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I’m not sure why you couldn’t do the same with the Fn keys instead.

What you’d lose in being able to look down and see what a key does at the moment, you’d gain in having more tactile response allowing for easier pressing without looking.

Also, when I find an inscrutable keyboard shortcut I use frequently, I simply remap it. There are enough KB shortcut combos possible that running out of keyboard shortcuts is rarely an issue. And bonus, you can touch type those shortcuts in.

That's a good point, and I did do exactly that in the pre-Touch Bar days as I had no use for most of the "media keys."

What the Touch Bar gives me is context sensitivity, different suites of commands on a per-app basis. Evidently I'm just lacking the mental agility of remembering that F2 is "open responsive desktop mode" in Safari and "clean build cache" in Xcode.

As for the arguments of touch-typists here, I'm a touch typist and don't look at the keyboard either, but the idea behind the Touch Bar is that it's just within visual range of the screen. Bumping it half a centimeter higher would make it even more so.

But why encourage people to look down when typing anything?

Basically everyone learns to type without looking at some point which is the ideal zone you want users in (a one-to-one connection with the machine, eyes straight, hands down).

Context switching the UI in a computer interface, often randomly depending on the app, while requiring the user to look down to use it is terrible UX. This whole technology screams ‘because we can’ (aka there was space to do it) rather than developers needed help with anything.

The worst part was including Escape key into it, which is where most of the complaints come from as it’s a critical part of modern OS and browser interfaces - not just vim/emacs.

By including the escape key it went from a voluntary / side interface for certain use-cases (complex music, photo, or editing apps for example) to becoming part of the primary keyboard/HCI itself which is where it crossed the line from a mediocre idea into a bad idea.

Also, Touch Bar is located above keyboard, so your own hands obscure the view. It would make much more sense to put lcd display in place of touchpad, like Razer did in their concept laptop[1], or Asus in theirs [2].

[1] https://www.theverge.com/circuitbreaker/2018/1/9/16866206/ra...

[2] https://www.engadget.com/2018/06/05/asus-zenbook-pro-15-scre...

Why label literally any button? Just number them all, and if a pilot can't remember that button F81 means "gear down" well that's user error.

Hitting a function button is not "typing" in any real sense anyway, use being so relatively infrequent. Can you really hit F8 consistently, without looking?

Maybe the doctrinaire solution would be to delete the function keys, if "thou shalt not look at keys" is the ultimate commandment. But that's incompatible with legacy needs.

Back in the pre-GUI days when use of the function keys was far more prevalent, software would sometimes ship with cardboard overlays to indicate which key did what action. The touchbar is bringing that old idea into the 21st century.

I would have preferred they scaled it back and include physical Esc and power keys on either side, but in other ways it presents a real improvement in computing UX which is too rare these days.

F8 is right next to F9, which is super important for loading autosaves in Bethesda Softworks' games, so thats a big affirmative over here.

The main question was can you hit F8 without looking? Assuming your point was you can because you've become familiar with hitting F9 on a keyboard from your experience with Bethesda games, a better question would be: can you hit the F8 key without looking on a MacBook Pro (without Touch Bar), the laptop in question with an OS that doesn't play Bethesda games?

Damn, you are too good. I don't think I could.

I think the fn keys are the only ones I havent memorized - because I havent needed to for any applications.

If I played a game requiring something like that I'd learn it quick.

I previously bought an all-black mech keyboard with no key labels which looked sleek but I didn't like it, swaped the keycaps out two days later. Switching to a new keyboard is probably a good time to keep them until you get used to it!

I'm a touch typist, but never used the F keys enough to not have to look down. I think a lot of the TB hate is because the ESC key was removed and people just don't like change.

I've used Macbook Pros with the same keyboard for years and can reliably hit the volume buttons, display brightness, keyboard brightness, etc. without looking.

But that’s a solved problem. It’s a toolbar. It’s way more flexible, and you don’t need to look away from the screen, and your hands stay in their normal typing/tracking position.

The touchbar is basically a toolbar that Apple has moved to the least accessible part of the entire laptop.

I am a touch typist. I never look down at the keyboard, ever. The only time the Touch Bar is involved is when I accidentally switch tabs because the Touch Bar buttons trip even while you're pressing the 2 or 3 key on the keyboard, and then I'm lost in a different tab than the one I was working on in the first place.

Is there a preset that never shows anything on the touch bar, ever, except for the Escape key and the "global" brightness/volume buttons? Can this be done in, like, five seconds?

If not, then I might Frisbee this computer straight out the window. If so, I would love to know how.

Yes, his is how I have mine, roughly (I kept the playback controls for spotify)

Prefernces > Keyboard > Customize control strip (bottom of first tab)

There's a strange GUI for like dragging stuff in and out... I don't remember how it works exactly..

but it is very close to 5 seconds.

System Preferences > Keyboard > Customize Touch Bar (at bottom). Drag off buttons you don't want, drag on buttons you do.

Not 5 seconds, but probably less than a minute.

This works for "global" buttons but VSCode, Firefox, etc. put their junk on their anyway. I want all of it gone. Some applications so conveniently let you turn them off (VSCode is one of them, now that I've looked)--it's absolutely ridiculous that I have to do it for every application and I want it all to GTFO, globally. How does one do that?

EDIT: So I found it - if, in the Keyboard preferences pane, you pick "Expanded Control Strip" instead of "App Controls", apps can't awfulify the touch bar. I now have haptically null touch points that do what I expect a Mac's top row to do, which is worse than having keys that do what I expect a Mac's top row to do, but it isn't as bad as it was at the start of the day.

I can't type on the keyboard without accidentally triggering the Touch Bar. I really wanted to hack it, but wow is it annoying. I have to relearn typing because of it.

If there was a small gap between the top of the physical keyboard and the touch bar, that might be enough to prevent false taps. Or I have to hack the Touch Bar to figure out where I'm accidentally hitting it, and don't put any buttons there.

I'm also triggering false taps on the Touch Pad, which never used to happen. I suspect if there was another gap between the bottom of the physical keyboard and the top of the Touch Pad, this wouldn't happen.

I don't get this - wouldn't you just accidentally press the F-keys if the touch bar wasn't there?

Also, when my fingers are on home row, I can't even reach the touch bar without overextending/completely flattening my hand, which is hard to accidentally do while typing (and I have larger than normal hands).

The Touch Bar is very sensitive and picks up accidental touches. F-keys require pressing down.

Personally, I tend to unconciously rest my hands spread out over the keyboard when I'm not typing. My thumbs are down by the space bar, and my fingers on top of the Touch Bar.

Exactly this. Didn't even realize I did this until I spent 5 minutes trying to log in to my new MacBook while the user name/password fields kept resetting -- I was accidentally brushing the escape button.

No, it takes less pressure to active the touch bar than physical keys.

I'm in this exact situation. I've been using this newer Macbook Pro with a touch bar and the larger more sensitive touch pad and it's been a huge hassle. I believe it's related to how people type but I've been typing this way for 30 years and it's not going to change now because of one device deciding to do things differently. I'm not even that picky about keyboards, give me a $20 cheap logitech keyboard every day over this crap.

I touch type therefore don't look at my hands while using a Mac. It doesn't matter how much I can hack/mod a screen I simply am not looking at, because it distracts from the screen I am looking at. I'd find a customizable "touch bar" below the dock I can use with my mouse more useful than where it is currently located.

I think the Touch Bar is an interesting tool with plenty of potential. My objection is that I'm forced to forego physical function keys to get it. When I'm stepping through code, I want physical keys with tactile feedback.

I would be thrilled if Apple offered an alternate "developer's configuration" with a row of physical function keys and a Touch Bar above it. There is plenty if room; they'd only need to shrink the almost comically oversized touchpad (which would still be plenty large).

I think this configuration would have made the most sense as a first version of the feature in general. Let people get used to having it above the function keys, and find uses for it. If it's a well-received feature, maybe maybe at some point in the future move it down and replace the function keys.

Maybe it depends on how you type and rest your hand over the keyboard. For me I've had a macbook pro with touch bar for the last 6+ months and it hasn't gotten better at all. But in all honesty it's not just the touch bar, it's also the extra sensitive touchpad. For example you may notice extra spaces int his message or spaces in the middle of the words, that because of the touch pad, I think (I can't even be sure of what's going on but I've never had any typing issues like this in the past 30+ years since I've been using computers, starting with really crappy non-PC 8 bit computer keyboards all the way to fancy gamer keyboards).

It's not getting better over time, it's forcing me to constantly have to correct my spelling so now I just keep typing at a minimum on this computer and I'm waiting to get rid of this crappy device at the earliest possibility.

I also had a lot of trouble with my work-supplied 2017 MBP. I found the touchbar completely useless and never got used to it. It would randomly experience crashes or lags, a problem I never had with the old function keys when I changed the brightness, altered the keyboard backlight, or modified the volume. Even worse, the keys seemed to be laid out in a way that my touch typing couldn't adapt to -- every time I worked off of that keyboard, I would make constant typos and type significantly slower than on any other keyboard I've ever used. Switched back to a 2015 and I couldn't be happier. Battery life is better, too.

I also received a touchbar Mac for work and within a week handed it back in exchange for a slightly older Mac without one. I realized I need a physical escape key. Getting the buttons back felt like an upgrade.

If they added the bar above the f-row everyone would love it. As it is they fucked up a lot of workflows.

Caps Lock is already mapped to Control.

Same here. But I've used https://github.com/tekezo/Karabiner-Elements to map the key under touch bar's esc to esc.

I've also used the same program to disable touch bar esc. This way there are no accidental presses. I did it by mapping esc to 'vk_none' for the 'no product name' device, which is how Karabiner sees touch bar.

I still dislike the keyboard because of its failure rate, but the layout is ok for me now.

I also have Caps Lock mapped to Command (Ctrl). And since my biggest use of the Esc key is when using Vim, I simply press Caps Lock + [ ( Ctrl + [ ) to switch to Normal Mode. So only my right pinky leaves the home row.

I have the MBP "Escape" (without the Touch Bar), but if I did have the Touch Bar this would avoid 90% of the issues involving not having a hardware Esc key for me.

I don't mind the touch bar, I don't get why they couldn't of kept the old keyboard which was more reliable and the Function Keys.

I'm writing this on a MBP purchased earlier this year that has nothing but room for both with it's oversized trackpad that is nothing but a waste of space to me. I get more out of a trackball personally, but even if I am exclusively using the trackpad, I don't need all this wasted space, it is even bigger than my phone.

I like physical keys, I can get used to them and never have to look down to use them. You cannot deliver the same experience with a touch-anything (at least not in 2019).

I think 'hacker' is too generic. Fiddling with the OS is just one form of hacking. Not every hacker enjoys doing that. One aspect of hacking the OS is dealing with the breakage when you end up with a system state that isn't part of some devs text matrix. I think a 'Pro' or 'Workstation' or similar badge should mean that the system is conservative from a UX standpoint, and delivers on performance and reliability. Maybe Apples gamble was that this new UX would cause a revolution in productivity.

I'm with you. BetterTouchTool introduced me to some pretty cool possibilities with the Touch Bar and it's just been even more awesome as I've customized it more. On top of that, it motivated me, for some reason, to try and get DooM running on it just for shits and giggles even though it's mostly unplayable.

Or... Just get a damn touchscreen and use existing tools

I applaud this sentiment.

I use emacs reasonably often and I reached out to Mitsuharu Yamamoto about touchbar support in emacs and sadly never heard back.

The ability to bind arbitrary emacs functions to the touchbar, programmatically, would be a killer feature.

Quoting the Emacs web site:

"To improve the use of proprietary systems is a misguided goal. Our aim, rather, is to eliminate them. We include support for some proprietary systems in GNU Emacs in the hope that running Emacs on them will give users a taste of freedom and thus lead them to free themselves."

Not sure what point you're trying to make, but the person I contacted maintains a mac-specific port of emacs which adds nice features that GNU emacs lacks and won't add because of politics.

So I'm not concerned about GNU zealotry and how it relates to the touchbar.

I was making the point that this would never get to Emacs mainline. But sure, no reason why it couldn't end up in a fork, but the fork is not going to give you the same "taste of freedom" ;)

If I wanted less functionality in exchange for more freedom I'd run Hurd ;) Emacs isn't any less free with touchbar support.

There are two huge low-hanging fruit that Apple could do to make the Touch Bar better and appease (some of) the haters.

First, add half a centimeter of clearance between the touch bar and the number keys. I've never once accidentally hit the Touch Bar, but one of my close coworkers does all the time, after years with this, so I can't deny that it's an issue.

Second, allow users the ability to map any keyboard shortcut or menu item to a Touch Bar button. This would work similarly to how any menu item can be mapped to a keyboard shortcut in the System Preferences.

The bigger and most immediate thing they can do is put a physical Escape key back on. It would violate their Holy Symmetry or whatever, but it'd fix the number-one problem with the thing.

The idea of shifting it up a little is a good one. But at that point they might as well shift it even more and put back the hardware function keys, too. I don't think they can move it without effectively conceding that it's not the winning solution that they want to position it as.

If they added it _but also didn't steal the fn row_, I'd be all for it. But losing known, solid functionality for the opportunity to maybe hack together something useful is not a fair trade.

> map your Caps Lock key to Escape

Then where will I map my ctrl key? Apple stupidly put the fn key in the corner and i can't map ctrl to it.

Karabiner can map it to Esc on its own, but to Ctrl if you combine it with another key. Best of both worlds.