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Comment by mikestew | Hacker News Reader

I just got through adding outlets and lights in the garage this weekend, but I’m otherwise kind of a dumbass about such things. Should I have to choose, though, I’d go 240V at 60hz. 240V so my coffee water heats faster than the 120V we get in the US, 60hz just because you gotta choose a number, and 60hz makes for good wall clocks.

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After a recent power outage, we found that a seemingly random selection of sockets and lights had become prone to intermittent glitches. By popping one circuit breaker at a time, I realized that these circuits coincided with breakers on the right side of the box. From this, I found out what is apparently a common pattern: we have two 120V out-of-phase incoming lines together with a grounded neutral that is presumably the center tap on the secondary winding of the local transformer. Between them the two live lines give 240V, which is used by the AC unit.

Unfortunately, while you may have the voltage for a faster coffee maker, you may not have the wiring in your kitchen and I don't suppose you can find a UL-approved coffee-maker for that set-up, which has two live wires (though maybe they are made for restaurant and institutional kitchens?)

I have the necessary wiring in my kitchen already. The volts went up, not the amps. I believe you’re assuming that I’m running a US dryer plug or something. No, the question was “which standard?” The assumption being that in this hypothetical world my appliances get upgraded, too. IOW, I wake up and I’ve got European 220V at 60hz with US plugs.

> I realized that these circuits coincided with breakers on the right side of the box. From this, I found out what is apparently a common pattern: we have two 120V out-of-phase incoming lines together with a grounded neutral that is presumably the center tap on the secondary winding of the local transformer.

That's exactly right... this sort of split phase approach is common, at least in the US. Larger consumers can have 240V available to them and everything else is 120V. (Larger consumers can mean things like ovens, ranges, wall AC's, normal AC's, larger shop tools... the list goes on and on.)

Split-phase also has a couple interesting failure modes. A few years ago, we had a case where a 120V heater would cause fans in other parts of the house to speed up when it switched on. What was happening was that the neutral wasn't fully grounded, so when the heater switched on one phase, it pulled the neutral's voltage in a way that caused the other phase's voltage to go up. Once the electrician figured that one out, it was fixed with the quickness. (Not safe or good for electronics at all.)

What's doubly fun are multiwire branch circuits. Basically, instead of splitting the 240 V into 120 V at the breaker box, you take a 240 V branch circuit and split it into two somewhere down the line. This has two advantages: first, you need fewer wires going all the way to the breaker box; second, resistive loads on opposite legs of the circuit cancel each other out on the neutral, so you can (in theory) run 30 A worth of stuff off a single run of 14-gauge 4-wire Romex (= cheaper).

Anyways, where the fun comes in, is if for some reason the neutral gets disconnected before the branch split. You now are effectively running the appliances on one branch in series with those on the other. Depending on the particular appliances involved, this means you could see up to 240 V on one leg of the circuit. This is, of course, very bad.

I lived in a place where the ceiling light would only turn on if one of the stove plates were on. If I recall correctly, the stove plate would not get hot in that setting.

If you want to get a visit from the power company as urgently as possible, just call them and say the phrase "floating neutral" (of course, they'll be mad at you if it's not true).

Our neighbor's (poorly-attached) service mast came down a few weeks ago, causing a short that burned out the shared wires that connect both them and us to the transformer. After the initial event (complete with loud pops, sparks, flames...), our power actually came back on; but I insisted on keeping our main breakers turned off until the power company made their repairs. Turned out to be a wise move, as we indeed had a floating neutral.

In a theater I worked at, I discovered that one outlet was accidentally built using the two live wires instead of neutral and hot. Unfortunately, I discovered it while testing a lighting instrument, promptly blowing out its $30 lamp. (And like a proper scientist, checked to see if it did that every time, blowing out another $30 lamp.)

Once I stopped destroying expensive equipment, it did amazing things for my circular saw. (Probably not good for that, either, and fortunately we promptly moved out.)

>By popping one circuit breaker at a time, I realized that these circuits coincided with breakers on the right side of the box.

I hope you got this checked out! There could be something wrong with the phase going to those breakers (if your box is of the kind that has phases split by side which I am unfamiliar with).

Volts make no difference to heating your coffee. That is all about watts which is mathematically volts times amps. Lower voltage, higher amps for the same time to heat your coffee.

The higher amps trips the circuit breaker. If you don’t think a difference in voltage determines one’s tea water heating time, check the wattage rating on a kettle sold in the US (120V) and one from the UK (240V).

In practice, you run up against the current limitation of your home's wiring.

V*A means you can vary V or A and get a higher wattage. So, you contradict yourself :)

W can be constant, in which case there is no contradiction. Of course then V=IR means I need to change R as well. However this is all math. You can choose to hold any one factor constant and change the others to fix your needs.

In the real world V is a constant outside your control (120 in the US, 220 elsewhere), and A is limited by local wiring conventions (which means realistically the amount of watts you can get is different - but this is not a factor of voltage). The only factor you can change is R, which turns out to be easy enough (in this application).

P=I²R, so decreasing voltage and increasing current means increasing resistive losses (in cabling etc) quadratically.

That is insignificant as the cables are over sized and codes account for this to ensure they are.

That isn't to say you are wrong, just that it doesn't matter.

You can't improve R because it's already the maximum that the circuit can handle.

A is in practice the same across regions.

V is the only factor that ends up mattering.

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