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Comment by ebg13 | Hacker News Reader

I love how it's 2019 and installing Debian still requires a PhD in forensic psychology to find the download link.

I think that says more about the attention span of people in 2019 than anything else... below the announcement and description of "what's changed" there is this:

The installation images may be downloaded right now via bittorrent (the recommended method), jigdo, or HTTP; see Debian on CDs for further information.

You need the Debian Gotham Needs: https://fiendish.github.io/The-Debian-Gotham-Needs

>ALMOST CERTAINLY THIS ONE

>(x64 testing + non-free firmware)

why testing?

Presumably because it's the most pleasant of the options to actually use, not obsolete and not chaotic.

And without security backports...

Yes, all of the options are bad. Testing is the option that seems least bad for most people.

If you go to the front page https://www.debian.org/ the download link is in right part of the giant banner. Where can I collect my PhD?

to be fair that is the free version and a majority of end users will likely need non-free versions with driver support for wi-fi and such, with is relatively annoying to find.

What? There is no such thing as 'non-free' Debian. The Debian repositories do contain the 'non-free' section which is used to deliver non-free firmware among other things.

There are unofficial "non-free" Debian images (both install and live) that contain said non-free firmware, though. And though they're 'unofficial', they may be needed to enable even fairly baseline features on recent hardware.

Then what’s this?

http://cdimage.debian.org/cdimage/unofficial/non-free/cd-inc...

Those images are unofficial so no wonder they're hard to find.

I would not trust any unofficial installer. Luckily many problems can be solved with a USB-Ethernet adapter and later configuration of the systen, since the issue usually lies in exotic network hardware.

Really? What about the "Download Debian 10.0" link in the top right of the home page? Or "The latest stable release of Debian is 10.0" down near the fold? There's also the "Getting Debian" link at the head of one of the columns right in the middle of the page.

None of those are actually download links. Keep digging. Go past the definition of "free", turn left at the difference between a USB stick and a flexible USB stick, and then the third door from the end of the hall across from the one marked JIGDO MIPSEL will take you into a dark closet filled with laundry and checksums. It may as well be root/.workspace/.garbage.

The "Download Debian 10.0" is a direct link to the ISO.

Which is not the first link one sees for "Getting Debian" on the left-justified front page. In fact the first link one sees for "Getting Debian" is called "Getting Debian", and it takes you into the upside down.

So in order to use your link, first you need to be lucky or wired (because that download doesn't include the wifi firmware that most people will need for the install), and then you need to either already know where not to go or spend time digging around and backtracking.

I agree that the links are there on the front page, but the page as a whole is so busy that they’re hard to spot!

I think the OP is right that the Debian homepage could probably do with some simplification - there’s nothing wrong with having all these options available, but most people are just going to want a CD image they can write to a USB stick these days.

2.4. Installation Media

    2.4.1. CD-ROM/DVD-ROM/BD-ROM
    2.4.2. USB Memory Stick
    2.4.3. Network
    2.4.4. Hard Disk
    2.4.5. Un*x or GNU system
    2.4.6. Supported Storage Systems

https://www.debian.org/releases/buster/amd64/ch02s04.en.html

I am going to burn a CD-ROM and/or DVD-ROM. It's been a while and feels very retro, I guess I could do this. What is a a BD-ROM?

I am going to use dd to copy the image onto a USB Memory Stick. I've done that.

I am going to do a Network install, no I am not going to do this.

Hard Disk install, this is how I installed it previously. Let me find my notes.

Whether it's CD-ROM, DVD-ROM, USB Memory Stick, or Hard Disk install, the tricky bit is getting the computer to boot the image from that media. And, the tricky part about this is knowing the incantation for GRUB to do this. And, the additional tricky part is the mangled PC EUFI/Secure boot settings. If it's the raspberry pi it's easy: I stick the USB Memory stick in the pi and go. If it's the PC, it's well, as you said: forensics.

I wish that I could download a little install program, and install a fresh OS into one of the many free partitions on the PC, and that the installer would automatically configure GRUB to recognize that new OS without the incantations, and without stomping on other distros.

BD-ROM: Blu-Ray Disk Read Only Memory.

https://acronyms.thefreedictionary.com/BD-ROM

I'm not sure what you mean because I've never had to type anything manually at the grub prompt in an installation use case -- the boot images seem to be configured right, to give you a ramdisk and go into an installer.

But I will say:

> I am going to do a Network install, no I am not going to do this.

For Debian netinst really is the best. Debian has a lot of packages. I haven't kept up with all the full media over the years [first time I did a debian install was '99 or so], but it's always seemed pretty "completist", and contains more than I'll ever use. With netinst you get a base system, it gets you to a shell quickly and you can apt-get exactly what you need without a lot else.

"What is a a BD-ROM?"

A Bondage and Domination video on a plastic disk?

False! I have done my share of Debian installs over the years and I don't have anything above a bachelor's degree.

Hell, I was doing it when I was 15... :p

Debian network install (amd64) is a safe choice.

How many clicks does it take to find that?

Scratch that.

How do you find that without knowing exactly where it is already? What do you click on? Where is it on the page? What and how much do you have to ignore before you finally get to the part at every stage that's actually relevant to the breadcrumb trail?

[edit] The "click Get Debian" responses are absolutely killing me. OH YES AND THEN WHAT? How many paragraphs of jargon do you have to casually slide past? How many links do you have to _not_ click? How do you know which links to actually click vs all the ones that you're supposed to not click? The definition of "free"? The "installation manual"? Will the small image be incomplete? What's the difference between a small CD and a tiny CD? What's the difference between a USB stick and a "flexible" USB stick? Can't I put a DVD on a USB stick? I swear this kind of UX aspect blindness is why people hate SWEs.

It's on the Getting Debian page, so two clicks total.

How can I find "unofficial" testing image with non-free drivers?

There's a big "Getting Debian" link at the top of every page!

"Getting Debian".

From there you have roughly 5 options:

1) small installer that gets packages over the internet (netinst)

2) large installer that includes a bunch of packages ("CDs")

3) same as 2 but delivered to you physically

4) qcow2 cloud images

5) a live CD + installer

6) a computer with debian preinstalled

netinst is recommended if you can have a network interface that is supported out of the box.

Ubuntu's installation would be equivalent to 5) and is the friendliest UX.

You are expected to know which architecture you are using although branding makes it really hard for new users to figure that out.

Clearly people replying that haven't had to instruct other people to download it for a very long time.

"Here, let me send you a link"

Over a voice call?

"What's your e-mail address, so I can send you a link?"

As long as you have an ethernet cable if you have a laptop with an intel wifi card.

And good bandwidth, which of course not everyone has. But there are tradeoffs in every choice.

What in the world is a "network install" and what is "amd64"? Sounds geeky, I don't know what this is.

I remember installing Linux when I was like 14 and having a hard time trying to understand what x86/x86_64/x64/arm64 was. Knowledge that is mandatory, isn't explained in the place where kids encounter it for the first time, but completely useless if all you want to do is use a computer.

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