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Comment by 0xcoffee | Hacker News Reader

I saw this posted on HN before and it received a lot of negative feedback, so I would like to offer a positive experience.

I live in the Netherlands and there are electric cars here that already make these sounds. Its like a really faint 'vmmm' found. Its great because when I'm cycling I can hear a car coming up behind me, but its still way softer then regular car sounds so its still a decrease in night noise pollution vs regular cars (the 'vmmm' is really soft and doesn't carry far).

I also noticed it already when walking around parking lots, if there wasn't a 'vmmm' i would never realize that there are cars driving around. Sound really is one of the most important senses for situational awareness.

(I live in the City where cars crawl around slowly so the sounds are active)

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It would be both fun and annoying if people start customizing the sounds their car make as they drive by. I could see the passing star destroyer sound as pretty cool but a recreation of the Harley-Davidson rumble as annoying.

That easy enough to work around. Just ban noise that's too loud. And if some trolls oppose an arbitrary db limit for some inane reason, just ban noise that could cause hearing injuries -- and strip a good 10 or 20db on the basis that kids get hearing damage at much lower db levels than adults. A Harley Davidson sound at the sound level of a low power vacuum cleaner is so hilariously emasculated that someone driving the car you describe would be ruthlessly ridiculed.

As somebody living next to a road - just no. I can hear bicycles going by inside at night when it is quiet. (The ones that have some things wrong with them, granted.) Any intentional additional traffic noise without a clear safety benefit should be banned.

One existing example...

https://youtu.be/n17B_uFF4cA

Maybe just let people dial in a few modulation variables to a default growl sound. A limited synth. You could tweak it till your dog recognizes it.

Sell some warm sounding effects as vehicle add-ons like a delay or reverb unit.

If you live in a city in the Netherlands, you are surely used to 90% of vehicles (as in, bikes) not making a sound?

Indeed, so my assumption is that this law is trying to keep things from changing.

People will have to adapt to silent cars. But that's scary.

Everybody knows that you have to look before making a turn or changing lanes. We also know that by and large people who listen to music or have a headset for a phone conversation are not killed en masse.

I think that is law is a pity. There is enough noise pollution already.

Silent cars are dangerous. It’s not extremely dangerous, but we have lots of cars. Consider even very slow speed collisions can be dangerous. People get pinned or pushed into traffic etc.

Comparing even a fairly low number of deaths and serious injuries vs a minor noise from moving cars and it’s an obvious choice IMO.

In my opinion these kinds laws are of the kind that "we need to do something because we need to do something". The effects are marginal. If these laws were the result of solid scientific studies and engineering it would be different, but they are not.

Basically everybody has to pay the price of having more noise pollution to save a few people not paying attention at what they are doing.

The reason we get these kinds rules is because there is a regulatory framework for cars. which makes it easy to add additional requirements.

For example, in the Netherlands both electric mopeds and high speed electric bikes get more popular. Certainly the bikes are at high speed essentially silent (small bike tires have less friction and make less noise).

Because there is no framework to require bikes to make noise they don't have to. And needless to say, a collision with a bike going 45 km/h will do a lot of damage.

If people bumping into silent things was a wide spread problem, then yes it would make sense to require every thing to make noise.

But these types of accidents are just that, accidents. They will always happen. Taking random measures to reduce accidents with an unknown amount will just make society as a whole worse.

> Taking random measures to reduce accidents with an unknown amount will just make society as a whole worse.

It’s not random, actual studies gave demonstrated the risk for years. https://crashstats.nhtsa.dot.gov/Api/Public/ViewPublication/... “The HEV was two times more likely to be involved in a pedestrian crash in these situations than was an ICE vehicle.”

And no it’s not just about people not paying attention, the blind don’t get the option on this one.

That's why it is random. Solid engineering implies that you estimate how much effect this measure will have.

Note that the report says 'Incidence rates provided in this report should be interpreted with caution due to the small sample size.'

If this was solid engineering, there would minimum noise requirements to help people with reduced vision.

This is similar to having a man with a flag walk in front of car. Because those horseless vehicles are just scary.

I was intentionally linking to an early study. There are plenty of studies looking into this issue and more than enough data to determine it’s a real problem. In fact many hybrids have included such systems for years.

Here is a more recent example with far more data. https://www.iihs.org/media/0465243f-89d5-4fa7-95c1-367f1e2c1...

Overall it’s on the order of hundreds more deaths in the US alone assuming every car becomes a hybrid or electric vehicle without these systems.

And even without deaths it's far more comfortable as a pedestrian if I can hear a car coming before I turn my head. Situational awareness as another comment mentioned elsewhere relies on all of the senses. I for one would like more sound from e-scooters; been almost hit a few times.

Personally I'd rather have the environment as free of noise pollution as possible, and I'll just look both ways before I cross the street.

Meanwhile, parking lots turn into a deadly game of frogger...

The average reaction time for humans is 0.25 seconds to a visual stimulus, 0.17 for an audio stimulus. You’re crossing at a crosswalk past stopped cars and someone takes their foot off the break, you will dodge faster with engine noises. And, it’s not just about crossing the street, knowing a car is on changes how people walk past seemingly parked cars.

Worse, saying you will just get this right every single time you do it, however you only need to make a mistake once to die.

I don't want the noise and I don't agree it's necessary.

A claimed 0.08 seconds improved reaction time (were you implying that was a lot? because a slow-moving car doesn't go far in 0.08s) is not enough reason in my opinion to have what are bound to be deafening beepers everywhere. So noise! much safety! You are proposing a ridiculous noisy dystopia. Imagine a carpark full of cars loudly beeping at all times!

Cars should have sensors like parking sensors for when they're moving slowly, or flashing lights, or literally any other solution than more meaningless noise in our already much too noisy environment.

You are overstating the danger with your, "you only need to make a mistake once to die" alarmism.

The study you linked is pretty interesting. They attempt to control for the variables by only studying cars with highly similar models of hybrid and non-hybrid variety. They show a 17% increase in the number of bodily injury claims without a corresponding property damage claim. They do disclaim that they can’t actually tell from this data if a pedestrian was actually involved.

But I wonder if there’s one thing missing here. Hybrids have a lot higher low-end torque. I think the definitive study would be on a hybrid car with and without the noise, and I’m not sure if they ever tried to do that for the Leaf?

It’s hard to put a value on what lowering ambient sound levels in a city might be worth. Or overall even how many lives it could save. Or productivity and wellbeing increases due to lower stress levels.

A minor noise from moving cars? How about this horrifying little marketing piece from Nissan [1] about their new “Canto” noise they are going to emit?

Besides, these noise levels are calibrated to be loud enough in a bustling city at high noon. They are not dynamic based on time of day, or location, or actual ambient sound levels. So, in other words, they will be loud and obnoxious, particularly outside of the city, where ambient is almost 20dB lower.

[1] - https://youtu.be/p4cjPk8mqEM

I hate noise pollution too but some people are blind.

Right. And electric vehicle with AVAS emitters fitted are still much, much quieter than most combustion vehicles!

Is that still actually true? Surely they're quieter than the average car from the 1970s, but the loudest sound you get from a lot of modern gasoline-powered vehicles at low speeds is the "whoosh" from air displacement, not the engine.

Even modern combustion engines are still pretty noisy at low speeds compared to EVs. Especially when starting up or when revving to pull away at an intersection. At < 12 mph they’re not displacing enough air to make a “whoosh”!

Diesel engines, endemic in Europe even in small cars, are particularly noisy.

Conductive headphones are great for running outside and not getting killed. Your ears are free to hear while you feel the music well enough.

Yes, and silent bike interactions happen all the time. But a silent bike interaction is like this:

'Cyclist behind some pedestrians, other slow cyclists'

'Cyclist either rings bell or says 'excuse me''

In a car situation, the car would have to honk its horn which is much more interrupting to people trying to sleep then small 'vmmm' which is only hearable in a small radius around the car.

Peds and cyclists often share spaces, and cyclists and cars also often share spaces. The issue is how can a faster silent vehicle safely and socially share a space with slower more vulnerable vehicles.

We have daily accidents with peds walking into a bike path unpredictably and causing conflict. (Not necessarily a crash but annoyance by cyclist having to do evasive maneuver). However if an crash happens its not usually do bad, while even a low speed collision with a car will damage your bike and the car and cost $$$.

So I wouldn't look at the bike as an example of a silent vehicle working well in a city environment. We have many accidents they are just also very minor accidents.

For the people who will point out that this could also be solved with better infrastructure, I agree. Most of the accidents happen at places where e.g. peds get a green light to cross the road and then continue to cross the cycle path on the other side because in their mind they are protected by the green light, but actually now cyclists have right of way. Sometimes we put zebra crossings across bike paths but then everyone is confused because the cyclists don't stop anyway and it just causes more conflict because still the rules are being broken but just by the other party now.

tl;dr rules are confusing and people don't follow them anyway. A city environment is super dynamic, and often infrastructure cannot be changed. Adding 'vmmm's makes those interactions much easier, and its really doesn't cause the noise pollution people keep talking about.

Yes to all this.

I also wonder whether cars ought to have something less loud than the horn, for communicating with people who aren't encased in metal. Like trams (many places) have a little bell.

I notice that the bike messengers in the city now have “horns” that are more like an electric beep that is not as loud as a car. Also, the police cars have rumblers that you feel more than hear.

When I’m in NYC, I always wish there was a counter for horn-presses that eventually triggers an automatic fine if you use your horn too much.

I've heard from a friend that his relative in India absolutely won't drive with a broken horn, because that is how you let people know where you are.

I'm curious how much of the honking in NYC is, say, "on your left" vs "up yours" compared to other cities/countries.

I’d say it’s mostly a form of complaining that traffic isn’t moving, even when the people in front are also stuck. It’s truly pointless noise-making.

The tram bell is one of the more horrifying sounds you can hear on the road though. Basically, get out of the way or get hit, since it can neither evade nor stop fast.

Note that the sound trams in Amsterdam make for example only sound like a little bell from a good distance. Close up those things are exceedingly loud (and for good reason).

'Cyclist either rings bell or says 'excuse me''

In a car situation, the car would have to honk its horn which is much more interrupting to people trying to sleep then small 'vmmm' which is only hearable in a small radius around the car.

Give the electric car a little bell? (Former electric car driver here.)

So jealous of Dutch streets. People can be so civilized with bike/ped interactions. Put people behind glass and steel of cars, and it seems like they only shout "fuck you" at each other.

It’s the Dutch. Bicyclists (and those scooter riders) are huge assholes to pedestrians here in DC.

In a car situation, the car would have to honk its horn which is much more interrupting to people trying to sleep then small 'vmmm' which is only hearable in a small radius around the car.

I drive a hybrid and at least once I simply opened the window and said "excuse me" - people were surprised, but also happy to not hear the horn.

I lived in Beijing where the bikes weren’t very silent (not oiled very well, always squeaky) but the electric bikes would just come up silently from behind and almost nail you. Electric bikes with noise would be a great idea, even if it was just a squeak.

Bikes generally won't kill you in a collision.

I've always felt like bicycle and foot traffic should be in the opposite direction of car traffic so they have a better idea of what's coming next.

That’s why in nyc you always look both ways, even on a one-way street

It doesn't work for cycling. A couple of reasons why...

People pulling out of side streets have to either merge into the first lane of traffic, or cross that lane and merge into the second (generally). If you have cyclists coming against the flow of traffic at sometimes 20mph, that driver now has to cross 2 lanes of traffic, and always at least one.

Car drivers rarely give cyclists space (in the US) as it is when traveling the same direction. How unnerving would that experience be when what was a 10/15/20 mph difference in passing speed effectively doubles (and then some)?

I think the Renault Zoe makes the sound you are describing? Sounds a bit like a science fiction sound effect, a slightly metallic humming

I absolutely love it. It also gives nice feedback while driving, as acceleration sounds different from coasting, different from braking. Some of this is probably just unavoidable switching noise, but I can't help but feel it's also designed that way.

I have a Zoe, the noise is soft and stops above 30 km/h. I can turn it off with a switch if I want to. I've already noticed people being surprised when I pass them without the noise, so I keep it activated.

Yes, the Zoe, Leaf, and many other EVs are already compliant with this rule.

I believe under the EU rules, sound is only emitted up to 20km/h (12 mph).

> I believe under the EU rules, sound is only emitted up to 20km/h (12 mph).

Doesn't that make it pretty pointless then? Collisions below that speed are almost never fatal even for pedestrians.

I feel like it may actually be better for inattentive drivers to hit something at those kinds of speeds and jar them into being more careful in the future (and have their insurance rightfully dinged) than to have their first experience of their not paying attention causing them to hit something occur at a higher speed.

In my experience you hear the cars due to tire noise at velocities higher than that since electric cars still make quite a bit of noise driving at speed over asphalt.

I prefer not to be hit, even if it's not fatal.

Chronic nerve pain or lifelong paralysis doesn’t sound great

Then it's a good thing that almost never happens at such low speeds.

But it does happen at even moderately higher speeds. Isn't that the argument used to justify all of those traffic calming measures? Make people feel less safe so they act more safe? Doing this is exactly the opposite of that, so either one of them is wrong or the other is.

Above that speed you hear tires, wind, etc...

Friend has a Zoe and it makes perfect sense. When driving slow, like in a parking lot its amazing how futuristic it seems when he disables the "noise" - it's totally silent, very dangerous. So I think this is a good directive.

You can even change that sound in the Zoe, there's a list of different sounds you can pick from :)

Who's running largest car sound database where you can download sounds? Ridge racer? Ferrari? Good old Beetle or T-Ford etc.

The vehicles in science fiction might just have speakers too.. maybe there was never actually a physical reason for that specific noise. Hm.

The switching noise of the IGBTs is a good start, they are already associated with electric motors. Some nicely sounding harmonics can also be produced with it: https://youtu.be/-SDYdHzT7Qw

That's a Siemens ES64U2 if anyone wants to research it further. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EuroSprinter

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