The $20 Starbucks Test | Hacker News Reader

The $20 Starbucks Test

blog.snootymonkey.com

139 pointsph0rque64 comments

I think I'd be uncomfortable with this not because of approaching random strangers but rather approaching them with false pretenses. You're essentially fooling people into listening to your ill-formed business plan by lying to their face about non-existant siblings in non-existant danger. Whatever happened to being honest with people?

"Hi. Can I buy you a cup of coffee in exchange for some feedback? Five minutes is all I want."

People will either blow you off as a scummy salesman or listen to you. You can sleep well at night with the knowledge that you didn't make someone late to work by toying with their emotions.

I think even complete strangers will be predisposed to give you positive feedback if they know it's your idea. If they think it's somebody else's idea, and you're priming them to think negatively about it, then you'll be more likely to get the negative opinions you were looking for.

Obviously I'm not addressing the morality of it, just the effectiveness.

I have ethical qualms about it too. I'm not sure I could get comfortable enough with them to do it. But you're totally spot on that the negative priming (he's making risky decisions, upsetting his family) and the distancing (it's my brother, not me) are very important to the effectiveness. If you say it's your own idea, and don't prime the pump of negativity, I'd expect significantly better feedback.

People can't help it. No one likes to say your baby is ugly, or those pants do indeed make your butt look fat.

Especially at a coffee place where anybody not wearing earphones is likely there expressly for the idle chatter that happens there.

I agree with your qualms, but isn't the easy answer to have your brother or sister do the testing? :) Or just a friend. The fear that you won't get an honest answer if people think they are criticizing you seems valid, but you don't need much distance before people can be honest.

My main worry is that you what you should be looking for is not popular validation of your idea by people who've never considered the details, rather you should be searching for hurdles that you've never even considered. The danger is that you conclude that the business idea is good when in reality it's just 'cool'.

I have to ask - is doing scientific experiments where you lie to some of the people in the study also dishonest to the point where you're uncomfortable?

It seems that most here had a really harsh reaction to the idea of lying in order to get honest feedback. And I honestly don't understand why. The lying is only there to give people the psychological distance they need from you in order to answer honestly - you're not lying to take advantage of anyone, you're not lying to get someone to buy something from you, you're only lying to make them comfortable in telling you the truth.

Note: I'm specifically speaking only about saying that your brother had the idea. I'm not talking about saying "I'm worried about my brother" to get them to talk to you, which I also think is wrong.

As nollidge says: they will be predisposed to give positive advice (also because you've just given them something and because these people are already interested in chatting, which usually doesn't last long when they are negative about you(r idea)).

However, aren't there intermediate paths that are acceptable, even though they contain white lies? You can tell them it's the idea of a friend who's asked you to invest. You're thinking about it, but want feedback from others, because you have all kinds of worries. That way, you're not getting into the conversation under false pretenses and you're just setting up the story to neutralize their predisposition towards the idea.

Approach it like they do in psychological studies: given their initial consent, deceive them if you like, but give a debriefing afterwards.

yock, I was happy to see your comment the first one in this thread.

The deceptive approach seems awful in every way.

Not only is this person asking for honest feedback from a stranger, he cannot even be honest with that person at their first meeting.

How does this business approach scale to when you have to talk to potential customers? What clever-ass story will you trick them with then?

"how's that working out for you? being clever?"

I thought the same thing - half the setup is educating us on the backstory of the brother - then says "focus on the idea and not the backstory"

I am inclined to think that the brother backstory will skew the results. You have lured the person in with an emotional backstory that would make them be more inclined to act a certain way, in that their inclination will be to give the best advice they can based on their perspective of the brothers about to lose money/make money on this idea.

I'm really disappointed with the frequency of posts advocating lying/deception appearing on HN. Everytime someone lies or takes advantage of someone, it hurts those who may really have a problem or issue.

If you want honest feedback then by all means ask people and they'll be likely to help. If for some reason they don't, maybe you'll have to compensate them more. They may give you a discount because you said it was an emergency, just as restaurant may give someone down on his luck free food. Or a motorist may give another free gasoline etc... In normal circumstances, this types of transactions are paid for - but in a time of distress people understanding your predicament will give you a discount - they'll help you for free, just as they would like help in a similar situation.

Anyway - being dishonest is wrong, and you shouldn't do it.

How is this taking advantage of someone?

It's a false emotional appeal. Would you answer a five minute survey for a cup of coffee? I wouldn't. But I'd spend 5 minutes to help someone.

I call this "a hobo technique." Imply you have a serious situation in that your worried about your "brother," where I would initially think, "cancer? do you want to use my cellphone?, then use my sympathy to segue into "see, he's got this business idea..."

It's extremely rare that a stranger has a need for more than 15 seconds of focussed conversation, and abusing this rarity I would think is quite rude.

Plus, you're lying.

I would give the manipulative sociopath his dollar for the coffee and walk away.

While well intentioned, I sorta think this idea sucks. Maybe it's just me, but random strangers with business ideas approaching me in public would immediately lead me to think "Amway scam" or "clueless businessperson".

I wonder what sorts of people would self-select themselves into accepting this offer? Also, most people who have tried to launch a product know that random input from people who are NOT your target users tends to suck.

Now, if I had an idea that seemed specifically geared towards the typical Starbucks|McDonalds|Home Depot shopper (or HIGHLY consumer oriented), then I might try this approach.

It seems to me that the point is to avoid missing a glaringly obvious problem with a project that, while you may be blind to, a random stranger may not.

I got the point of it, I just think it's horrible execution.

If you have a business idea, and you cannot find a way to solicit honest feedback from an ad-hoc consumer panel, then you should probably check yourself.

I don't understand why you need the whole deceptive angle. Go to Starbucks and approach someone and say "hey... I've got this interesting idea for [a way to do X better/faster/cheaper]. I'll give you a $5 gift card if you don't mind spending 15 minutes giving me your honest feedback."

The other fail of the idea was the whole trying to maximize $20 at Starbucks concept. Many people are going there to get a drink that will likely average $3 or more. Offering to buy someone a $1.50 black coffee when they came in wanting a $4.50 latte isn't going to get you off to the right start. Even spending $100 for 20 $5 gift cards would be cheap feedback, and (IMO) a more realistic approach.

I don't really think this is very clever, either, but unlike you I can't quite put my finger on why. Has either the poster or the originator of the idea really tried to measure the effectiveness of this technique?

Furthermore, why are people in a coffee shop sitting around without coffee, waiting to be bought a cheap drip drink (as you mention)?

I think the dishonesty makes some sense as people are nice and have a natural tendency to sugarcoat or outright lie, but I am entirely uncomfortable with it.

The other point is to test your idea on someone who is not in love with your own idea. It can be easy to be in love with your idea so much that you discount obvious pitfalls. And like the article mentions, this technique would only work with a consumer oriented product.

They'd be halfway through the first line when I say, "Sorry, not interested. I won't give you any money."

I'm a nice guy, but this approach has scam sob-story written all over it. I don't deal with scammers, and I'd prefer not to be seen as one.

Unable to come up with a way to vet your idea without wasting a stranger's time under false pretenses?

Better idea: pay people on Mechanical Turk 10¢ each to bash your idea. You'll get 200 people's feedback instead of 5 from the Starbucks. If even only 1 out of every 30 takes the job seriously, you'll get a better bang for your buck.

I have used a mechanical turk tool to do usability testing, this type of qualitative feedback would probably not do very well on there.

People doing mechanical turk have one goal, to complete your task as fast as humanly possible, even when laid out fairly concrete steps you end up with a lot of feedback that isnt necessarily useful, either because they purposefully skipped it or there was communication issues or they just decided it wasnt time efficient.

I know mechanical turk has a feedback mechanism, but there is so much signal to noise that we found it much more useful to go and meet real people.

This is an excellent idea! There couldn't be a more random assortment of internet users and if the rest of the internet is any indication they'll be more than happy to be describe using a website. The way they phrase their descriptions will tell you a lot about what they find significant, annoying, or simply what they don't even mention, e.g. not clicking on a link to a page that you spent 30hrs on. Call it a learning experience. :)

I think a lot of people are, like us, commonly frustrated by UX decisions and would love to have some input on the subject, even if it's for a nobody. The number of $20-iTunes-card focus group ads on Craigslist seems to support this.

Part and parcel to this (and MT) is that anybody can be successful On The Internet, so random strangers will give you the benefit of the doubt that you could indeed be the next Zappos guy (don't say you're the next Zappos guy), optimistically speaking.

Recent post: Mechanical Turk is broken. Feedback is no better than random. People are gaming it, so no value left.

Interesting -- have you done this successfully?

No, but this person has: http://harperlindsey.com/2010/09/01/how-i-used-amazons-mecha...

cool, thanks!

The beginning of the conversation sounds like an intro to a Nigerian 419 scam. I was waiting for "can you transfer some money from my brother" or something :). Not to mention the fact that I might be booted out if customers feel uncomfortable.

Enjoyed the article. I do like the point about the rejection therapy.

Ahhh, the joys of working in silicon valley where it can be assumed that every individual in Starbucks is going to comprehend you "brother's" start-up idea.

Also, if I tried this method in my local Starbucks, I'd end up interviewing people just looking for a complimentary cup of coffee.

Kind of reminds me of the Encyclopedia Britannica "get a free thesaurus" promo where you'd sit through an hour long sales pitch just to be able to say "no thanks, can I get my free thesaurus?"

Free thesauruses were fine but as a kid my father made us sit through 3 hours of timeshare crap on a family vacation in Hawaii so he could get 2 free cases of pineapples. We were quite sick of pineapple within a week.

Amazing what we will endure for something free.

If I tried this at a local Starbucks, I'd be interrupting college girls trying to do their homework. Hmm, maybe it would be a good way to ask them out on a date... oh, until they find out I don't have an entrepenurial brother. Then I'd just look like a creep.

2 points: 1. Moral issues aside, the key is to get the idea out of your head and have other people go at it. There is a class of people that can't spend enough time focused on one project because all these great new ideas keep coming and coming ("uninformed optimism"). Getting external feedback might help regulate this process a bit. 2. Break out of your echo chamber and talk to complete strangers. I believe the best and most innovative ideas come from being exposed to all sorts of industries/occupations. Talking to a random person in a coffee shop could be your way to add serendipity to your meme pool. (Starbucks in some parts of the country might have some homogeneity in the customer population when it comes to designers/developers/etc, making it not the greatest choice, but you get the idea).

In a word: "serendipity"

It sounds like an okay idea other than the lying about worrying about your brother.

I would much rather a person be honest than take up my time while keeping up a charade about a crazy brother, if someone did this I would probably just tell them to talk to their brother rather than me.

The point about using the "brother" is to provide the distance required to make the stranger feel like they can give truly honest feedback without hurting your feelings.

The parent post said the method was dishonest. You are arguing that it is useful. The two things are not mutually exclusive.

You don't have to tell them it's your idea. Or just say you're looking for negative feedback. People like telling you why something won't work too.

Even if you lie and say it's your brother's idea, how many strangers will believe you? It's such a cliché premise.

It's always great to get feedback, but if a random stranger is able to point out flaws in your business plan or product that you weren't able to uncover through your own thinking, planning, and discussions with friends, partners, etc. Then I'd say you haven't done your homework.

Some people think your friends will just agree with you so they don't hurt your feelings, but in my experience that is not the case. But be sure to ask them to play devils advocate. If all you're getting is positive feedback, tell them that you don't want to hear about what is great about the idea, that you know. Ask specifically why they think it won't work.

Imagine if the Odeo guys had done this with their new Twitter idea.

Yeah, some stranger might have thought for a few minutes and then asked "But how are they going to make money from it?"

I'll bet you $100 that they end up doing just fine.

I'm not sure I'd want the opinion of someone who is willing to waste their time talking to a complete stranger on pretenses that seem like an obvious scam just because they offered to buy them coffee.

There's 2 things wrong with this idea: First is that I really can't see this approach being much more successful than just being honest and saying "can you spare 5 minutes? I'll buy your coffee for the trouble." And more importantly, the overwhelming majority of consumers can't give an unbiased opinion on a business idea. Especially when you frame the question with your brother being destitute if the idea fails. 99.99% of the time, people will tell you not to do it simply because the consequences of failure are so high. Just be honest. People like free stuff. Just buy them the coffee and they'll be more than happy to listen to your idea.

"If I had asked my customers what they wanted, they would have said a faster horse." Attributed to Henry Ford

People have no idea what they want or need, or even what they like. Observe the following empirical evidence as presented by respected marketer Malcolm Gladwell:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iIiAAhUeR6Y

Also, that bit about a heart valve is a sly reference to a famous polymath-type who invented a revolutionary kind of heart valve as just one part of a long and incredibly varied career. Can anyone remember who this is? Google is giving me nothing.

Wait, you can get regular coffee at Starbucks?

I wholeheartedly disagree. You can't ask most consumers what they think of an undeveloped business idea. They don't know what they want.

At a minimum you have to put something visual in front of them, even better if its a prototype. Check out Rocket Surgery Made Easy (http://www.sensible.com/rocketsurgery/index.html).

I'm not sure being dishonest with people is the way to get an honest response.

Wouldn't it be better if you asked people directly for their opinions about several ideas and not disclose which one it is that you care about? To get honest responses, you might ask about several obviously bad ideas to loosen them up and get them thinking critically.

I personally feel the approach recommended here is unethical. However striking up conversations with random people does have other (different) benefits;

1/ The act of regularly practicing your pitch helps you find holes in the idea - often indirectly. Sometimes people say something off-topic that can make you think "damn - I should have considered that"

2/ Due to the "Faster Horse" effect you're unlikely to get decent product insights - especially with some types of consumer products. However, what you can do is get very useful insights into the person's pain points: "Why are they too busy for a competitors product?"; "Does the fact they have family abroad suggest previously unconsidered business models?" etc

3/ It helps you become more confident - provided you don't lie. Presumably if you end up only being confident when you lie then before you know what happened you'll become a scam artist!

This was exactly the technique employed by a young drug effected person asking for money who was standing outside the local supermarket. "My mother is suddenly ill and I need $10 / $20 bucks to get to X." Except the guy doesn't tell you his startup idea.

Actually this guy is giving away money (well, coffee), not asking for it.

What's the advantage to this over getting feedback from honest, intelligent friends?

Wow, a lot of sensitive people here (and in saying so I expect my comment to be downvoted into Hades).

Like I mean, come on, he's just demonstrating a way he got new insights into his product. I think it's a great idea.

Take it with a grain of salt.

> he's just demonstrating a way he got new insights into his product.

By being dishonest. Being offended by that is not being sensitive, it's being normal. It's not at all a great idea; it takes advantage of other peoples emotions with lies. You'd have to be kind of sociopathic to not realize that isn't cool or acceptable to most people.

I think you missed the crux of the article. The article is not about manipulating emotions with lies, it's about getting different opinions and perspectives on your product.

His method was a little crass, but I'll bet he wrote it with his tongue planted firmly in his cheek.

Please do not do this

Most people are no good at business - and you're not filtering out successful people to give you advice on a business idea. There are meetup.com groups for entrepreneurs which are usually just people with full time jobs fantasizing about not working for the man... if you just want to talk to random people I would say go there instead of interrupting someone when they are getting coffee in the morning ;)

This is a similar strategy I used the other night when I asked my strangers to help fill out a survey. Here's one in a google doc form if anyone wants to help figure out a good reason to choose one domain over the other.

https://spreadsheets.google.com/viewform?hl=en&formkey=d...

There really is no contest between those two domains, IMHO ;)

Just ask people's opinion people! Its not that hard.

Find someone in the cafe that looks like they fit your target demographic and isn't too busy. Put a smile on your face, walk up to them and say

"Hi ... my name is xxxx, I was wondering if you could help me figure out some possible problems with this business idea I've got. And no ... I promise I'm not going to try to sell you anything"

Smile again. Rinse, repeat and refine as necessary.

This is bollocks. I usually tell people what I'm working on, during casual conversation. I then ask them if they'd use it. I don't need false pretenses. I just need to know the likelihood a person, given experience A, would take action B. And I make it interesting for them.

Save yourself some money and embarrassment and just do the same thing on Mechanical Turk..

Make a T-shirt talking about your product. "Ask me for a demo, right now (yep, at this Starbucks)". See how many people take you up on your offer. :)

Haven't tested this, but I will soon. :)

Ok, enough about the lying. Trivial spin on the technique: get a buddy to do it. Now he's telling the truth, about You.

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