading about the country readjusting to accommodate the situation as a permanent reality. If the institutions cannot help, then I do think it's probably reasonable for the people to force the issue, given how prevalent we are seeing these problems become.
Only semi related, but I also take issue about how we got there in the first place.
"Lets make college free!" "No, this is AMERICAH!~ People should pay for things!" "Ok, then lets give out loans! Gov will insure them, so its win win! People get to go to college but it doesnt cost anything!" "Ok, lets do that!" "Waaaah! People can't pay back, lets forgive their loan" "Err, wait a minute...didn't we say they were gonna be loan exactly so it wouldn't end up with the gov paying for it?"
Its even worse than if it had just been made free straight up, since infinite loans basically made education prices skyrocket mostly unchecked. This bullshit happens everywhere in the US (see: healthcare). And this is the worse of all world: you have "free market" problems, unbound pricing problems, AND the government picks up the tab. Fail on all counts.
But that's a different issue. For now, yes, lets do something about all the people who are fucked, BUT AT THE SAME TIME lets tackle the root cause.
Just thinking out loud; I suspect looking at other countries who do this would be informative...
Thats why apprenticeships and trade schools need better marketing. The glorification of bachelor degrees is toxic.
"Everyone" doesn't go to expensive private colleges. Of those who continue on from high-school at all, 75% attend a publicly owned institution, usually community college.
When I was in high school, being railroaded into prioritizing CSU or UC admission requirements over graduation requirements was the norm even for students (like me) who had effectively zero chance of getting into one of those schools immediately after high school (let alone getting a scholarship or meaningful financial aid or any other way to avoid a predatory student loan).
They are publicly owned, and can be made affordable by legislatures without interfering in private organizations.
These values aren't pushed by the same people.
The people telling everyone to go to college and take out the loans are the people enriched by the status quo.
The people telling everyone that this is bullshit are the ones who aren't. The people saying the latter are specifically trying to counter the former. There's no single monoculture that's pushing both ideas at the same time.
And pushing debt forgiveness as a policy to support is a pretty good step, in my mind, towards changing the incentives for the folks who are pushing and profiting the loans...
Stop federally backing loans, change the culture to move away from defacto bachelor's degree, and reign in the absurd admissions for public universities. It is not morally justifiable to suddenly foist the collective horrible decision making of a generation onto the larger society.
If we're really at the point where people are incapable of providing real market value to society, we need to talk about UBI. What we shouldn't be talking about is financially incentivizing behavior that is not desirable.
So we should just continue burdening people into the poorhouse (or worse)? I feel for everyone burdened by ridiculous student loans (I am one of those people), but I would gladly take on everyone else’s debt forever if it meant people could have their education and be debt-free. Should we talk about my friends who have to decide if they pay their rent or their student loans every month? Does your righteous indignation do anything to help them? “I suffered so you have to suffer too” is toxic; it’s basically frat hazing.
As for why it’s okay to take out a ruinous loan, I was 17, and I didn’t fucking know any better. Everyone told us to go to college or else we’d wind up destitute. And they were partially right, at least if you managed to get a “profitable” degree. My high school-educated friends have shitty service jobs and alcohol addiction now. I have loans, and I’d rather not, but at least I have any hope for a future. That’s more than I can say for a lot of my other friends.
> It is not morally justifiable to suddenly foist the collective horrible decision making of a generation onto the larger society.
That would be the Baby Boomers, right? Because I’m pretty sure they (and their parents) are the ones who all voted to end state funding for universities. They also voted for politicians with ties to the financial industry, so conveniently the same people making it necessary to take out loans are also shareholders of large financial institutions.
No, what’s morally indefensible is bankrupting someone for getting an education, and then berating them for making a bad decision when they were 17, a decision practically guaranteed by a rigged system. What’s also morally indefensible are the attitudes that this is someone their faults, because at the end of the day, we all still have student loans, and no amount of your pedestal-sitting is going to change that.
They certainly don't take zero blame, especially if it happened in the last decade. The student debt crisis has been front and center for a while now. If in the last few years someone did that, and they don't know any better, they're seriously living under a rock.
The system should change, and Im not even against forgiving debts because it might just be straight up better to do for society, but saying the people who take on those loans and sign at the bottom have zero responsibility? They turn 18 long before they're completely crushed with the debts, and if I was to tell an 18 years old that they can't make decisions they're responsible for, I'd get an earful.
Now. I personally didn’t listen properly, dropped out after two years and did something else. But I don’t blame those who didn’t. Everything in modern middle class society and schooling was based around it.
So focusing on the individuals responsibility above and beyond that of the broken system that we have no choice but to join seems, well, cruel to me — even if I did personally follow your advice.
A 3,500 sq ft house with granite countertops and hardwood flooring for 4 people should probably not be average either.
With the exception of a few markets with very expensive land, we have a consumption problem. We have a keeping up with the Jones problem.
You don't have nearly as much worry about losing your home if you spend below your means.
Sure, the keeping up with the Jones thing is happening with a lot of people. But that does not appear to be the bulk of the problem. Heck, just drive through the country and tell me if you spot more McMansions or more McShacks.
But there are other criteria as well.
* The roads are long, winding, and poorly connected (so walking distances are excessive). This leads to ridiculous scenarios like https://usa.streetsblog.org/2013/02/28/sprawl-madness-two-ho...
* The stores are generally large big-box stores that is often kilometers from ones' house; there are no small corner shops and restaurants, because they are illegal.
* If you're still determined to walk, you probably need to cross large, high-speed roads with short crossing times, and your origin and destination are probably separated from the road by a large parking lot. And you may not even have sidewalks or crossing facilities. Example: https://www.google.com/maps/dir/Panera+Bread,+143+Alexander+...
* Public transit in American suburbs is a joke. Because it's so hard to walk around, ridership is very low, making frequency hard to justify, causing even lower ridership. And this is before you consider that
Americans are anti-tax
American suburbs have an associated history with white flight post-segregation, so people often object to transit because it'll let "criminals" in
So you wind up with situations like this Detroit man who walked 21 miles every day because he didn't have a car. https://www.freep.com/story/news/local/michigan/oakland/2015...
"Just don't buy expensive shit" isn't an option when rent is increasing faster than wages.
there are certainly a lot of people out there who would be feeling the squeeze anywhere, but if you're making six figures and you're in danger of losing your home, you are probably doing something wrong. your house is too big, you live in the wrong place, or both.
right now I'm living pretty comfortably spending <$30k a year. I understand salaries and COL vary in different places, but most people who make six figures in an expensive area could certainly take a more humble job in a less expensive region and live a fine life.
Second you don’t want to pay it to spend the money one what life essentials
Third no one made you borrow no one made you enroll, you had a lot of other options accepting responsibility for your choice is a good thing
Lastly whom would you like to pay for your pick of university and your pick of courses
Unreasonable price inflation combined with a sense of necessity or even physical necessity (health care) exists elsewhere in our economy as well. You can argue that our current political situation is due largely to people who are mad as hell over their life being impacted negatively by these things.
As for what life essentials they'll spend the money on, well, we can ask the burgeoning van dwellers movement (people who live in their cars) as well as those people who are running GoFundMe campaigns so they can afford medicine or a medical procedure. You can ask people who are moving out of the country because they can afford a better life in places like India (I just read about this the other day). You can ask the people who just marched to Canada to buy insulin at a reasonable price.
The cost of home is largely the right to live in a certain location and have timely access to certain places. That's what everyone wants. No only walls but clean water, air, safety, culture, groceries, jobs, parks, entertainments, infrastructure, government protection, good schools, and so on. There are probably thousand little things that make the cost of a home, all of which are highly desirable everyone.
In the end, it always comes down to (some degree of) personal responsibility. Just because the government (or your job, or your family, or some guy you met on the street) offers you a new and novel way of ruining your life, it doesn't mean you have to take it. If the choice is pay your student loans and keep your credit score, or pay your rent and avoid being homeless, well, that's a terrible choice to have to make, but the answer is obvious, and the manner by which someone ended up in that situation is also pretty obvious.
Personal responsibility matters for sure. And to have freedom we have to allow personal responsibility rather than try and protect everyone from everything. But if someone comes up with a clever way to put a massive number of people in debt by leveraging common human failings, to the point that it threatens their ability to have shelter, do we not do something about it rather than allowing that clever someone to just become king (metaphorical)? Not to mention, wouldn't we want to head off both the growing apathy by some and the growing anger by others towards the rest of us lest it eventually threaten the country itself and its character?
18-year-olds are not "Actual children".
> taking on huge burdens with little to no guidance
I don't know if this is still the case but when I took out student loans nearly two decades ago I had to go through "entrance counseling" and "exit counseling", explaining very clearly and meticulously what I was getting myself into.
That entrance and exit loan counseling is a privilege for sure. I just graduated from a top 25 ranked private school and was never given loan counseling, and none of my peers were either. Thankfully I picked a high paying field, succeeded in it, and had parents with a ton of financial knowledge to help me effectively plan how to pay for it all, but the vast majority of my peers had no such luck on those three fronts. It’s especially telling that you went to school two decades ago, as no one going to school right now legitimately thinks the college student loan process is clearly presented in terms that are easy for the AVERAGE 18 year old to understand. Meanwhile, the costs have gone up...I don’t know, at least 100% since you went to school? Shit, tuition went up 4 grand while I was still in school.
I went to university nearly 30 years ago, and I didn't take out any loans the first few years. I did the last year, and even then I didn't think the process was remotely understandable. I remember getting a check and there was a pretty hefty fee that had been taken out, reducing my net by a moderate percentage. I couldn't find any good explanation of this, nor anyone at the school who could explain it.
I had no 'entrance' and 'exit' loan counseling.
Entrance/exit counseling is required for any federal student loan. Perhaps your loans weren’t federal?
> Meanwhile, the costs have gone up...I don’t know, at least 100% since you went to school? Shit, tuition went up 4 grand while I was still in school.
UCLA, one of the top schools in the world, costs $13k in tuition for the year for residents. Think about that, a world-class education for a little more than $1k/month.
As for your last point, I'm not sure how that matters? By my count, 14 of the top 25 universities globally are American private institutions. Not all of us were lucky enough to be raised in states with the caliber of public universities of California, and for us, the chance at a better life was one of those top private universities. That was a dream sold to me by the educational system my entire primary and secondary school life, and while it did work out for me, it's not working for thousands of young people and needs to be changed.
It's just a lot less fun than going to a Big 10 school or the big name school.
Emergency room: $5,000 ECG: $300 Radiology: $600 Laboratory: $750
And maybe you just went in with chest pain from asthma where they took some quick labs and an x-ray, sent you home after breathing treatment and no prescriptions for anything, and now you have a $7,000+ bill after spending 13 hours in the ER. Most of that time was spent sitting around staring at a wall.
The debt-owners can hire much more expensive lawyers than you can. The debt-owners have gotten you to sign a contract that says any disputes will be handled by an arbitration bureau, in person, in a state where the laws are most in their favor.
The debt-owners have the cops on their side.
What are you doing about this? Who do you vote for, who do you give money to? Both in terms of political or charitable donations and in terms of who your landlord's giving money to, what the entertainment corporations you patronize are giving money to, etc.
(Not just you: everyone who agrees with this. Including me. I know I'm sure not dropping everything to fight the creeping economic injustice that's burning the Earth alive and concentrating more and more money in the hands of fewer and fewer people.)
Doesn't seem to match up with
"Did we forget somewhere along the line that a home is just a patch of dirt with four walls and roof thrown on it"
I guess these people aren't struggling to afford a hut on a patch of dirt. I also guess you aren't condemning the majority of people you know as spendthrifts. So how are you reconciling the 2?
Or taxes, when they are being used to recklessly loan so much money.
What will happen is that some very unpleasant men will come by and take things from you until you have paid it off or are so miserable you will start paying again. These guys are essentially paid to take things from you, so it's not like they'll stop either.
I think what you don't understand is how math works.