Apple to include new keyboard in 2019 MacBook Air and 2020 MacBook Pro | Hacker News Reader

Apple to include new keyboard in 2019 MacBook Air and 2020 MacBook Pro

9to5mac.com

104 pointsnailer66 comments

>> The MacBook Pro is also getting the new scissor switch keyboard, but not until 2020.

I guess my 2013 macbook pro will have to stay alive yet another year. Plus half a year of seeing if these keys are reliable

>> Apple is apparently set to ditch the butterfly mechanism used in MacBooks since 2015, which has been the root of reliability issues and its low-travel design has also not been popular with many Mac users.

Profitability issues due to replacements

>> Kuo says that Apple’s butterfly design was expensive to manufacture due to low yields. The new keyboard is still expected to cost more than an average laptop keyboard, but it should be cheaper than the butterfly components.

Do they count low yields at the factory, or do they include replacements due to defects?

Indeed, why not just switch back to the old design instead of yet another "new" design that will need to be proven - even if the old design is expensive, this is a premium laptop, for professionals, and I'd argue the keyboard is one area you should not be compromising too heavily for cost.

I get the sense that their new new design will be little more than an incremental improvement on the tried-and-true scissor switch, with a fun story about breakthrough materials design.

And I also get the sense that whatever Apple does here will be tested within an inch of its life. Hopefully that includes chocolate crumbs followed by a spilt latte.

> chocolate crumbs followed by a spilt latte.

Bring back the Atari 400 keyboard!

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/7f/Atari_40...

Interestingly, the one version of the butterfly keyboard, that seems to be reliable, is the smart keyboard for the iPad pro, which to no surprise is covered with a thin sheet. It is completely resistant to any dirt of liquid and even feels better than the MB Air keyboard.

The keyboard part of it is reliable for a while. But both the prior and current models have a keystroke correlated life.

The more you type, the sooner some part of the system (maybe the smart connector apparatus?) becomes unreliable. You increasingly have to uncouple and recouple the keyboard for keys to register correctly. Eventually, you throw it away and buy a new one. Thankfully a new one fixes it. For me, Apple has been ok with giving me the new one even though of course it generally doesn’t act up while in the store, only while trying to take real time notes during a critical retro ...

For me, the failure point ranges somewhere between 6 and 9 months, correlated with amount of notes and emails.

To be fair, the electronic failure comes well after the physical failure where the fabric printed with key caps has the key caps wear off then itself wears through — for me usually where the right thumb hits the space bar goes first.

Long story short, a superficial study would say it’s fantastic. In real world, I don’t know anyone using the iPad as a real genuine daily driver (to the exclusion of laptops and desktops) that has the Apple keyboard last a year. Every one that’s tried this with me for the past two models has had to replace them multiple times.

That is bad news indeed.

Hopefully with drain holes like Thinkpad keyboards.

I'd love to know more about the development timeline of this. When did Apple realise the butterfly switches were not salvagable?

My assumption is that Apple has a two year lead time for new models, so that they would have started working on this rumored 2019 Macbook Air in late 2017. At that point they must have realised that their updated butterfly switches from the July 2017 Macbook Pros still had reliability issues, so they started working on Macbooks with scissor switches. But since that would take 2 years, they had to do something in the mean time, and tried the silicone barrier to improve the situation with the 2018 models. When that still didn't help, they introduced their keyboard service program to avoid further hits to Macbook Pro sales.

Of course, that's all speculation, but I'd love to hear what the decisions were really like -- those must have been some very stressful meetings...

> When did Apple realise the butterfly switches were not salvagable?

Probably about five minutes after Jony Ive left. Somehow I doubt the timing is a coincidence.

It’s probably one of the reasons for his departure. According to Ive, Apple is no longer pursuing design for the sake of design and it’s instead going for products that work but in a more “mundane” form. And this somehow is a bad thing.

I don't think Apple has pursued design for the sake of design until very recently. Apple devices traditionally combined great design with good functionality. The G5 iMac was not only beautiful but you could open it up in a minute with a simple screwdriver. Only the current generation of iMacs hat the whole device literally glued together, so that any access to internals turned into an expensive repair bill.

My late 2008 Unibody MacBook hat a door which opened with a latch and gave access to the battery and hard disk. In a body that looks very much like my 2015 MB Pro. For quite a while, MB Pros might have been difficult to open, but you still could access battery, memory and SSD.

> I don't think Apple has pursued design for the sake of design until very recently.

Most likely. But Ive saw that the senior layers being stacked against him and his vision over the past few years. I think this was best for everyone. Consumers included.

..which reminds me of that article that keep resurfacing on HN, "choose boring technology". I'd think most of us would prefer practicality over style - but then again, it's hard not to fall for the attraction of "chasing the new shiny". It's the price and risk of innovation, I suppose.

Edit: A few month after I got my 2013 MBP, I spilt a full cup of coffee onto it. Opened up the laptop, wiped it down, and the keyboard is still working fine. Also replaced boot drive to SSD and maxed out the memory beyond recommended specs. I doubt the 2015~ models are so "boring", repairable and extensible..

Ive said that? Link please?

Not in so many words but this is what reports claim [0]. The "for the sake of design" was obviously my addition because that's the real life implication of his "focus on design": great looking but less functional products.

> Ive came to feel that the company had lost its focus on design as key senior roles were stacked with operations and business-focused personnel

I read this as "they were less focused on design even when that design ended up costing the business".

[0] https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2019/07/report-describing-jo...

Or a few weeks before, and it's exactly what resulted in his resignation. I picture it as him wanting yet one more go at salvaging the flawed design, and Cook telling him that he's overruling him because the customers' patience has absolutely run out and the company's reputation is being tarnished by this stupid, little, avoidable thing, so back to a sensible keyboard and damn the thinness.

At which point Ive must have said something like, "Never, not on my watch", and that's when his watch ended.

If this is true, then good riddance. I spent three thousand bucks on a new Macbook and had the keyboard fail within three months, and I still get intermittent problems I can only fix using air in a can.

Simply unacceptable when a Dell laptop with better specs would have been significantly cheaper.

Well ivy is a designer. He sees the machines that need to work as a fashion item. His influence was too big after Steve passed away. Steve is technical and design oriented. You can’t simply make pretty things without things to actually work.

Macos has been lacking so much as well. Where are the shortcuts etc? All the newer apps are pretty crap in terms of productivity.

I do not want to rain on your parade, but most rumours about Ive leaving Apple believe he had one project since the release of the first Apple Watch. That project being Apple Park. Ive has had a foot out the door for years and stayed because he got to do architecture. So while I think his ideas made the dreaded butterfly keyboard possible, I don’t believe he’s personally responsible for this fiasco.

There is no way Apple would be able to release the 2019 MacBook Air with a new keyboard if the decision was taken just now.

The decision probably wasn't taken just today but some time back, but also Ive wouldn't have left over night either. So the decision to plan the new MacBook Air with a new keyboard could have triggered the exit of Ive, which has been announced recently - we don't even know when the Air is going to be updated with the keyboard.

I sometimes feel that many people and companies need to take a lesson in the art of doing nothing.

Change for change’s sake is pretty shitty. The feeling of needing to do or change something is sometimes wrong.

Like this app which used to work pretty damn good... Scanbot. Every single release they mess it up even more, simply because the developers need to be doing something.

Nah. Developers learned to do something without producing anything: Refactoring! We can do it all the day as long as you want, there's no end at perfection. That's managers who feel that they need to do something.

I feel exactly the same way. So many apps, so many websites have been destroyed because people can’t stop adding features.

> Keyboard ergonomics and feel is dependent on many factors, but it is a promising sign that Apple is reverting to the same key switch mechanism used in every MacBook before 2015, which was widely praised.

If Apple builds an MBPr with the 2015 keyboard with newer materials and calls this a new and improved keyboard. They will have a purchase from me.

I will also hope that it's essentially a 2015 chassis and comes with magsafe and an improved cord so it doesn't wear out as quick. With the extra thickness they shouldn't have the screen issues with the cord wearing out either, solving that problem as well.

The only two wishes that I have are a micro-oled screen and arm processor. Maybe in 2022 I get delivered these, but I can wait.

edit: i meant micro-oled, not mini

Isn't the touchbar what you're asking for? Mini-oled screen and arm processor. Unless it was ironic and I am oblivious.

I think he means the main display and main cpu

MacBook, by M Night Shyamalan

I think they mean MicroLED rather than mini oled. MicroLEDs are meant to look and act the same as oleds but since they’re non organic, which means they don’t burn out like oleds do.

First good signs after Ive departure. I hope that new blood will improve their product line.

Unfortunate. I really love the new keyboard. I am typing it right now on a 2017 Macbook Pro butterfly keyboard. I have a 2015 Macbook Pro too but I don't like its keys that much.

Same. I feel like I'm in a minority, but I much prefer the feel of the 'new' butterfly switches. I've had two MBPs so far with this mechanism - one 2016 and now a late 2018 and I've not had any reliability issues.

I'm in the same boat, I much prefer the feel of the butterfly keys to the older mushy-feeling MacBook pro keyboards. Currently I'm still using the first Touch Bar MBP from 2016 and have had zero keyboard (or other hardware) problems.

I've had hardware problems with the butterfly keyboard right after buying my MBP (I've had it replaced and now it works). This butterfly keyboard is really buggy but still, I love how it feels.

I’m old enough to remember people complaining about the chiclet keys on the unibody MacBook Pro compared to the old PowerBook keyboard. Kinda funny that’s now considered the halcyon days of MacBooks. ;P

I also love the current keyboards and have two devices with them that have never had a problem. I believe that others have had issues but I'm not fastidious and travel often with my MacBook, not a single stuck key in either since 2016, and the key feel is satisfying.

That's good news—for the people who are buying laptops next year.

Hopefully the return to scissor switches is combined with some improvements to the touch bar. My suggestion to Apple would be: put a small physical ESC key on the far left of the touch bar on 13 inch models, and include both physical F-keys AND a touch bar on the larger models.

Bonus points: allow people to choose classic F-keys on the 13 inch models as a BTO option.

I suggest ditching that piece of shit of an invention.

4 years on, the TouchBar:

- Adds zero value in terms of functionality nor user experience for 95%+ of the user base

- Fails to better the classic buttons to change volume

- Fails to better the classic buttons to change screen brightness

- Leaves users deadlocked when they change screen displays

- Is incompatible with bootcamp, oftentimes blanking out

- Needs the user to be very cautious to not rest their hand anywhere near the touchbar, or ESC/F1/F2 will be pressed accidentally

- Needs the user to make sure that ESC was pressed when they wanted it pressed. No haptic feedback is terrible.

- Consumes more battery

- Adds a few hundred bucks to the price of the laptop, and there's lack of choice for 2018 MBP which forces the TouchBar on the user

If still alive, Jobs would have ripped someone's head off for letting the marketing idiots drive product development.

Fuck you Apple.

I avoided the Touchbar MBP for having no physical feedback and no escape key.

Yet I know multiple developers who consider it „quite nice, actually“.

So I’m wondering: do you really own a Touchbar MbP or do you just have an opinion.

The touchbar must be instead the trackpad!

The trackpad with some screen abilities... that could be really usefull.

Is it going to improve repairability?

Failing keyboard is just part of the problem. It is exposed part and sometimes fails.

The main issue is that its not possible to replace keyboard in easy and non destructive way. One has to ripout rivets, drill new holes and cut new threads.

Glu, SSD soldered on motherboard, non availability of replacement parts, bad repair service centers...

It's a pity they can't get them reliable enough.

My son has a 13" 2017 MPB and really likes the keys. I have a 15" 2015 MPB and need to replace it, and have quite enjoyed the butterfly keyboard when I use his.

I'm really looking forward to getting one with the touchbar, although I'd like a physical escape key.

I love the low travel and the feel of the keyboard on the 2018 model, but I’m not overjoyed that I had to hand my machine over for repair. Still, at least I got a brand new battery out of it too, thanks to the sketchy design choices…

As I mentioned [here](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20322875), negative reviews (especially to brand new tech) tend to get much much more traction, because the ones that are currently satisfied to the machine have no reason to 'whine'.

Read and compare the comments of this article and other news about the butterfly switches/keyboards. There are practically none comments about the butterfly's advantages. In this page, I see 4~5 comments about how butterflies are better (out of 27) even though this was submitted to 1 hour ago. [0] Considering this is HN (which likes bashing Apple) and that this is an issue more about reliability than the butterfly keyboard itself, and that the title really doesn't indicate the loss of the butterfly switches, it's a pretty high value (IMHO). I have yet to found anyone to complain while using the butterfly keyboards so IMO the criticism given to Apple with the butterfly switches are exaggerated.

The butterflies are innovative brand new switches, it's pretty reasonable for Apple to fail to predict these long-term failures. I was expecting 2018-style fixes where the fixes don't reduce the advantages of the switches; however I'm suspicious if the scissor based switches can retain low-pitch & stable keys.

When SJ did things, SJ wasn't worried about how others would say about new things. (To be fair, there were less people complaining as the market was much smaller before.) As a result, the (iterated and polished) end-results were pretty good, and people got to use the polished result.

I get to get worried about Apple when seeing these articles lately, as it looks like Apple has no more ideas and merely applying feedback to products.

I hope, (as a customer that prefers butterfly switches vastly over to more traditional switches or mechanical switches) 2019 & 2020 MBPs get a permanently fixed, better quality butterfly switches that can mitigate all customer dissatisfaction.

[0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20353336 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20353528 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20353685 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20353617

Hope they update the non touchbar Macbook Pro as well. Which has been sitting dust from all the upgrades(new keyboard, 8th gen CPU).

And at the same time, while Apple is moving away from butterfly switches, Dell is moving to them with new business laptop lines and XPS

Aren't those maglev though?

Yes, they are. Just a fancy branding with some minor technical differences, but the mechanical scheme is the same

They're going to come up with some putatively face-saving alibi for this if true, but beats me what that may turn out to be.

Excellent. Where does that leave those of us stuck with keyboards that don't work?

They have a free keyboard replacement plan for keyboards that don't work. https://support.apple.com/keyboard-service-program-for-mac-n...

Yeah, so they can defer the problem until out of warantee... like they have done with every single other defect in the past.

Some people catch on to this fact and kick up a fuss in store when there is a newer model available without the defect, if you are lucky they will cave and replace it with a new model instead of a new old broken model. At least, this used to work about 10 years ago with the first significant defect on intel based models (GPU failures), I haven't bothered with Apple since, not worth it.

For what it's worth I waited until they supposedly fixed the sticky keys issue, and got the new model last year. And within a few weeks my keys were stickingi anyway. Just going to leave that extra i in the last sentence for effect...

Nnice work!

What was missing from the previous post:

> The program covers eligible MacBook, MacBook Air, and MacBook Pro models for 4 years after the first retail sale of the unit.

i.e. we get cover for a further three years, assuming your keyboard broke in year one (which AFAICT is equivalent to saying "you regularly use your mac")

Thanks. I’m awaiting an invite to have my keyboard replaced (means no laptop for a few days, been waiting a week already).

And when it breaks again?

That’s nice, but after a replacement the problem comes back and they simply deny that it’s broken again

Why don't they offer both options? I really like the 2018 butterfly.

Because it's about realiability, they just can't get the butterfly mechanism to work without failing eventually and don't want to replace keyboards constantly. It's irrelavant that some people like the feel of the butterfly keyboard more if it breaks far too often.

Makes sense, thanks.

Agree the mechanism is really very good. Just keeps breaking, unfortunately.

I've had the first butterfly model (wast it 2016?), and indeed the keys would get stuck easily and I had to clean the keyboard with compressed air every other day, but even then I didn't have a single key broken down completely to stop functioning. And the 2018 model is much better, I will blow it with air occasionally, more as a precaution measure, and it works just fine.

Compressed air doesn't fix it, sadly. Going in for repair.

And I will be stuck with my £3000 macbook

Yeah I'm stuck with my 1977 Datsun 120Y too.

Reply on news.ycombinator.com