This seems overly negative and a lot of FUD. Some of these issues are minor, and/or when aware of it are easy to work around. MySQL is much more than a "nosql with mature replication".
Yes. It is, and the parent is saying why (despite the fact it had more features) it shouldn’t be treated as anything more than a nosql document store with mature replication.
FWIW I’ve used MySQL, MongoDB, Postgres, Cassandra and a plethora of others at huge scale and I cannot possibly be clearer:
MySQL is full to the brim of foot-guns; storage specific behaviours, leaky transaction isolation and silent data corruption behaviours et al.
You CAN, absolutely navigate it well enough to never lose a bit or get bitten by any of its “weird” behaviours, but it requires that every person touching the database is very well versed in the entire documentation of the database.
That is why the parent is not spreading FUD, because MySQL as a technology should be approached with caution, and the fact that it looks like it’s working when it’s corrupting your data is the worst design consideration of the entire thing; which necessitates this behaviour and reinforces the myth that MySQL is not dangerous.
For years, Windows NT claimed to have Unicode support, but what they called Unicode was in fact the UCS subset that used 2 bytes for each character. They still haven't adopted UTF-8 which is ubiquitous on the web.
Windows uses NTFS which is a mess ridden by compatibility constraints. For instance, the recent releases of NTFS at last introduce a snapshot feature, but mounting the volume may destroy the snapshot. FAT was even uglier. Linux and BSD are fully compatible with many mature file systems, while Windows has few options.
Windows should not be treated as anything more than a volatile UI with mature drivers. Windows is dangerous and everyone should switch to Linux or BSD (MacOS for the hipsters). /sarcasm
As inconsistent and dangerous as it may be, MySQL is more than a nosql document store.
The only things I've had luck interoperating between the BSDs have been ISO9660, FAT32, and ext2. Windows has full support for the former two, and to be honest all of those are less-than-ideal.
This is very unfair to innodb which is a mature enterprise level relational engine.
I think I’m being fair to innodb though. It’s not necessarily InnoDBs fault that it cannot handle schema changes in a transaction, or munges data if the column isn’t the right size, or that it fails a commit but overwrites data anyway.
These are generally MySQL problems, and it doesn’t matter which storage engine you use.
Same behaviour as Ms sql server or sybase. Would you be so harsh with them?
> it cannot handle schema changes in a transaction.
Same behaviour for some cases on sql server and sybase. Also in MySQL 8 some schema changes are indeed atomic. You are being unfair as those limitations are perfectly fine to live with.
> it fails a commit but overwrites data anyway.
Please provide more information
MSSQL does not munge data if the column is not equipped for it, I have no idea about sybase. You can test this easily by making an int column and putting a maxint+1 in.. it will tell you "NO" and not insert anything.
MSSQL supports schema changes in transactions, fully, again, not sure about sybase. MySQL 8 might support it /sometimes/ but the major concern I had with this fact is that MySQL doesn't tell you it's going to break its transaction isolation. -- it just commits in the middle of your transaction and moves on.
My final point is mitigated somewhat by MySQL "Strict" mode, which nobody enables.
I have very limited internet but this video should explain/show the behaviour I'm referencing: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=emgJtr9tIME
It does truncate strings.so does MySQL. But you need to enable strict mode. Easy.
Mssql does allow ddl in transactions, but do not do it, you will have huge locking issues. It will also not work in snapshot isolation.
My point stands: all major enterprise dbms have limitations. And you are dismissing MySQL, but by your standards Mssql and sybase would also be dismissed.
This is unfair.
You just need a semi competent dev to know those limitations. And MySQL with innodb is not that far from sql server or sybase.
You are refuting a claim I never made. My issue is not with the limitations, these are a fact of life with any and all technology.
My issue is with silent data corruption and subtle issues that break expectations
Thus, requiring any user of the system to be fully versed in all the documentation and to be prescient enough at all times when interacting with the database.
I can’t make such guarantees, and PostgreSQL follows the principle of least surprise much better. If I have two options and one of them has odd silent failure modes and the other holds your feet to the fire to ensure correctness. I will consistently choose the latter.
This is the outrageous statement I was replying too. I get it, postgresql is your thing (I'm a postgresql dba BTW). However you are being excessive and unfair.
You are just repeating a meme without having administered databases professionally. You need to study your database of choice. Postgresql or Mysql. Are you aware of postgresql's fsync bug ? Is postgresql more than a nosql database because of that ?
> My issue is with silent data corruption and subtle issues that break expectations
SQL server and sybase do truncate data too. Silently. Are they nothing more than nosql databases because of that ?
My choice of database technology is driven by industry experience, not fanboyism (many who know me, know that I fought very hard against the fad of mongodb, for instance). And it's true I prefer PostgreSQL these days, mostly because the only time it's ever bitten me was with the autovacuum and that was all the way back in postgresql 8.2!
It's possible I'm incompetent, but I'd rather not go into a slinging match about competency right now.
I am aware of postgresql's fsync bug, but that's not _at all_ comparable to: defined, documented behaviour in a database engine.
Yes, bugs happen and bugs are bad, but what the grandparent stated was absolutely not a bug, it's documented behaviour, it's known behavior and it's only _just_ becoming addressed and only in the loosest of terms (incidentally as programmer mindshare is starting to focus on alternatives).
FWIW, I personally believe that MySQL and its ilk should be relegated to legacy applications, I do not hold it as fact that there's a cojent reason to choose it for a new project even as a NOSQL solution unless a few things are true:
1) All your developers only know MySQL and MySQL specifics (as in, you're a pure mysql shop and you know it very well)
2) You already have a product built on MySQL, it's costly to move.
3) You are the people who are building/designing mysql and trying to compete with more competent database engines.
You bring up truncation of strings, but I was talking primarily about ints/floats.
As a person who has 'dba' in his name you've made a lot of claims disparaging MSSQL, some of them I told you that you were wrong about and you agreed; but I am fairly certain that MSSQL does not truncate a string on insert. I'm going to test this claim.
EDIT::
Sorry it took me an hour to install MSSQL on my laptop, I'm on vacation in Russia and internet here is hard to come by.
Anyway: MSSQL does not silently insert varchars.
#> create table #sometable(acolumn varchar(8))
#> insert into #sometable(acolumn) values('blah blah blah way more than 8 chars')
Msg 8152, Level 16, State 14, Line 7
String or binary data would be truncated.
You should also read about arithabort and arithignore.
As I told you, you need to study the database engine you are using. For Mssql too. So you assumed it's always on. The type of mystake some non diligent devs do with MySQL. Gives it an undeserved bad rep. A dba can help you and teach you the nuances. Ask them at your company.
There have been a considerable amount of efforts made to improve innodb. It's plenty fast and properly used, it's well behaved. Just like Mssql.
It used to be true. Not so much anymore. Study the defaults on mysql 8.
If parent meant that sql server and sybase are no more than nosql data store, I beg to differ.
Those issues have been "fixable" in innodb for years using flags. This is getting old. I think people come in here to have accurate information.
You've repeatedly dumped a long string of personal attacks based on statements of fact that were fundamented rather well, and in spite of your repeated appeals to authority you've failed or refused to comment on the technical aspects and decided to react with attacks and repeated assertions that in your eyes other alternatives are not perfect. Perhaps its high tine for you to step away from the keyboard and think about what you've been doing in this thread and how you've decided to portay yourself in this discussion.
Please edit this sort of thing out of your posts to HN, regardless of how defensive someone else is being or how provoked you feel. If they're really being so defensive, nothing good will come of arguing and it's best to let go anyhow.
or that would somehow highlight that it's more complicated to get compliance from one that the other, eg because the required SQL is more complicated