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Comment by gwbas1c | Hacker News Reader

As much as I love my Model 3, it has quite a few quirks that a car from a traditional automaker wouldn't have: (nonstandard charging connector, snow falls off the rear windshield into the trunk, no power shades over the sunroof, no place to store sunglasses, ect.)

And, as much as I want Tesla to succeed, they really need to figure out how to get some know-how from standard automakers. I never had a pile of snow fall into the back of my Leaf when I opened its trunk! It also had a sunglasses holder, and I didn't need to use a dongle to plug it into a standard charger.

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Others have responded to the trunk thing, but I will comment about the "non-standard" charging connector. There was no standard available at the time that Tesla started deploying thousands of high-KW chargers. It is hard to blame them for choosing their own.

Even now, there are only certain regions where the other networks have advantages over Tesla's (coincidentally, the part of the US I'm in is one of those regions). Tesla is currently promising to support other viable networks in the future, presumably by adapters. At the very least, Chademo is expected for the model 3 in the near future, but hopefully CCS as well. Obviously they already support CCS in Europe.

Also, keep in mind that GM is a pretty traditional manufacturer and doesn't even give you a CCS charger without paying for an additional DC fast charging option.

Tesla isn't perfect, cars aren't perfect, but Tesla's are as good as they get in EVs right now.

I'm looking forward to a unified standard, but the charger landscape is a confusing mess.

There's type 1 and 2 AC charging, US vs Europe. Each of those has a DC charger version with DC charge pins added below the connector. At least these are mostly a form factor issue.

Japan's manufactures have been pushing chademo, which has 2 versions itself and uses a completely different signalling protocol.

China has yet another standard, with different signalling, but they're working with chademo to try to unify it in a new version.

Then Tesla has theirs. At least Tesla is starting to unify around having adapters for the competing standards, though the adapters aren't cheap.

I admit, I do like the CCS system if I were a car manufacturer. You make a larger socket and you can support both AC and DC sources in one connector. Alas, it has the two different connector type standards. But it is still all a mess if you're a car maker.

Yeah, its a horrible mess, and I think that is a big part of why Tesla's choice was the right one for them, at least at the time.

At least Europe has started to standardize on a reasonable variant of CCS (type 2?) and Tesla is starting to just put these on the car with an adapter for the other types (including Tesla's own proprietary one). That makes a lot of sense to me and that standard seems pretty good.

I still don't know why the US hasn't done the same thing. Instead the CCS adapters here are huge and clunky, and there are no adapters for Teslas at all. The stations here get an occasional Bolt charging at well below the capability of the charger and that is about it.

2005 Honda Civic: Water drains from the trunk lid into the trunk when you open it in the rain. If you open the trunk when there's snow on the rear window, it gets jammed up between the trunk lid and the window.

The traditional automakers aren't immune from this sort of thing.

Turns out making a car is really complicated and full of tradeoffs. A car with no compromises is going to cost 6 figures at least.

Yeah, I'm not asking for a perfect car; it isn't made by any automaker, traditional or not.

Personally, I'm a great believer in the theory that character is the great redeemer in cars. I once owned an '86 Subaru BRAT. It had all manner of quirks, but character in spades. Loved it, wish I'd never sold it.

I will say, the water pouring into the trunk bug is singularly annoying, all the more so since the Civic doesn't have a lot of character to make up for it. Or maybe that's the Civic's manifestation of character, and I haven't yet found the flaw it's there to make up for.

Turns out even cars that are over 6 figures are still totally full of trade offs and compromises. This is a particularly insane example, but luxury cars are still in no way perfect.

Doug DeMuro Reviewing a $200000 hummer: https://youtu.be/UqKUExgryXo

Exotic cars usually have a lot more quirks and compromises than normal cars. They're also not known for being terribly reliable; the ones that are are made by divisions of much larger automakers, so they can raid the parts bin of their cheaper siblings. Jaguar used to be infamous for how unreliable their cars were, until Ford took them over.

> 2005 Honda Civic

That's a 14, approaching 15 year old car. The weather seals and such are probably past their lifespan, and I'd expect Honda has improved the Civic in a number of ways in the last 15 years.

That's also comparing a ~$19,000 car to a base model $35,000+ Model 3 (that costs $45,000+ in some cases). They're not supposed to play in the same league. You'd expect the Model 3 (or any Tesla for the price-point) to be a lot better than a generic Honda.

You've missed the point. I believe the parent is talking about a 7th generation platform with a fundamental design flaw, not weather seal degradation. Price of the vehicle is completely irrelevant, but to be sure, these types of problems exist in just about every exotic on the market.

I have the same issue with a 30k 2014 Toyota Camry Hybrid.

I think you're being blinkered in your views.

Just nitpicking on your arguments, but..

> snow falls off the rear windshield into the trunk

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bkSuyXnCSO4

> no place to store sunglasses

Most cars me and my family had - had no such thing (though I agree it's very convenient).

I agree that Tesla is mass manufacturing newbie (slow to scale up, compared to the industry veterans), shoddy manufacturing practices/decisions, but they have things sorted where it matters though. Extremely well built batteries with superb longevity (Nissan Leaf's AFAIK are the worst, due to being air-cooled, etc.). Tesla has powerful and more efficient motors/batteries/drivetrain than competitors. Using adapters between power/data connectors is daily occurrence to me. I am not amazed we have this problem with relatively new tech of EVs.

I am not sure about charging. Was there any standards when Tesla started developing their Superchargers and Model S, especially for Tesla's demands for very fast charges? Maybe they did not have any other option?

P.S. all in all if not Tesla breathing into the car giants' backs (and probably if not diesel-gate), most manufacturers will not be aggressively expanding their EV line-ups now. They would do it in 5-15 years time, when more aggressive regulations would kick-in.

> > no place to store sunglasses

> Most cars me and my family had - had no such thing (though I agree it's very convenient).

OK, but we're not discussing budget cars - a Model 3 will run you $35,000 to $45,000+. That's premium car territory - and you should expect premium build quality and features.

Skimping on a sunglasses holder is ridiculous for this price level, and while may be trivial by itself, it's indicative of the tier of design that went into the vehicle - budget.

~35k is currently more or less entry level for an electric car due to battery cost.

The leaf for example is 31k, has a 150 mile range and many sacrifices. The bolt on the other hand is running $36,620 for the base model with a more reasonable range.

Nissan Leaf can be had for ~$22k, and comes standard with a sunglasses holder.

Without the rebate, it's a $29k car - still cheaper than the base $35k Model 3. They both get about the same range.

The 2019 leaf is listed at:

  S: $30,885
  SV: $33,385
  SL: $37,095
  S Plus: $37,445
  SV Plus: $39,405
  SL Plus: $43,445

With the S, SV, and SL all having a 150 mile range. Now you might be able to pick one up below manufacturing cost, but that’s a different issue.

Might depend where you live, but Nissan's website lists $29,990 MSRP, and $22,490 after Federal Tax Credit[1]

That's, of course, before any negotiations. MSRP would naturally be above invoice price, which is of course above manufacturing cost.

Where are your numbers coming from?

[1] https://www.nissanusa.com/electric-cars/leaf-2019/

Click the asterisk. “All prices listed herein are Manufacturer’s Suggested Retail Prices (MSRP), which exclude installation, taxes and other costs, and are subject to change without prior notice.”

The 2019 Nissan Leaf S is priced at “$29,990,” plus a destination charge of $895. Though last I checked Tesla has a "destination fee" of $1,125 even if you pick it up at the factory.

I believe Tesla has a "no negotiation" policy too - encouraging people to purchase online at sticker price.

At a traditional car dealership, practically nobody pays sticker price... the price you see advertised is the anchor point to start negotiations, ie. "worst case price".

That’s not actually true.

Dealerships often get more than MSRP, but they are often making money through hidden fees like a high interest rate on a car loan etc. Prices may also increase when inventories are low, but generally it’s through a wide range of up selling.

Put another way, dealerships can afford a large sales staff because it’s making them money. One highly profitable sale can be worth more to a dealership than several average sales.

> Dealerships often get more than MSRP

That's not true. Each trim package has it's own MSRP, and while a dealership may inflate the asking price for a particular model with a particular trim package or features, few people walk into the dealership having no idea what the standard asking prices are - and willing to pay full asking price too.

Of course dealerships make money from financing terms and leasing - and yes things like "window etching" and more are pure profit for the dealership. That doesn't change the vehicle's out the door price.

I am not talking trim, I mean net cost to the consumer.

Supply and demand can impact the customer in a positive or negative fashion. Many people really end up paying under MSRP, but not everyone. It’s not uncommon for "market adjustment" on an in demand car to push people over MSRP. Similarly many buyers don’t negotiate well and simply get taken advantage of.

However, the most common way people pay over MSRP is with leases or alternate fees. Dealerships simply have a multitude of levers to work with and can insert many meaningless fees.

Destination charge is the most common but hardly the only BS fee. The price is what they charge you, not just another line item on your bill.

$35k - $45k is hardly premium. Honda Accord moderately spec’d is high 30s.

That's stretching it, "moderately".

That's effectively the top model with all options ticked.

The Sport model: $26,180

Your choice of paints, included. HondaSense, included.

Want to add Chrome Alloy wheels, sure, $2,000.

But you can then get -every- exterior option for about $1,000 (trim, door edges, puddle lights, splash guards, vanity grill).

And -every- interior accessory for about another $1,000 (HomeLink, cargo, doorwell illumination, etc.).

And -every- electronic accessory for well, just another $1,000 ($1,020 to be precise) - Engine block heater, parking sensors, additional USB charging ports, wireless charging for the dash.

I'm not sure how turning on every single option, plus chrome alloy wheels for $30k becomes "moderate spec for high 30s".

Most of those options are included when buying a car on a lot from a dealership (who of course make most money with the high margin options). Bare bones options are extremely rare to come by.

$35k - $45k is hardly premium. Honda Accord moderately spec’d is high 30s.

Germans only added reasonable cup holders a decade ago.

I consider volvo a premium brand, costing more than the typical cars. My volvo does not have a sunglasses holder.

It's such a ridiculously 1st world problem to rant about - it's crazy. If it's top 3 problem with Teslas, then I think they are doing very well with their design and manufacturing.

> P.S. all in all if not Tesla breathing into the car giants' backs (and probably if not diesel-gate), most manufacturers will not be aggressively expanding their EV line-ups now.

This doesn't seem to really be true. Most cars sold in the US are still not EV, and Tesla's ~245k[1] cars delivered in 2018 is really, really small compared to ~5.3 million cars sold in the US in 2018 in total[2].

Looks like of the 5.3 million sold in the US in 2018, about 361k[3] were EV's. So, ya, Tesla has the lion share of EV's delivered in 2018 (not necessarily sold in 2018, mind you), but EV's is still a very small market and no sign that it's being aggressively expanded beyond a few select customer bases.

[1] https://www.statista.com/statistics/502208/tesla-quarterly-v...

[2] https://www.statista.com/statistics/199974/us-car-sales-sinc...

[3] https://www.greentechmedia.com/articles/read/us-electric-veh...

The amplifier in my BMW died after snow fell from the lid into the boot/trunk and shorted it. Utterly crap design.

> snow falls off the rear windshield into the trunk

That's happened in literally every car I've ever had, when you open the trunk the bit closes to the windshield that becomes the 'bottom' always has an inch or more gap between it and rubber gasket/weather strip. Any snow on the rear window or trunk deck slides down and if there is enough dumps into the trunk, unless it is very wet and can hold itself in a clump.

2014 Toyota Camry Hybrid, Open the trunk after rain and water falls into the boot (trunk).

Unfortunately this seems to be a common issue with a lot of car designs.

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